Heidi Zak on Unstoppable with Kara GoldinMy guest today, Heidi Zak, is the Co-Founder and Co-CEO of ThirdLove bras (an amazing company that creates perfect bras for busy women).

ThirdLove is one of the fastest growing brands in the country, and it is funded by Tier 1 investors.

The brand has been recognized as a huge disruptor in the $100 billion global market.

On today’s show, Heidi talks about what it has been like to grow and scale the business, how she created such a successful company, the moment she came up with the idea to start ThirdLove, her tips to hiring the right people, and so much more.

I think you’re going to learn a lot from today’s episode! 

You can Subscribe and Listen to the Podcast on Apple Podcasts. And be sure to leave us a Rating and Review!

Unstoppable with Kara Goldin on Apple Podcasts

“If you can’t tell me in one sentence why I should care as a customer, nobody is going to listen. It is too busy.” – Heidi Zak

Show Notes:

  • What is ThirdLove
  • Branding for women
  • How to improve customer service
  • How to build brand awareness
  • What to communicate to your customers
  • When to raise capital
  • Who to hire

“You just have to keep at it, be positive, and just keep on pushing through and trying new things. Hopefully at some point, one thing will work. Take that one thing and really focus on it and try to do it really well and grow with that ONE THING.” – Heidi Zak

Links Mentioned:

  • Connect with Heidi Zak:

Facebook | Instagram | Twitter | ThirdLove

“If you go throughout your day and haven’t thought about your bra once, then ThirdLove has done its job well.” – Heidi Zak


Kara Goldin: Hi everybody. It’s Kara and we’re so excited to have our next guest on Unstoppable with Kara Goldin. It’s Heidi Zak who’s the founder, co-founder and co-CEO of Third Love. Welcome Heidi.

Heidi Zak: Hi, Kara.

Kara Goldin: Super excited. Heidi is a friend of mine too and I’m super excited to have you here today to sort of talk a little bit about the brand. So just for the listeners, just a couple of points on Heidi. So you know, I think that the key thing to know about her, I feel like there’s a lot of similarities in the story of Hint and sort of, doing something crazy to actually, you know, leave an industry that, especially in Silicon Valley, everybody’s in tech and you left that to go found a product that you really saw a problem or a category that you really saw a problem in.

Kara Goldin: And when I think of the Third Love, I think it’s just you’ve done a bunch on the backend on the technology side, but it’s really innovating the bra and underwear industry into, you know, which is $100 billion global market into really doing something that is unique and fun. And we’ll talk about your advertisements and some of your branding that you guys just did in New York too. But anyway, so welcome. Welcome. Super excited. So how did you come up with the Third Love brand overall? Like how did you think about, well first, like how did you think about this problem and why did you start it?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, so I think similar to Hint and the story you tell, right? It stemmed from seeing a need in the market. And at the time I was at Google and I had to buy a bra last minute and I did what I had been doing for, I don’t know, 15 or 20 years, which was go to the mall, down near Mountain View, not near the Google office. And drove there, found myself in a Victoria secret and walked in there wondering what I was doing. But it was what I had always done for most of my adult life. And so went in there, ended up with a bra that didn’t really fit, but I settled as I usually did, kind of laughed. And the moment of really realizing there was a big opportunity was when I took the Victoria’s Secret bag, the pink striped bag, and looked at it and was like, I’m embarrassed to be carrying this bag and this brand. It doesn’t represent who I am as a person. And I stuffed it into my backpack. And that night I went home and I told my husband, I said, I feel like I have this amazing idea because, bras, no woman likes Bra shopping. And certainly the brand Victoria’s Secret is not resonating with your average what I call modern woman and nobody’s doing it. So let’s create something. And I had this idea and that was really how it all started.

Kara Goldin: And Third Love, like how … Did you use a naming agency?

Heidi Zak: I wish.

Heidi Zak: Yeah, no. We did a lot of whiteboarding and had a lot of names on a wall and did a of trademark kind of looking into, you know, what we could get the trademark for and came up with a Third Love. And really the idea was this creating a third option. So the idea that there is a B and C cup and we created a B and a half, there’s the idea, you can either have comfortable or beautiful but you can’t have both. And we did create that, this idea that, you know, creating something new, this Third Love in everything we do. And that was really how the name came about.

