Jake Anderson: Co-Founder of FertilityIQ

Episode 312

If you’ve ever wondered if you could create a company out of a challenging personal experience, this is the episode you MUST listen to! Jake Anderson, along with his wife Deborah, Co-Founded FertilityIQ in 2015 after their own challenging, frustrating journey with fertility issues and miscarriages. They realized that reliable and unbiased resources and information was hard to come by and how unnecessarily complicated it all was. FertilityIQ was developed to help people with the data and wisdom needed to make better decisions. We discuss their journey in creating FertilityIQ plus you get to hear firsthand how determined, mission- driven entrepreneurs who have been through something that has been difficult can be just the people to create a company that truly helps so many. Get ready for a super discussion on this incredible episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I am so so thrilled to have my next guest. Here, we have Jake Anderson, who is the co founder of fertility IQ. And if you don’t know what fertility IQ is, you are going to be so so inspired. He and his wife, Deborah co founded the company in 2015, after they had their own journey, trying to figure out the whole fertility issue that exists in the world today. So after some fertility issues and miscarriages, they realize that reliable and unbiased resources and information is really, really tough to come by and how complicated it could be, for most people who are forced to go into this and and take a closer look at it. So fertility IQ was born to give people the data and the wisdom needed to help people make better decisions. And I’m super excited to have Jake, on we are friends as well. So if you hear us like going back and forth a little bit, and it seems casual and natural, that’s just because I think he’s terrific. And I’m really, really inspired by what he and his wife Deborah have created. So welcome, Jake,

Jake Anderson 1:59
thank you pumped to be here, Kara is awesome,

Kara Goldin 2:01
super, super excited. So I’ve known each of you for a few years. Now, like I said, I knew a little bit about what you guys were going through. But let’s start at the beginning. I’d love for you to kind of share with everybody who weren’t familiar with the company, but sort of like how this all came about. Yeah,

Jake Anderson 2:21
that’s great. So Deborah, and I got married pretty young, I guess, young for our generation, we were sort of, you know, late 20s, early 30s, you know, both of us wanted a family, both of us didn’t want a family, you know, immediately. And so what we had thought about doing was freezing embryos, not eggs, because we knew that we were going to use my sperm, and that I was going to be the genetic parent. And so we started to go through the embryo freezing process sort of preventatively. And to our astonishment, we just weren’t making high quality enough embryos and came to the realization that we had a major fertility issue on our hands, we individually didn’t have much life experience as people let alone as a couple. And so the process was just agonizing for us. It welled up all sorts of issues, money, sex, kids, that things people fight about all the time, it came to the fore immediately, it placed a lot of pressure on the relationship when we weren’t really prepared to absorb it. And, you know, for us, we sort of cascaded fertility clinic to clinic, we pretty much burned what little money we had in the process. And we just didn’t know people would been through the process, we ourselves were on the younger side, and sort of a little sheepish to talk about it. And likewise, you know, other people often don’t necessarily want to go there. So for us, we had a lot of difficulty just getting good, rigorous information. And we were personally really thrashing in the process. And so the remit for us really was, can we get people to type of information in the quality of information we ourselves needed at the time? And so that’s really where the the need harks from.

Kara Goldin 3:50
So I mean, you could find a clinic right? You could do a Google search and find it. But what was kind of the point that you felt like, is this the right place? Is it going to work? What was it that was kind of the stumper for you? You know, that’s

Jake Anderson 4:04
a really wonderful question. I think as you matriculate your way through the process, all of it feels awful and unusual. You’re getting asked very personal information. And the process can feel intrusive and invasive and expensive. So at no point are you settled and feeling oh, this is natural. I am where I’m supposed to be. I think the point where we started to realize we’re really probably not at the right place for us was when we started to see clerical issues coming up mistakes being made. We were starting to hear that some of the advice that we had been given the data didn’t support that it was necessarily the right information. For instance, the left Deborah’s IUD and, and there’s a lot of questions as to whether that was wise or not. So I think once we had one or two retrievals ultimately not culminate in embryos. We started to say, hey, this isn’t it’s didn’t fit You’re good. And the results haven’t been great. And maybe it’s time for us to, to look more broadly than we had. Suppose we live in San Francisco. And you know, there’s there, there are good clinics here. But that’s the point where we began to say, we need to hit the road, this is important enough and serious enough that we can’t ring fence ourselves to the places that are nicely just in our backyard, given our circumstances.

