Diana Kapp on Unstoppable with Kara GoldinI’m so excited to have my guest, Diana Kapp, on today’s episode of Unstoppable.

Diana is a friend of mine and she is a journalist and writer. She recently came out with an amazing children’s book called Girls Who Run the World, which features women founders and CEOs and their stories. The book gives kids an opportunity to see how women have become successful entrepreneurs.

On today’s show, Diana and I talk about the incredible female entrepreneurs she interviewed for Girls Who Run the World, how to support the next generations of female entrepreneurs, why hearing “no” and persevering anyways is essential to success, and much more.

You can Subscribe and Listen to the Podcast on Apple Podcasts. And be sure to leave us a Rating and Review!

Unstoppable with Kara Goldin on Apple Podcasts

“A lot of the women in the book talked about ‘it is not about who does it best or who wins first, it’s being the last man standing’.” – Diana Kapp

Show Notes:

  • How to succeed
  • Why girls need role models
  • How to find courage
  • The importance of representation
  • How to deal with rejection
  • Who become entrepreneurs
  • How to make decisions
  • How to raise money

“There’s so many ways to get to success, and the more unconventional probably the more successful you’re going to be. Honestly, because you have these experiences of getting tough.” – Diana Kapp

Links Mentioned:

Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Diana Kapp

“You’re going to hear a lot of hard knocks and you have to be able to withstand that.” – Diana Kapp

Transcript:

Kara Goldin: Hi everybody, it’s Kara Goldin from Unstoppable. We’re very, very excited to have Diana Kapp here. Hello?

Diana Kapp: Hello, so excited to be here.

Kara Goldin: Yes, very excited to have you here, and for those of you who don’t know, Diana Kapp is a friend of mine, but also the author of a great book that I was lucky enough to be a part of, a chapter in, called Girls Who Run the World: 31 CEOs Who Mean Business, and I wish you guys could see the book right now. It’s the cutest illustrated book ever, and it’s super, super great. It launched…

Diana Kapp: It came out in October.

Diana Kapp: Yeah, I’m three months in now.

Kara Goldin: And you have been on this whirlwind tour of meeting with all of these different groups, school groups. I mean, you can talk a little bit more about this, but I was just saying how I’ve just been incredibly impressed with everything that you’ve done to actually get the word out about the book, and if you guys haven’t seen the book or haven’t bought the book yet, definitely buy it. There’s, in addition to having a bit of a story about me in there, there’s also the entrepreneurs behind Rent the Runway, Stitch Fix, Pop Sugar, Glossier, Minted, SoulCycle, Bare Essentials, lots of great entrepreneurs. So yes, definitely have a look at that and read some of their stories. But I want to talk a little bit more about why you decided to launch the book as well, so can you talk a little bit about that?

Diana Kapp: Yeah. I mean, it definitely is a book that comes from a personal place. I just was, first of all, I was a young girl who didn’t have a really strong belief in herself, and I remember, I mean, even going back to third grade. I went to the career fair at my elementary school and there was like 50 workshops you could choose from, and I attended cake decorating and hairdressing.

Diana Kapp: Then it just, even though my mother worked, I lived in a traditional household where sort of my dad, who was kind of a prominent lawyer, all the accolades around work, always went to him and my mom did all the accommodating, and I just had thought a lot about women and how they feel about themselves in terms of what tables they belong at and how ambitious they can be. When I had a daughter who popped out of me, basically with her hands on her hips, she-

Kara Goldin: Who is such a force by the way.

Diana Kapp: She wanted a whiteboard for her fifth birthday, because she loves to do lists. I mean, she really is a powerful being, and I just kind of looked at her and I thought, “How is someone like this going to grow up in this world we have where we still have Forbes Magazine publishing a list that says 100 most innovative leaders in America and it’s 99 men and one woman?” So I wanted to change the conversation and help raise a generation of girls that expect to be the CEOs and the founders, and people like you that are going after things they’re passionate about. It’s not comfortable or typical for a girl to see herself in that role.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, absolutely, and I think your daughter is just such a force, as I said. I mean, she was, when you were interviewing me for the book, I remember us all sitting down and she was asking me as many questions as you were about lots of different sort of issues that she had and questions she had around starting a company and, “How do you know to focus on this?” And, “How do you build a company?” And, “Where did you come from?” And all of all of these things.