Kara Goldin: And I love it.

Heidi Zak: Yeah.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome. And you’re based here in San Francisco.

Heidi Zak: That’s right.

Kara Goldin: So, but as we talked briefly about, so obviously you’re an internet based brand and you incubated here in San Francisco, but you’re nationwide. Are you outside of the US yet or ?

Heidi Zak: We ship internationally. It’s not a huge portion of our business, but we actually have four offices now. So one in San Francisco, one in Chico, California, one in Argentina, and one in Hong Kong. So we’ve expanded.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome. So, and I saw a campaign on Instagram, so you’re doing a bunch in New York and the subways. So tell me a little bit more about that. How did you decide to pick New York as the city and?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I mean we’ve actually had never done any out of home advertising, so this was completely brand new for us and we really wanted to kind of take some of the learnings from our customers and come out with something new and different. And it actually really came about from this customer and her name was Hope. She wrote in a note, an email to our fit stylist, which got forwarded to me. And then the email, she said, “I’m an avid Third Love customer. I love your product. I’m 50 years old, I got your catalog in the mail.” It’s like, okay, good targeting, right. “I got your catalog in the mail. And I was flipping through. It’s beautiful, but there’s no women over the age of 30 in your catalog. And like I’m 50 I look great. Where am I, where am I represented?”

Heidi Zak: And she attached a photo of herself in her Third Love bra. She looked great, you know, and so I think an average company, you know how it goes, might just say, oh, thanks for the feedback. Something something. Right. And so the note got forwarded to me and we basically said, let’s reach out to Hope and see if she’ll be a model for us and be in our next catalog. And so emailed Hope and said, “Will you come up to San Francisco and do a photo shoot?” So she came up, we filmed her, she did video content photography and she’s now like in emails, you know, on Instagram.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome. Had she ever done anything like that?

Heidi Zak: No.

Kara Goldin: That’s so great.

Heidi Zak: But it was awesome. And so we had her in and then that’s kind of set the stage for what are we showcasing to our customers that our brand is and how can we evolve that given sort of the breadth of customers that we have at this point in terms of ethnicity, size and life stage? Right. And we realized especially with life stage, we had been missing out because we have a lot of customers in their 20s, but we have a lot in their 40s and in their 60s. It’s very diverse. And so this To Each Her Own campaign, which came to life through subway takeovers in New York, it has about eight women showcased, they’re all real women. So we found them on the streets of Brooklyn. We did street casting, they were real women. One or two of them were actually randomly Third Love customers but, and one woman’s in her 60s one woman’s breastfeeding her child and it’s a real diversity-

Kara Goldin: How did you cast those people? Like, say “Hi, we’re from Third Love and do you want to wear your bra?”

Heidi Zak: Like would you be, would you be comfortable wearing a bra and talking a little bit about who you are, right. Just like, and so it was just an interesting mix of kind of backgrounds and what they were doing for a living and all kinds of things. And so they were featured both in, so the sort of the photography as well as our new commercial that we just launched. So it’s cool to see it come to life. Yeah.

Kara Goldin: So I haven’t seen the commercial yet. When does that?

Heidi Zak: It’s on, it’s nationwide, but you know. All over the place.

Kara Goldin: So, and the goal is really brand or is it more on the direct to … can you buy it over? Well, it’s harder. Right?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I mean it’s more of a branding campaign, but obviously-

Kara Goldin: Pushing people into the app too.

Heidi Zak: Exactly.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. That’s awesome. And so I feel like, you know, you talked a little bit about this with Victoria’s Secret and how, you know, there were definitely perceptions whether people talked about it, but there were perceptions of pink and sort of, you know, too sexy and real people bringing real people into this campaign with To Each Her Own. What do you think is like the, I mean, where do you think this goes around like underwear and just overall? I mean, I remember when I was growing up probably, you know, scarily in high school it was like the Calvin Klein people.

Heidi Zak: Well, I would say it’s still all over the place. So I actually think the marketing we saw when we were younger. Yeah. I always think back to the Calvin Klein, Marky Mark, Kate Moss ads, right? And if you look today, it’s the Kardashians. It’s a little bit different, but sort of the same story.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, sort of the same.