Kara Goldin 5:22
So knowing you a little bit, you were probably doing spreadsheets around, you know, what are the things that, you know, we would like to know, how do clinics stack up and medical care, I remember, when you and I sat down for coffee, you may not even remember this, but I was blown away by you telling me and how, like, the price varied so much. And then you didn’t even know if it was going to work. Right. I mean, there was just a state to state I should say that it was so varied. Do you remember that conversation? I mean, what was what were some of the things like that, that were just shocking state to state?

Jake Anderson 6:01
Yeah, yeah, I vividly remember it. And it’s, you know, even you know, seven years since we’ve talked still still true, the disparity in price is enormous, not even state to state, sometimes within the state or even within the same city. But for people who aren’t, you know, familiar, you know, the cost to do IVF, one cycle varies, but call it 15 to $25,000 usually need about two and a half cycles to bring home a baby, depending upon the age of the person with the whose eggs are being used. And so, you know, the grand total can be 50,000 bucks to bring home a baby from, from IVF. So, you know, that’s, that’s post tax dollars, right, for many people. And so the sums are, are staggering. You know, while the price clinic to clinic varies, the quality of the clinics varies dramatically in equally so, you know, we’re I think we’re of the view that if you go to a terrific place versus a mediocre place, the odds you bring home, a baby can be twice as high at the better place, really with the better laboratory. And so yeah, the prices are staggering, the disparity and dispersion around prices enormous besides the dispersion around quality, and they’re not always correlated, I think people assume I’m spending the most dough here, it’s got to be the best place. And I’m not burdened by data. But I’m not I don’t believe after years of doing this data necessarily supports that. Usually prices, the big gov for people, a lot of people have fertility challenges, they simply can’t find the dough to make this happen. And so there’s probably about half the people out there that could use treatment and benefit won’t won’t get it, just because it’s it’s totally inaccessible for them. And will

Kara Goldin 7:39
insurance, any insurance cover this, it

Jake Anderson 7:43
varies. The reality is, is if you live in one of seven states, including Illinois, New York, Massachusetts, Delaware, if you have your insurance through the insurance company, not through your employer, there’s a good chance or some coverage. If you work at a large progressive employer, there’s a good chance there are some coverage, but probably that that’s about 30% of the people that will try and get fertility treatment, the other 70% that could use it won’t have really much in the way of assistance, maybe some tasks will be covered some low level treatments, oral medication, but for the vast preponderance of people it’s it’s it’s not covered.

Kara Goldin 8:21
So you had worked in venture capital before you were at Sequoia, do you want to share a little bit more about what Deborah was doing?

Jake Anderson 8:28
Yeah, so I was sweeping the floors at Sequoia was probably the most junior junior person they had there. I don’t think I’m overstating that I was really changing the toner. And Deborah at that at the time was, was an attorney at a at a large law firm. And, you know, for us, we had busy jobs, we had jobs where the pressure was immense. And you know, just in life, you know, things gotta give sometimes. And I think both of us felt like we were having immense pressure trying to work on the marriage, preserve the marriage, build a family and keep our jobs live, keep it let it let you know, let alone, you know, succeed in it. And, you know, I just think there are periods where people realize something’s gonna give here. And I think that’s a period a lot of people encounter as they build their family. It’s excruciating.

Kara Goldin 9:15
Yeah, no, absolutely. And especially if you’re dealing with something as stressful as trying to figure out, you know, how do we do this? Right, something that’s so important is building a family I can totally imagine so, you hadn’t started a company. Neither of you, obviously, very smart, very capable people, but hadn’t started a company hadn’t started a company together, either. Were you nervous? Like, what if I fail? I mean, what if this thing doesn’t work? Is it just, I mean, this is gonna be awful. I mean, how did you think about this?