Kara Goldin: So I think it’s really interesting too, what you’re saying because, do you think that it can be taught. Or, you talked about your daughter just popping out. I mean, what do you think it was that made her just be different? Right? Was it you? Was it having males around her too that believe she could do it? Was it-

Diana Kapp: I mean, I do think a lot is your nature and sort of how you pop out is definitely, has a big weigh in factor. But for me, I had a real life turning point that changed how I saw myself, and what that was was when I was about 24 I was working in Washington. I was kind of doing the expected thing. I was working on the Hill. I was back home after college, and I just didn’t feel at all like I was pursuing my own path, and I didn’t feel independent, and I didn’t feel good about myself.

Diana Kapp: So I made this decision, “I’m going to move to the Bay Area completely by myself. I’m going to prove to myself that I can do it,” and I came here. I didn’t have a car, I didn’t have a computer. I would go to this coffee shop that was in, somewhere near the Castro where I would print out my résumés to send out to different places, and I would walk back up the Hill in my high heels, because I lived way at the top of twin peaks.

Diana Kapp: Anyway, surviving that experience was, just changed how I felt about myself. It’s like the resilience word that you often talk about. It was like I completely proved to myself that I am so tough. I can move to a new town. I can get employed, I can make it on my own, and that really changed everything for me.

Kara Goldin: Do you think that experience, just of, does everybody, that just takes a ton of courage, right? And I think, and resilience, and how do people find that? I mean, do you think that just by reading other people’s stories and hearing, I think that that’s really what I’ve seen in your book too, that, I’ve been to a couple of the book signings as well where you see these audiences of young kids. Your focus has been, I think not just on women like me who want to hear other stories about CEOs who have done it, but also on the tween and teen market. I mean, where do you think, I mean, how did you decide to really target that market?

Diana Kapp: Well, I think these messages start really young. 25% of middle school girls already believe they’ll never achieve their dream career, and then that number doubles by the time they get to high school. So girls really have, they come out with a fair amount of confidence and then culture erodes it, and it is things like they turn on the TV and they very rarely see women in the award shows winning the big awards, or they go to conferences and they’re never the key speakers. Even academic papers I’ve read have, like 80% of the citations are from male lead investigator. So all these things have an effect.

Kara Goldin: Yeah.

Diana Kapp: It’s like subtle, subtle, subtle, but it adds up to, “I don’t belong. This isn’t, women don’t do these things, they don’t make the big inventions and discoveries.” Like, who are the household names that girls know today? They know Jeff Bezos, they know Mark Zuckerberg.

Kara Goldin: That’s so true.

Diana Kapp: There’s women that are kicking ass and doing so many impressive things, disrupting every industry you can think of, and a whole bunch of them are in my book and they are not, these are not the people that we know.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, that’s so true.

Diana Kapp: Most of these people remain unknown. So, I also think that the reason to focus on girls is they are reading books at that age that are about pioneering women, but they’re reading about Amelia Earhart and Marie Curie and kind of these pioneering women of the past. There are working women today that are doing just as daunting and risk taking and courageous acts, and they should know about them. It’ll affect how they think about what’s possible. I really believe that.

Kara Goldin: It’s interesting. I mean, you know the story about my son, came to me, my 17 year old when I think he was 12, and said, “Mom, I just realized that women aren’t CEOs.” I was like, “Where’s he going with that?” Right? Like, he’s saying this to me at the dinner table and he said, “I was listening to Sheryl Sandberg talk about, ‘Women are CEOs of companies,’ but you’ve always been a CEO. So why is it that there aren’t more women CEOs.” I didn’t have a good answer for them, because I really believe that that’s wrong, that more women should be CEOs. But how many women or how many girls out there are hearing that statistic and saying, “Oh gosh, I’m never going to be able to do it.” Right?