Heidi Zak: So, I mean the product, I mean Calvin Klein’s product is a bit more basic. Meaning it’s a lot of it’s cotton, where Victoria’s Secret’s not. But I think the idea of selling sex is still going really strong in the industry. I actually don’t think it’s changed as much as I would have thought over even the past few years. But I think that other brands are helping to push change. You know, it’s not just us, certainly. There’s a lot of other brands doing interesting things in this space. But I think the big players actually haven’t really changed yet. And so it remains to be seen sort of what happens I guess. But Victoria’s Secret’s fashion show is coming up in the next month and you know, we’ll see what they do. I think that’ll be a lot of what they’ve done in the past.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. Interesting. That’ll be very interesting to see. So moving away a little bit from the brands side for a second. So you just opened an office in Chico, are you guys producing in the US or?

Heidi Zak: No, we produce in Asia. The Chico office is all of our fit stylist. So one of the things we learned kind of about maybe a year and a half ago is as we started scaling really quickly, we originally had all of our fit stylists, our customer service in San Francisco and then when the business took off we couldn’t keep up of hiring and training. So we started outsourcing and we moved to the Philippines.

Heidi Zak: And then about two months in we just realized, wow, the customer services is not up to like our standards of what we promised to deliver to customers. And we had to pull out of the Philippines and we opened an office in Chico in legitimately three weeks and took a, subletted a space downtown in Chico, hired 20 a class of 20 started training. You know today we have a huge office in Chico. It’s 150. we’re doubling that office. Everything is in house because the customer experience is so, so important to delivering on our promise to the customer, which is we’re going to help you find something great. And that means that one on one interaction with somebody who really knows what they’re doing. So with bras it’s confusing. So we have a very extensive training and period for our fit stylists so that they are truly experts in anything a customer might reach out to.

Kara Goldin: So it’s basically in house.

Heidi Zak: It’s all in house.

Kara Goldin: Your in house customer service department. That’s great. So that is definitely, so have you seen your retention so much higher?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I mean definitely I think customer happiness and just, you know, the NPS associated with kind of every customer interaction that we’ve had has gone up dramatically. So.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome. So would you say that that was one of your biggest challenges in sort of like, along the way? I mean, we laugh because I think that’s always a tough question. There’s always when you’re starting your own company and-

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I think there’s always, as you know, there’s always issues on some smaller, in some bigger. I think the initial one was really in figuring out manufacturing. That was sort of the first hurdle. And then the second was really, I think figuring out product market fit. So at the time, you know, to call it early 20, late 2014 we had a great bra, but nobody was really buying it. I mean I can remember days where we would sit around the office refreshing like the platform to see orders and there was zero orders. Like I can remember a day when we had zero orders and it wasn’t that long ago. And it’s painful, you know, as a founder of a company when you know you have a great product and you’re just like, why doesn’t anybody know about it or why doesn’t anyone want to try it? It’s really hard. And that year of trying to figure out product market fit was probably like the hardest emotionally as well.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. So how do you, so for somebody starting in business and sort of feeling that way, like they’re listening to you and you know, they have those days where there’s zero orders. I mean, I remember when we were starting Hint 13 ago, like we’d get really excited when we heard the fax machine like coming over, like there were orders coming over from like the local grocery store and we’d be like, oh my God, how big is it going to be? And we’d make bets like internally, like what is that? And then when we actually launched online, I mean it was the same thing. How do you in an efficient way build awareness for the brand.

Heidi Zak: So I wish I could give an easy answer and I get a lot of founders reaching out to me sort of asking that. And I remember I did the same thing. I would talk to anybody I would meet like what do you do? How do you do it? You know, you’re trying to learn, you’re trying to listen. And you know, the hard answer is that every business is different and you’re probably going to have to test 50 or 100 things until you figure something out that works. And there is no silver bullet. And if there was, every business would be successful. And as we know, you know, we all know most startups fail and there’s a reason for that. Because it’s really, really, really hard. So I’d say the only thing I can say is that you could just have to keep at it, be positive and just keep on pushing through and trying new things. And hopefully at some point one thing will work and take that one thing and really focus on it and try to do it really well and grow with that one thing. Just try to find the one thing that works.