Jake Anderson 9:48
I would love to hear your thoughts on this subject, too. So our therapist had pointed out that Deborah and I were sometimes at our best when we’re working together when there’s a Taman thing and we both care. And we’re on the same page. And she had sort of suggested, you know, this is this is a subject you both care about. And it would be interesting to see what you can do about it. And so sort of at her suggestion, and we began to get to work on it, you know, it’s interesting. I think a lot of people think when couples try to build a business, it won’t succeed at Sequoia, we actually had a lot of success investing in founders that had a relationship. I believe that was the case. Cisco, I believe that was the case. With hoes I believe there’s I mean, there’s a lot of examples where it really, it works. And, and so I sort of been positively predisposed, and ever, you know, listen to me, there’s a lot to navigate in terms of making sure you know, one thing doesn’t bleed into the other. But I think people forget about all the benefits, you don’t really care who gets credit, you don’t care about who gets what level of equity, you know, that partner or spouse of yours, they understand, if you need to do something for work, you understand if they need to do something for work, and you’re they’re not just being selfish with their career. And so you just, I think it hangs together rather nicely. And I think from a personal perspective, you learn to have a newfound appreciation for your what your partner’s talents are. It used to be with Deborah and the debris talents, were always on display in a zero sum way, like she won the political argument, she figured out the quicker route home and I always sometimes felt a little diminished when she was right. When our backs are against the wall, and it’s us against the world. I’m like, you know, thank God, she has these talents, because I don’t and we so need them. Yeah. And I think in many ways, you know, the business is benefited, I think the relationships benefited from it. You know, nothing’s perfect in life. But I think it’s been, I think it’s actually been a net positive. And I just be curious about your own reflections on that concept. Because obviously, you and Theo, what you’ve done is Herculean, it’s a hard business to be in. Yeah. And you’re, you’re also raising kids and have a lot of demands.

Kara Goldin 12:01
Well, it’s funny, because I never thought about working with him, I think he always kind of had this idea that I did something that he didn’t really know how to do in terms of marketing, and building a brand and storytelling and doing a lot of those things that he thought were hard. And so when I had this idea, he was really excited to be helpful with it. But it’s, it’s interesting, because I think as time has gone on, and your kids are younger than ours, I think that the other thing that has sort of come out is that our family actually recognizes that we have each other’s back. Right? And so and we divide and conquer, and you know, there are times when the kids have needed him more than me, and vice versa. And, and, you know, there’s no discussion about it. Well, you did that last week, and now I need to do this or whatever, or one of us has to travel. And then the other one stays home, whatever. So it actually has really worked. And we still have to this day, different skill sets. But I would say that we’re able to jump in, on, you know, I can actually run a product at our plants. And and, you know, he’s, I think better at it, you know, and he’s more curious about it and, and enjoys it more. But it’s not to say that I can’t do it. And I think that the same is is probably true for you guys. It’s like you know all aspects of the business. And you just sort of divide and conquer on it. But it’s something that a lot of people actually say we heard it early on. We didn’t hear it from Sequoia when we were pitching Sequoia. But it was something that a few different investment firms said to us and today I would say that many people invest or don’t invest based on sort of their own opinions. Right? So maybe they are imagining I could never work with my spouse. They’re like, there’s no way that this is gonna work. But I think it does work for some people. And I can totally imagine you and Deborah it working for you guys.

Jake Anderson 14:13
Yeah, it’s work. I do think it is work and there’s just certain things we’re just very clear one of us has just better instincts than the other person. And at some point, it just becomes obvious you know, that’s a Deborah thing or that’s a Jake thing and we probably won’t lose too much time debating who’s going to be get the final say, if there’s disagreement on it. And you know, it’s a long time, hopefully, we’ll still be in business and hopefully, you know, still be married but you know, eight to 10 years into both. I feel pretty good about the decision.