Diana Kapp: Yeah.

Kara Goldin: It’s just, and so it’s sort of counter to maybe what women are trying to achieve too by saying like, “Oh, there’s only this many,” because what is that message that’s actually getting to this young teen audience too. Instead we need people like you and like Girls Who Run the World to sort of say like, “Wait a minute, there might not be as many, but here’s some examples and you should go do it too.”

Diana Kapp: There’s a lot of really important, I think parenting ideas that come out of this book too, because girls are, they’re good at school and they’re good at following the rules, and there’s this whole kind of perfectionist thing going on right now that’s about how girls should be and they should be pleasers. That is like the opposite kind of personality traits that make for an interesting, compelling entrepreneur. You have to be willing to be contrarian. You have to be willing to have people tell you, “No,” over and over again and keep coming back.

Diana Kapp: I mean, you’ve lived this, but I think that is not the message that we’re getting to girls. The message that girls get is, “Get the good grades, be the good girl, be a perfectionist,” in this parenting culture now where you have to be good at everything. I think so much of what we have to let girls be is, just free up girls to kind of be messy, make mistakes.

Kara Goldin: Try things, yeah.

Diana Kapp: Let them take risks and try things, and if they hate some activity they’re doing, quit it and try something new. That’s not where we’re at as a society, and I think it, I mean, it’s the same thing for boys, but I think it has a much bigger, harmful effect on girls, because they’re sort of, they’re more inclined to sort of be the pleaser and need to have that outside external acknowledgement that they’re good or that they’re-

Kara Goldin: That’s true. Did you see a consistent thread amongst these entrepreneurs and CEOs that you were-

Diana Kapp: These women in this book have just insane amounts of moxie. moxie has become my favorite words since I’ve had the book out, and I love telling this story about Jenn Hyman of Rent the Runway and how, when she scored this meeting with Diane Von Furstenberg, right when she just had the idea to launch this rental business. She’s driving to Manhattan, and she’s been told by Diane, “I’ll see you for half an hour on Friday afternoon.” She’s driven down from Boston, and when she’s 10 minutes outside of Manhattan, her cell phone rings. She picks it up, it’s Diane’s assistant and she says, “Hey, I’m so sorry, but this meeting isn’t going to be able to go forward, and Diane’s really sorry. She’s actually not even going to be able to reschedule.”

Diana Kapp: Jen has, at that moment, she has the wherewithal to just hold the phone there and say, “What? What? I don’t hear you. The cell phones cutting out. I’ll be there in 10 minutes,” and it was, that’s some like deep inner, “I believe in myself, and I’m, you know what? I don’t care what the rules are. I’m showing up anyway. I’m living my own life,” and she did show up.

Diana Kapp: One question that she asked herself at that moment, it’s such a good tip, is, she asked herself, “What is the worst thing that could possibly happen?” When you’re thinking about taking a risk or doing something a little on the edge, if you ask yourself that and you play out the possibilities, then it just isn’t so bad. She was like, “Okay, I could get escorted out, or I could never get in the door, or I could make a fool of myself and I’ll be really embarrassed, but none of that’s so bad.”

Kara Goldin: Yeah.

Diana Kapp: But the women in the book really do have that kind of, a little bit of like, “Everyone’s turning left and I’m willing to go right.”

Kara Goldin: Yeah, and the moxie of it.

Diana Kapp: I mean, some of that came from having parents that just let them follow weird passions, like one of my favorite entrepreneurs in the book is Jesse Genet. She has this packaging business down in LA called Lumi, and she became obsessed with screen printing and her parents went with it. Like she was filled, the whole basement with weird printing implements and trying all these techniques. She even left high school after junior year and went out to LA to sell t-shirts because she made this case to her parents in a PowerPoint that there was more stores per square mile in Los Angeles, so that’s why you had to sell the tee-shirts there and not in Detroit, where she lived.

Kara Goldin: I loved that story, yeah.

Diana Kapp: But now she’s making boxes for Casper and for Stitch Fix, and she’s killing it. You know?