Kara Goldin: Well I think in your case too, it’s not just, I mean I always tell companies or entrepreneurs that come to me and say, you know, we built our store but nobody’s coming to it. And it’s like, I mean you really have to understand how to build people to want to come. Right. And that’s such a big thing. And I’m sure that your Google experience, I can’t imagine that that wasn’t helpful.

Heidi Zak: Yeah. I mean definitely understanding digital marketing is important, especially, especially if you have an online brand. But I think it’s more about what I think a lot of people forget about is you have to be able to communicate the value to the customer, what you’ve actually produced. And I think people really can get caught up and Facebook or Instagram or influencers or this or that. And we’re going to do all these things and like, that’s great, but if you don’t know what your message is that resonates with your end customer and why he or she should care, then you’ll never be able to sell a thing online.

Heidi Zak: And in this world we live in, it’s so, so busy and you think about your email, your promotional tab in your Gmail or just how much you hear or read or see on your Instagram feed or wherever. There’s a lot going on. And so you need to have a point of view why your customer cares, like what are you doing for them and why should they care? And what’s that in a very short tagline. And how do you communicate that? And I think if you can figure that out, you have a lot of potential to scale. But if you can’t tell me in one sentence why I should care as a customer, you know, nobody’s going to listen. It’s too busy.

Kara Goldin: Well, and I think it’s your differentiator to the Victoria’s Secrets or plug some other name in there. Like it’s like who actually knows why Victoria’s Secret started? I mean there’s very few people in our industry like nobody. I mean most people, even if you have a backstory, it’s not such a positive backstory like yours is, where you’re trying to solve that problem for yourself first and you wanted to bring, you know, shed light on this to other people. So I think it’s super cool.

Kara Goldin: So everybody always asks me, and we talk a lot about this on Unstoppable, but like funding the business. I mean there’s always, it’s scary, right? And I think you’ve done a really great job too and sort of building this in a way where you know, you’re still involved in the company that you didn’t have a group of investors that didn’t have faith in you to sort of take this to the next level. Can you talk a little bit about that sort of along the way?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I think we were really lucky to have patient investors and I think not everyone is so lucky and I absolutely think if you’re going to take outside money to start a business, you need to be really thoughtful about who your partners are and what their expectations are and make sure you’re aligned. And brands in particular, they take time to build. You’ve been doing Hint for a long time. I mean we’re six years into Third Love now. It wasn’t an overnight success. And so I think building a brand does take time. In terms of raising money, we did both. We went down the venture capital route. So you know, in total we’ve raised 30 million over three rounds. But have been fortunate to have really awesome partners who, including angel investors like Laurie Ann Goldman from the former CO of Spanx, right. And Bill McComb, who used to run basically Kate Spade and Liz Claiborne, right? So people who really understand retail, who understand consumers, who understand kind of how long it takes to build a brand and are more patient with that process.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, no, absolutely. So with everything that you’ve experienced, good and bad, what would you say is the most important thing that you’ve learned along the way?

Heidi Zak: I think relationships matter is something hugely important. And I actually tell this to a lot of people starting out in their career. It’s been so interesting to see sort of who’s come in and out of circles of different things we’ve been doing at Third Love through our community and how everyone’s tied together. And that’s one thing that I think, especially earlier in my career, I didn’t really think about. Every time you meet somebody, every time you work with someone, every time you’re at a cocktail party, you have a moment to connect with somebody to impress them, to do a good job. And especially in the worlds we live in, they’re so small that even hiring, right, it’s amazing what you can learn through friends of friends, about potential candidates. So I think the world’s small, both in who you hire, who investors are, et cetera. And so think about that and be thoughtful about how you create and craft relationships and how you represent yourself. I think it all comes back, you know, at some point.

Kara Goldin: Definitely. And do you think in terms of building the team, does your team look significantly different than it did when you first started? Oh, I get that question a lot too. You know, and sort of building up the team. It’s like what do you look for when you’re first starting out?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I mean it’s totally different where we were in 2014 versus today and I mean again it’s the scale of the business. I mean today we have 300 employees. In 2014 we had 10. So I mean you think about what the people, you look like who you hire, I mean you hire generalists, you hire people who don’t mind doing 50 things a day and kind of thrive on that energy. And then as you scale as a company, most people don’t necessarily scale or they just aren’t happy having a more narrow focus where you used to do all of marketing and used to do influencers and paid marketing and email marketing and content and a bazillion other things because you were the only marketer. And then when there’s the team is 30 marketers, that’s not going to be the world do you live in, you’re going to own a smaller area, be much deeper and hopefully be more analytical and more thoughtful when you have more resources and time to spend and look, that’s not the right fit for everyone.