Kara Goldin 14:43
I love it. So when people go to the fertility IQ site, what is the key thing that I guess people can learn but also people come there first four. Yeah,

Jake Anderson 14:54
that’s interesting. What people find are two things if they come to the site, they will be able to find courses. on specific subjects PCOS, endometriosis, IVF, using donor egg, really taught by the foremost expert in the field, these are really the division chiefs at Harvard, Stanford, Hopkins, Columbia, Yale, Northwestern NYU, so you’re getting expert opinion from people that are otherwise difficult to access. And so you and your partner can watch the thing, have the same information, make a more harmonized decision, or at least have a more articulate discussion with whoever your provider may be the next day. So we have courses, and we’ve got about, you know, 40 to 60 of them. And then we have these courses in about 40 languages and in for 40 different countries. The second thing that we’ve got is reviews of doctors and clinics. So these are assessments penned by verified patients provide us a document proves they were treated there, and where they really reflect upon who they are, how they were treated, the drugs, they were given the costs, they incurred, the strengths of the place the weaknesses of the place. And that’s really down to the doctor, the clinic, the billing department, the nursing team. And the value here is you can come to the site and filter and say, Hey, I am an African American woman, I have uterine fibroids, I’m going to use donor sperm and I live in Chicago, I really want to hear from people like me, because hearing from people like us important in this process, and then you’re able to hear from people like you their views on all the doctors and clinics. And then it’s hopefully going to help you understand the strengths and the weaknesses of those places. So you can make a decision on where to go, when to stay, when to move on. And in our field. There’s a real offline failure. People don’t talk about this stuff, like they talk about a cardiologist or a dentist. Because there’s so much shame, sometimes in stigma. And so this is hopefully this really helps address an offline failure of where you’re, you’re not able to get that level of detail and help from you know, your community, like you otherwise wouldn’t a different disease state.

Kara Goldin 16:53
And how do doctors feel about this? You know, that’s really interesting.

Jake Anderson 16:58
Nobody likes to be reviewed, I would hate to have somebody looking over my shoulder and provide a public assessment how I did every day. I think, for many clinicians, at first, it was unsettling, you know, even if they thought, nine out of 10 patients really admire my work and think that I’m helpful. They’re all very sensitive to the fact that our field has a lot of failure attached to it. IVF doesn’t work. A lot of times, people feel demoralized. And it’s easy to point fingers. And I think a lot of clinicians were fearful that it would really be the people that have a grievance or an axe grind, that would write an assessment. And I think, you know, we have now 50,000 assessments, there’s only 1000 fertility doctors, I think we got a big enough sample size now where people realize this is pretty representative of the sentiment on me. And but you know, that took us a long time. And so you know, for I think the first few years, people were nervous and weary. But I think these days, I think clinicians are on the reviews, I think they’re, you know, neutral, they’re relatively positive like this is discipline, this is rigorous. This is representative in on the courses, I think they’re universally abusive, I think many of them think if I had all day to spend with this patient, this is the type of education I’d want to give them. But I have a waiting room full of patients, I don’t have time to explain cellular biology. And so having them have access to this course. So that when they come back, we can have a relevant discussion on the on the really the the important things, I think many of them see that is really emancipating themselves and giving themselves more time to devote to patients on the things that they’re they’re really expert on. And so I think overall, it’s pretty positive now.

Kara Goldin 18:35
So when did you know this was going to be a business that was going to stick? You know that you were also you’ve talked about being bootstrapped and that you’ve made the decision not to go out and raise what what was the point where you said, Okay, we’re going to Deborah, we’re not going to have to go back to being in our old jobs. And this is this is working. Yeah,