Kara Goldin: Mm-hmm.

Diana Kapp: She just had this unconventional upbringing where she was falling in love with printing. It’s a weird passion, but you got to go with that, and her parents went with that, or like Sara Blakely of Spanx always tells the story of how her father would ask the dinner table, all the kids at the dinner table, “What was your big failure today?” And then whatever they said, he would high five them.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome.

Diana Kapp: It’s just, we need to normalize that it’s cool to make mistakes, and that’s how you learn, that’s how you move things forward.

Kara Goldin: I remember when I was getting cold feet about moving to New York. I grew up in Arizona, and I remember the day before I was leaving, I said to my dad, “I don’t think I’m going to be able to do it.” I had gotten a job at Time, and I was all set up to go out there, and I had a couple thousand dollars. I figured I’d get a paycheck and then I’d be able to pay my rent and stay with a friend before I ended up getting an apartment, and I remember just freaking out, just thinking like, “I don’t know if I can actually do this,” and my dad said to me like, “Well, what’s the worst that’s going to that could happen if you went out there?”

Kara Goldin: I talk about this a lot, it’s some of the best advice. I mean, you talked about parenting advice in the book too, and I think I end up saying that to my kids all the time, and they’re like, “Yeah, that’s true.” Like, “What is the worst that could ultimately happen?”

Kara Goldin: So for me, my dad was like, “Every time you get into a situation where you’re trying to figure out should you or shouldn’t you, sometimes it actually boils down to should you be making, if you end up making a decision to do something, how much money could you ultimately lose?” So even in managing the team, all the hint team I’ll say like, “Go ahead and try it if it’s not going to be that much money.”

Kara Goldin: If you can evaluate, for me, moving to New York was like, “Okay.” I mean, I remember my dad saying to me, “Okay, figure out how much your lease is going to be.” You’re not going to have any furniture anyway, so that’s not that. Even if you had to walk away and leave the furniture, I mean, you’re buying stuff from Ikea or whatever, and it’s not going to be that expensive.”

Diana Kapp: Low sunk cost, yeah.

Kara Goldin: Right, low, and then a one way ticket. I remember him saying like, “Figure out what a one way ticket is from New York back to Phoenix,” and when I figured it out, it was a lot of money to me. It was probably like $10,000, and he was like, “But that’s like an a really important life lesson that you’re going to learn on risk.” You know?

Kara Goldin: So anyway, I think that there’s so many things like that, that talking about from a parenting standpoint, but also just more people need to be told to just go and take those risks, because I think you’re right. Like, we don’t do that in school. Like, it’s very, I would say like art classes used to tell people. I remember in my art classes they’d say, “Go take risks.” But other than that, people didn’t, you know. That’s the only class I had where people were saying, “Go take risks.” Otherwise, it was-

Diana Kapp: I mean, think about the New York story, because it reminds me a lot of my moving here to California. Your dad had to withstand that idea that you might be uncomfortable, you might be insecure, you might be sad and lonely. But he let you go and almost pushed you to go, and that experience probably completely shaped you to think like, “I can do many things I never knew I could do.”

Kara Goldin: No, totally.

Diana Kapp: It’s, a lot of the women in the book talked about, like, it’s not about who does it best or who wins first. It’s like being the last man standing. Like, you just have to just take the punches, and the punches, and the punches, and then just keep moving forward one tiny step at a time. I can’t think of a woman in the book who got the funding the first time around, who doesn’t have a story where they got like the 30 “no”s.

Diana Kapp: Katrina Lake at Stitch Fix has this story where her Harvard professor told her like, “That idea’s an inventory nightmare.” You know? She just had the wherewithal to say, “You know what?” I really believe in it and I’m, we’re going to change the way people buy clothes. But you’re going to hear a lot of hard knocks and you have to be able to withstand that, and that only comes from having a hard experience like moving to New York city all by yourself.

Kara Goldin: And trusting your gut too, and I think the only way that you can ultimately trust your gut is to experience failure and know that you can come back.

Diana Kapp: Yeah.