Heidi Zak: So I think that’s okay. It’s okay to have people leave your company. It’s not a reflection. I think it’s hard as the founder, you know, in the early days I always struggled with, oh well if they’re leaving, you know, is it like, did I do something? And it, you know, sometimes it’s just like they need to move on in their careers and they’re maybe not the right fit at a moment in time. And I think it’s okay. I think everyone can learn at different moments. And we do have some people on the team who’ve been with us a really long time. Our chief creative officer was our first employee in 2012 and now she’s our chief creative officer, which is pretty amazing to see how she’s grown. And now she has a huge team she leads and it’s really awesome to see that.

Kara Goldin: But I think it’s also to your point, it’s generalists versus you know, people taking on these specific, you know, narrower focuses. But I feel like as we’re growing this team too, you know, I want more managers and people that can actually do check ins and grow teams.

Heidi Zak: Exactly.

Kara Goldin: I’m sure you have that same thing. As you get people in it’s they, you know, really want more and more direction. I was reading this article yesterday actually on millennials too and how the check ins with millennials is really, really important and how they’ve grown, millennials in general have grown up in a time when you know, the check ins even with teachers, they’ve just grown up in a way where that’s really important. Like how are you doing? And they’ve been taught that way. And so suddenly they get out of school and they come into work environments where managers are expecting them to take on tests and just go versus actually these check ins I think are really … Anyway, I thought it was an interesting.

Heidi Zak: I think especially with that, it’s about, you know, having that two way conversation because not everybody works in the same way. And so whether you’re a manager and managing teams or whether you’re the person who is being managed, it’s like if the person doesn’t know what your expectation is or what you need, then they can’t provide it. So you know, I think it works both ways. I mean we really talk about making sure our managers are asking teams like what can I do to make you more successful? Right? Like what do you need? Right. And then they should also be saying, this is what can help me be more effective? I think it works both ways. But yeah managing is not easy as we all know.

Kara Goldin: So what’s next for you and Third Love?

Heidi Zak: So we are, we launched this summer, we launched 25 new sizes, which brought our size, total is 70 so to put that in perspective, your average bra brand has 30 sizes. So really our mission is to have a size … Yeah. It’s a lot of SKUs and that’s, you know, not every style has all of those sizes but we strive to to have as many sizes per style. So yeah we have a lot of sizes. The opposite of water.

Kara Goldin: Is wire, wire versus non wire, is that a trend that goes that ebbs and flows versus like?

Heidi Zak: I think there’s been more in the non wired space with the idea of comfort. But again the idea … like we don’t do bralettes at Third Love. I mean I don’t think your average woman going to work can wear a bralette. So we really focus on sort of that bra you’re going to put on every day and wear out in your day or to work. So for us it’s a smaller percent of the business. But yeah, around size. I mean really that’s always been a focus for us to have a bra for as many women as possible. And that means size inclusivity. And I think that’s something that’s not discussed a ton in today’s environment, a lot of ads you see in marketing talk about inclusivity, et cetera in terms of the images you see. But then the question becomes when you go to somebody’s website or store, do they actually have product that you can wear that fits you? And so that’s really where we focus is size and inclusivity.

Heidi Zak: So continuing to add more styles and sizes, continuing to add more sizes, that’s big for us. We just launched cotton as a collection, which has been in the past two weeks, on fire. So again, just listening to the customers, they were requesting cotton. We have our first cotton bra, cotton underwear. That’s been awesome. So continuing to listen to customers, add new styles, slowly and thoughtfully and just, yeah, keep doing what we’re doing.

Kara Goldin: And where you get your biggest inspiration from? You know, is it the customers or?

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I mean think that I read a lot of our, you know, chats with customers and emails and just, I think that is, hearing their stories and seeing that we’ve been able to make them feel more comfortable, more confident, just more happy. Our goal is really, you shouldn’t think about your bra. Like if you go throughout your day and haven’t thought about your bra once then Third Loves done its job well. So it’s kind of the opposite of sort of being front and center. It’s more actually just being behind the scenes.