Jake Anderson 19:01
I mean, for me, the day that I celebrate, and I think this is true for Deborah is not the day we started. It’s the day that we knew we were gonna make it. It’s the day that we knew that our baby was going to leave the NICU and was going to live. And I’m talking about the business. And for us, it’s when we became cashflow positive, where it went from this is a thing. And it may be on life support. And we may have to beg people to subsidize it. We may have to beg customers to show up we’ll have to contort to whatever whim they have of what they think this should be to being cashflow positive, and to being financially sturdy and adapt point. You know, we knew that we were going to be in control of our own destiny, and we could do the things that we felt like we’re right for the business. And in my mind, that’s the seminal date. That’s the seminal moment and in life’s very scary I think up until that moment And one of the things that we’ve chosen to do is allow employers to pay us so their employees can access the offering. And that stabilize the business, we, you know, we have a lot of fortune 50 clients, they signed three to five year contracts, they’re happy, they pay their bills on time, it allows us to build more products, it allows us to think about what we need to add in when. And I think that level of stability is just the difference between making it or, or not. And, you know, we’re a little delusional in the first five years, I think we just sort of assumed we build something great, we throw a party, people are going to show up, and they’re going to take out their credit card. This is expensive stuff, what we have is unique, and they’ll want to pay. And I’m relieved that we found a business model where we weren’t subject to the vicissitudes of whether an end user just felt like paying that day. And so in my mind, that’s the seminal moment when we became cashflow positive, and sturdy and healthy, is the day I knew that this would endure. And until then, I think we were delusional and thinking it would just happen.

Kara Goldin 21:11
So that’s your main business model? Is that through employers and, and get it? And is that how they you get the word out primarily to I mean, I would guess there’s a word of mouth as well.

Jake Anderson 21:23
Yeah, that’s, uh, you know, the people come to the site, either because their employer covers all the cost, or because their doctors told them or they found it on on Google, so are tributaries of who comes to the site, it’s about 50% employees of clients, and 50% kind of people off the street, who have just heard from their doctor or their clinic or on on Google, in our minds, you know, we really have two masters to serve here, the we really the end user is our, our, the primary person we’re looking out for if we don’t do a good job serving them, kind of doesn’t matter what or who else. But at the same time, you know, we have employers that care deeply about the subject, if we also need to serve those employers, they’ll have ideas about courses that should be built, they’ll have ideas about regions that are going to be really relevant. You know, as an example, we have a client that had a presence in Russia, they’re shutting down their Russian offices, their employees, were going to be in Armenia, and what did we have for employees in Yerevan in Armenia, and and so, you know, reacting to what our clients he is being pertinent, is also immensely important to us. And, you know, often there’s no, there’s no separation between what the end user needs and what the employer needs. But sometimes there is, and having to think through sequencing is really important for us.

Kara Goldin 22:48
Interesting. So you are available outside of the US as well. It’s a

Jake Anderson 22:52
major focus of ours. You know, I think one of the things it’s astonishing in our field is how different these processes look, state to state in the US, but certainly country to country. So as an example of your a woman who wants to freeze her eggs in the US, you can do whatever you want, if you’re gonna do it in the UK, you got 10 years to use the eggs, otherwise, you can’t you do it in Hong Kong, you can freeze your eggs, but you’ve got to come back with a quote unquote, husband’s sperm. And if you do in China, you go to jail. So like, it’s totally different, what you can do in which country? And then of course, you know, the religious, the financial considerations, the legal considerations, they’re really different. It’s you’ve got to rebuild the offering for different regions and countries. It’s been intellectually fascinating, but it’s also immensely demanding. And it’s in it’s something that, you know, it’s been a focus of ours for the last three to five years. And these days, we serve as many people not in the US as it is in the US.

Kara Goldin 23:48
So as an entrepreneur, knowing what you know, today, is there something you do over when you first started,

Jake Anderson 23:55
I think, the major thing where we didn’t step in it, but we almost did, was not figuring out monetization earlier. I think, you know, online businesses, community based businesses, California, there’s this ethos of we’d rather have you stayed and pay, we’re going to build a community. And at some point, somebody is going to ascribe a lot of value to it. And, and I think we were victims of some of that, that thinking, and we just sort of assumed if we have a great product and people show up, like, you know, eventually we’ll have a sturdy business. And I think we waited too long to really be sure around that now. Ultimately, it ended up being okay, but for when I look back in hindsight, what could have really screwed things up is I think if we had let that thinking prevail and go on for too long, we would have been surprised. I think the thing we did right though, is realize we’re not in a big market. This is it happens to a lot of people but with our business model, the business can only be so big, we knew the business could only be so big, we were reluctant and decided not to take money because we knew we couldn’t give people a big return. And we didn’t want to mislead them and think that this was going to be bigger than it was. And as a result, we are very slow to spend money, we didn’t take a salary for seven years. I mean, that’s two people in a family not taking a salary, it was really painful. And we hired very parsimoniously, and only when it was clear that that role was needed. And so the thing that we did, right around this was being very, very smart, I think, and reluctant to add expense. And that’s the flip side of having been too timid to try and push monetization is we also I think, in the back of our minds knew we gotta be really careful with money here, because we’re not going to get it from elsewhere.