Kara Goldin: Right? I mean, I think about all of those stories in your book. I mean, it’s really, some of them I knew, some of them I didn’t know, but I think that for me is such a consistent thread, where they had some hard knocks. I mean, Leslie Blodgett I know before she ended up really taking over the reins at Bare Essentials. I mean, she had some hard knocks there too, right?

Diana Kapp: Yeah.

Kara Goldin: So I think it’s just, it’s figuring out like, “What else can we do?” And how to diversify so that you don’t run into a problem that’s really going to have a massive effect if it is a failure. I think all of stories along the way are super, super important.

Diana Kapp: I mean, Leslie is such a great example to girls, to know that, like she didn’t come up on some pristine path where she went to a prestigious university or even necessarily did well in school at all. She transferred a couple of times. She studied modern dance. So I think that this idea that there’s, like, “You have to do the right thing,” and that there’s only one way to succeed is a really good message that girls have to know and parents that, “You know what?” That there’s so many ways to get to success. You know? And the more unconventional, probably the more successful you’re going to be honestly, because you’ve had these experiences of getting tough.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, absolutely, and I think it’s also figuring out what’s good for you, like, I know Sara Blakely’s story for example. I mean, she went to a lot of people to go and get funded, and I heard her speak at a conference, talking about this, and I kind of chuckled. Like she said, what she figured out after she heard so many “no”s was that she was actually talking to a whole group of men about wearing pantyhose.

Diana Kapp: Right.

Kara Goldin: Men don’t wear pantyhose, so why was she going to them to ultimately fund her business idea? I mean, it’s sort of a very similar story with him when I was going and talking to people about my Diet Coke addiction. I mean, the majority of people who have had an addiction or a strong liking to Diet Coke had been women, and that’s really been the target. So I’m talking to guys about a Diet Coke addiction, and unless they’ve actually lived with that-

Diana Kapp: Right, they just don’t see it. Yeah.

Kara Goldin: You know, maybe their wife or their mom or whatever, they really don’t see it. So I think that for me, just hearing Sara’s story, it really helped me just think like, “I’m not alone.” Right? Like, “This is also,” but also, if I were to go and advise other entrepreneurs who were trying to raise money, I’d think about like, “Are they your audience?” Because I think that’s really, really important in going out and raising money. It’s like, if you’re going out because they happen to be the big VCs in Silicon Valley, and you’re going and getting a bunch of “no”s from those people, maybe that’s just not your audience. Maybe like, why would they fund your business if they don’t ultimately get what you’re doing?

Kara Goldin: That’s, you know, and I think once in awhile the checks come in just because you’ve done a business before, and they want to be involved or you happen to be married to somebody that they actually want to fund, and that’s the way that stuff works. I mean, it’s crazy, but it’s true.

Diana Kapp: It’s a good argument for why we really need more women to go work in venture capital, because you do need to relate to the idea and there’s so few women working in venture capital. It’s awesome that these places like All Raise are really trying to set goals and really change the percentages, because-

Kara Goldin: No, I think it’s huge. But I mean, today it hasn’t been that way, and I think more and more it needs to really, it totally helps the argument for sure. So one thing that you talk about in your book is the rub off effect. I mean, we’ve talked a tiny bit about this, but can you explain a little bit more about that?

Diana Kapp: Like this sort of exposure effect, and one of the studies that I read about that I just think is so, that really strikes me is this study about patent holders. So they matched patent applications with zip codes and they figured out that girls that grow up in zip codes that have a large number of female patent holders are something like 76% more likely to become a female patent filer themselves.

Diana Kapp: So, we are affected. Like, “You can’t be what you can’t see,” is this line everyone uses, and it’s true. You get really affected by what’s around you and what kinds of things people are doing, and it sets the tone for what you decide to set your sights on. I really believe that, and that is a rub off effect.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome, super, super-

Diana Kapp: One thing I think is, with my book we talk a lot about that this is just something that girls need to be seeing. But actually, I think guys need to be seeing that females are kicking ass and becoming entrepreneurs and doing some of the most impressive businesses of our day. I think there’s way too many males. They need to be part of the solution by seeing that it’s just as possible for a woman to hold this job when they’re thinking about who to hire, and, you know.