Kara Goldin: Do you feel like, I’m, I’m so curious about this because I have four teenagers, two girls, right. And I feel like there’s this, and I really haven’t had this discussion around like bras in particular, but I feel like if I’m wearing a brand, my kids, my girls won’t touch that brand and they will never actually say that. But it’s like if they see me wearing something like, I mean, God forbid, and I don’t do this, but if I walked into Victoria’s Secret and they’re not actually, they don’t shop at Victoria’s Secret either, but they would actually immediately, you know, turn off. I mean it’s sort of like this conversation around Facebook. Facebook is for your mom. It’s not for, I mean-

Heidi Zak: Totally.

Kara Goldin: Facebook wouldn’t want to hear this, but I mean that is like how the teenagers that I know, like they’re not-

Heidi Zak: They’re barely on Instagram.

Kara Goldin: Then they leave Instagram and then they go to Snapchat and whatever. I think that the same holds true for certain labels and certain brands. And so do you see that like from a recommendation standpoint?

Heidi Zak: we actually see the opposite though. I think the most examples I have are slightly older. So we’ve seen a ton of women who are in their 20s and 30s who they’re recommending Third Love to their moms or vice versa. So, you know, sometimes it’ll be the mom who’s maybe, however old who’s like, wow, this bra’s amazing and tells her daughter about it. She tries it or the daughter’s telling her mom. So we’ve actually a lot of multigenerational purchasing going on. Though, maybe it’s not as, it’s not so much the younger teen market I would say. It’s that kind of 20 and up market. But that’s an interesting-

Kara Goldin: Well, then I remember I had this conversation with the former CEO of Lululemon and they had developed this teenage line and because it was the same kind of thing, that I would wear Lulu. And then they, my kids were like, well I’m not wearing Lulu. Like they wouldn’t actually say this to me. And then I brought them home, this brand and I was up in Canada and they had a store up there and I brought them home the brand and I knew it was from Lulu, but I didn’t tell my kids this. And they were like, oh my God, I can’t wait for them to open a store here in the US. And then, and anyway. And so that brand grew, but then it was really interesting because they shut that brand down. They felt like they were building this whole brand that was focused on teens and at the end of the day it just was like, I mean, it’s expensive to build a brand, right? And so you build, you build this whole other brand living inside of your brand and is that the right thing to be doing? Because you have to go after a different market and whatever.

Heidi Zak: Totally. The money that it takes, right. To build a brand is enormous.

Kara Goldin: And if you have to meet the brand name that much different, like it’s like-

Heidi Zak: Yeah, I mean there’s a few examples I guess where it’s been successful like J Crew and Made Well did it, there’s a few, but there’s so many failures of that that you can think of it as well. So yeah, I think it’s an interesting point. I mean, again, yeah, not something I’m focused on at the moment. That exact reason.

Kara Goldin: So interesting. Well, if you ever want opinions on teenage girls, certainly you can come over in this direction. Okay. So what makes you unstoppable?

Heidi Zak: I think I have a lot of energy and determination. So I think that’s something that has always been just who I am innately. I mean, I grew up doing competitive gymnastics 20 hours a week, you know? So I think I always had a lot going on and I like my life like that. So I think in some ways that idea of constantly being busy is like who I am and sort of how I’ve managed to do a lot. And just, I think determination is, if you aren’t determined, you’ll never succeed as an entrepreneur. It’s sort of like no’s not an option. So it’s like, if no’s not an option, well then let’s just figure out how we’re going to make it work.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome. Okay, we’re going to do 10 rapid fires. Okay. Now, super fast. So what’s your favorite Hint flavor?

Heidi Zak: Watermelon.

Kara Goldin: Yay. What’s your favorite exercise?

Heidi Zak: Peloton. I’m obsessed with my Peloton. did it this morning.

Kara Goldin: Very cool. Do you have a favorite instructor?

Heidi Zak: I like Jen and I like one of the guys, I can’t remember his name, but I actually, they’re all really, they’re all good.

Kara Goldin: That’s awesome. What’s your fitness bucket list?