Diana Kapp: So, I think we need to teach our boys too. Like, if we had a book full of male, interesting male inventors, we would never think twice that a girl, that that book wouldn’t be for a girl. But there’s this funny double standard where people kind of look at my book and they’re like, “Oh, you would never want to give that to a boy.” Why shouldn’t they read about what Sara Blakely has done?

Kara Goldin: Is this your next book?

Diana Kapp: It might be. I mean, I had the cutest boy in Washington, DC. I was speaking at at Whitman High School and he was, I said, “I’m sorry to put you on the spot, but what did you think about this kind of feminist book?” And he’s like, “Well, I have to tell you. Mrs. Kapp, I’m a feminist,” and it was just so, it was so cute. He was like in ninth grade, hadn’t gone through puberty.

Diana Kapp: But I think that the messages of #MeToo and all of this, they are getting through, and I think that guys today, they want to figure out how to be kind of helping the situation and helping elevate women, and not have a society that’s got so many strange gender dynamics that are difficult for women.

Kara Goldin: Yeah.

Diana Kapp: I mean, I think about the son I’m raising. I don’t know what you think, but he’s so woke to this issue, and he wants to do the right thing and help, not hinder.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. Well, and he’s had a strong mom. I think that’s the challenge. I mean, to my earlier point, it’s like they hear this messaging out there and they’re confused by it. Right? They may not articulate that they’re confused by it, but they are confused by it, because they feel like, “Why is it that there’s such a small percentage? Why aren’t there more women VCs?” Like, you know, and while they have strong role models, female role models around them, whether it’s strong sister or strong mom, I think it’s still something, that they would love to be a part of it, but I think that the messaging, I don’t know.

Kara Goldin: I think about this actually a lot, that I think that the messaging does need to change in some way to sort of activate people to go and do something about it, and being a feminist as a male is okay, there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, my son questions, he plays a ton of tennis and he questions all the time like, “Why are we still having male teams versus female teams in tennis?” Like, “Why don’t we,” there’s female tennis players that he’d much rather play tennis with than certain guys.

Diana Kapp: Right.

Kara Goldin: I mean, he’s a senior in high school.

Diana Kapp: Right.

Kara Goldin: Right? And it’s still separate, and he just doesn’t understand it. I mean, the argument used to be that you couldn’t have tennis players, like women weren’t as strong, but we’ve proven that to be incorrect. Right?

Diana Kapp: Mm-hmm.

Kara Goldin: So the fact that we’re actually looking at genders and making sure that they’re still separated, and in schools, I mean, we’re not even talking about professional teams. Like, why is that the case? He’s questioning that stuff. I mean, I think that it will change, and I don’t think that we’re going to still be talking about male soccer teams versus female soccer teams forever. Right?

Diana Kapp: I’m so optimistic. I feel like I, going around and talking to these big groups of young women today and looking at what’s going on. Everyone’s looking to Greta Thunberg, who’s leading the charge on climate change, or before that it was Emma Gonzalez, and she was on every television talking about gun control, and the number of women running for office. The fact that are, right now, both stock exchanges are run by women.

Kara Goldin: Totally.

Diana Kapp: Things are, they are changing and all the new tools that make things so much more accessible, like you can learn almost anything online, make it easier for women. They lower the barriers to entry, and I do think there’s never been a better time to be female and that things are going to change. There’s so much momentum.

Kara Goldin: Definitely. No, I think it’s true, it’s exciting, but I think it needs to, but I think activating the male audience though is totally imperative.

Diana Kapp: Yeah. One, Jesse Genet said like, “Every room you go into as a female in business, find a male mentor, find a male advocate. Don’t just say, ‘I’m just going to have women as my sisterhood,’ because that automatically takes away so much power,” and that’s another really good piece of advice. Like, “You know what? Get the males on your side and use the males, work with the males and have them be part of the whole situation.”

Kara Goldin: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s absolutely critical. So, tell me a little bit about 2020 for you, so possibly another book in there you’re working on.

Diana Kapp: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know yet whether I want to do a follow on volume two. There certainly are so many women I would still like to write about. Sometimes I think about, “Should I do girls who save the world or something that’s a little bit more with a social mission?” But, I don’t know. Right now, I’m honestly, I’m so focused on getting the book out there and there still are a lot of opportunities for me to go, whether it’s entrepreneurship, education, getting in front of Girl Scouts or the National Coalition of Girls’ Schools. There’s just, there’s a lot of appetite right now for this book and girls, so that’s what I’m doing. I don’t know. I feel like a little bit like I’m a mouse on a wheel and I’m just going, going, and I don’t know exactly where.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. But it seems like everything that you’re doing is just, it’s getting traction, in the way, and people are talking about it, which is really, really great.

Diana Kapp: One thing that’s been so cool for me is just the number of interesting women I’ve met over the past year, and every city I go to, I don’t have to have moderate a panel with women that are in the book. I can moderate a panel with any woman that’s a leader or a CEO in that area. So I’ve, going around I’ve really some interesting people, and that’s been, that’s the highlight.

Kara Goldin: What’s been the most surprising thing that you’ve heard at some of these talks? Like, have you, you know? Has there been backlash against-

Diana Kapp: One story that I heard recently that I absolutely love is I met the Salt & Straw founder, Kim Malek, up in Portland. Do you know what Salt & Straw is? It’s an ice cream brand, and I think they now are up to like 20 stores, but she opened in Disneyland and she has, it is now the most successful ice cream store, not just in America, in the world.

Kara Goldin: Wow.

Diana Kapp: When she went into, it’s like a little village that’s down in Disneyland, and when she took her managers down there to open up this new store, they’re from Portland. So they’re like tattooed and pierced from head to toe, and the Disney people were like, “No, no, no,” and she was like, “Yes, yes, yes.”

Kara Goldin: Oh, interesting.

Diana Kapp: So she really, and they ended up. Like, they did let them work there, and now a couple of the other brands that are in this little faux village, they’re also, their employees are also wearing what they want and have, being themselves.

Kara Goldin: Changing cultures.

Diana Kapp: Yeah, and I just love that about her, that she kind of had that, she was just like, “You know what? Take it as it is or I don’t need to be here.”

Kara Goldin: Yeah.

Diana Kapp: You know, “This is who we are, and these are my best people, and that’s who they are.” So, I love that story, and I think that’s a really cool story.

Kara Goldin: That’s amazing, and obviously an unstoppable one. We should interview some of these people for-

Diana Kapp: I could give you a long list of unstoppables.

Kara Goldin: No, definitely. So, and what makes you unstoppable? What is your gift that, I mean, I think I know what it is, but I’m-

Diana Kapp: I think I’m just really scrappy, like I’m just really willing to like, I’ll do the drudge work. I’m very like a one-woman show, and that is from 20 years as a freelance writer where you just have to pitch and sell yourself, and get so many “no”s, and just kind of being willing to like do whatever it takes, and I think that’s when I felt like, “Wow, I’m kind of an entrepreneur.” That’s a little bit what this has felt like, because it really is like you do everything, you do all the marketing, the social media, you write the book. I plan events, you know? It’s like everything, you know?

Kara Goldin: Yeah, you just jumped down and done everything.

Diana Kapp: I’ll be going into event planning.

Kara Goldin: Yes, I love it.

Diana Kapp: That’ll be my next chapter.

Kara Goldin: I love it. It’s so great. So, well, this is terrific, and again, if you guys have not gotten a hold of this book yet, definitely order it on Amazon. Is that the best-

Diana Kapp: Order it on Amazon, or even better is to go into your indie bookstore because we all need to support the bookstores and small businesses, and keep them in business. If they don’t have it, tell them to order it. It’s great all around.

Kara Goldin: Girls Who Run the World, Diana Kapp. Thank you so much.

Diana Kapp: Thank you, Kara. Fun to talk to you.