Heidi Zak: Oh, that’s a good one. I think learn how to surf. I started to try and do this in between my first and second kid. I took a few lessons and then it’s fallen off. So maybe when they get a little older I’ll have time to dedicate to like a one week surf camp in Hawaii or something. I don’t know.

Kara Goldin: That’s super fun.

Heidi Zak: It could be cool. Want to go?

Kara Goldin: I would love to go. That would be amazing. I would love to go do that. So mine’s kite surfing.

Heidi Zak: That looks hard.

Kara Goldin: I watch it and I just like get mesmerized by it. So just down on our beach here. So. Okay. What healthy habit makes you feel great about yourself?

Heidi Zak: I would say working out for sure though. I’ve been on this 30 day vegetarian kick. I’m in the middle of it. I think I’m on like day 15. I went to Exelon the other weekend and did this vegan thing, so we’ll see where that nets. But I feel pretty good about it right now.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. That’s awesome. You look good.

Heidi Zak: Thanks.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, you do. What habits sabotage your health?

Heidi Zak: Lack of sleep. 100%.

Kara Goldin: I feel the same way. Do you do catch ups where you’re just like out?

Heidi Zak: No, I really try to get eight hours a night most nights.

Kara Goldin: That’s good.

Heidi Zak: That’s a goal. Like generally I do pretty well unless I’m traveling and then everything falls apart.

Kara Goldin: Yeah, I’m in the same boat. So I came home from Atlanta yesterday and I literally like went in my house at 6:30 and I went to bed.

Heidi Zak: Wow.

Kara Goldin: Yeah. And then I woke up this morning and I’m back. So, but I do this thing where I go, go, go, go, go and then-

Heidi Zak: Crash.

Kara Goldin: Crash. iPhone or Android?

Heidi Zak: iPhone.

Kara Goldin: Oh, interesting.

Heidi Zak: I used to have an Android, but-

Kara Goldin: I’m sure you did. That’s funny. Top three most used apps on your phone.

Heidi Zak: Oh, Instagram, Gmail and maybe Good Eggs. Trying to think, Amazon, actually. I should say Amazon.

Kara Goldin: If you could only have one, which would it be? Facebook, Instagram or Twitter?

Heidi Zak: Instagram.

Kara Goldin: I love Instagram too. Although I like Facebook and Twitter too. So most recent movie you watched.

Heidi Zak: I literally don’t watch movies. I’d have to think about that.

Kara Goldin: What movie do you want to go see?

Heidi Zak: God? I don’t even know. Actually, I had recently I watched the Tonya Harding movie on the airplane back from New York. It was actually, I felt really bad for her. I mean, you remember what happened and sort of how you thought of her. And I didn’t really understand sort of how she was brought up and it made me feel, I don’t know.

Kara Goldin: Terrible.

Heidi Zak: I had a connection with her after that movie.

Kara Goldin: No, I totally agree. I had the same kind of-

Heidi Zak: You watched it?

Kara Goldin: Yeah. I watched it and I felt like actually what I really felt was that there was this, you know, discrepancy and sort of how I viewed it and really what the overall problem is with so many athletes and particularly women’s athletes, that it’s the people. It’s money. And it’s like how people are treated and if you have the best coaches. And I was a gymnast as well and you know, and the right uniforms and all that kind of stuff. And so I felt she was angry.

Heidi Zak: And rightfully so.

Kara Goldin: And rightfully so. And it was, and in spite of all of that, you know, she really came a long way, but she did sort of break along the way with a lot of other things. So, yeah. So that was the thing that I saw as well. So anyway, well thank you so much, Heidi. This was really, really fun. It’s always, whenever I do these talks, too, I feel like I get to know people even more along the way. And definitely if there’s other people that you think we should interview as well, I think it’s just, you know, getting your thoughts and viewpoints out too. But then also just like, I want to just help other people really get there, you know? How do they actually get out and do things too? I hear back from people constantly on these talks that it’s just like the, the little things that they pick up on are not necessarily the things that I thought were actually going to be the big things, but to let them know that it was like, you know, you didn’t just build this company of 350 people. You know, it’s just like, it had ebbs and flows along the way and yeah. So anyway, thanks so much.

Heidi Zak: Thanks for having me.