Kara Goldin 25:46
Definitely. has it taken longer than you thought.

Jake Anderson 25:50
You know, I think I mean, it’s been an odyssey. Yeah. You know, that’s, that’s my, my view. But my horizon is different. You know, this is, even though we’re based in SF, and this is an online business, it’s still a family business, like a tire shop, or a dental office like this is something we want to build and run for, for the rest of our lives. And so even though it’s taken a long time to get to this period, in my mind, it’s still the, the end of the beginning. And so I’m not frustrated by the amount of time because I think we’re really, you know, this is a house of brick and one we that one we want to build for, for a long time. But I do think the adage of it’s, it’s going to be two to three times longer two to three times more expensive to get most stuff done. I think a lot of that that would apply here. But I will say that once the business has become profitable, things happen faster, we’re able to step on the gas and be decisive, because we know we have the resources. And we know that people around us are committed to doing it. So we can be a bit more decisive versus the early years where we had to agonize over every decision, even if it was apparent it was necessary.

Kara Goldin 27:03
How do you feel when consumers are writing to you and telling you that I would imagine you get these emails, like thank you so much, you helped me figure out the black box. And and you know, you don’t even know these people right there in Indiana,

Jake Anderson 27:20
or I remember when Theo is telling me what it was like to get an email from, I think a kid in Alabama who was suffering with a high BMI, getting access to healthy food, and drink was hard, and how that person felt like, hit a transform what their life could be. And I remember how that affected Theo. And I think it affects us the same way, you know, it’s the scar tissue we have around our own experiences visceral, we still feel the pain of when you feel like your relationships, not going to make it the thing you’re hoping for in life is not going to happen. And the immense relief when you feel like there’s a glimmer of hope. And so I think when people give us a signal that that’s happening for them, you know, we’re overjoyed. And if they attribute to any of it, or part of it to us, you know, we’re we’re ecstatic about it. I’m the type of person that thrives on what people say about me, which cuts both ways. I mean, it’s devastating when people when people tell you didn’t do your job, and it affects me deeply. And so I’m ecstatic when we get that feedback. I to be honest, I tried to attenuate my own emotions or around it, because, you know, when the feedback comes back differently sometimes, you know, there’s a, there’s rightfully a lot of soul searching. But but we take the feedback to heart no matter what. And so I think we’re better for it. And in some days, you know, we feel like we’ve we’ve done are a job. And this will be our legacy. And there are other days where, you know, we feel like we’ve got more to do. And thank God the clock keeps going so we can we can keep improving things.

Kara Goldin 29:04
Yeah, well, I love what you’re doing. And I think the fact that you’re making things possible for many, many people, you can’t solve all the problems for people, unfortunately, but you’re definitely solving it for many and when you’re trying to really help people with a health issue. As I always say that if you don’t have your health, you have nothing doesn’t matter how much money you have, or any of those things, it’s what your titles or any of those things. It’s like, you know, there are things that are really hard for people and if you can just give a few of those people a glimmer of hope. I think that’s a really powerful thing and a great legacy to have and I should mention you have two kids now and we’re just so so great. So I love it.

Jake Anderson 29:52
Thank you. I you know, I mean having kids, you know, there were people that said once you get your kids, you’re gonna stop caring about this. You’re gonna start focusing on pre K and And for us, you know, I mean, I, my kids most important thing in my life by far all run through walls to make sure everybody who wants to get a kid gets one adopt foster fertility unaided conception. In my mind, love is love. And so I think if anything, it’s having our kids strengthen our resolve to keep going rather than sapped us of it.

Kara Goldin 30:19
Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you again, and thanks for sharing all of you know, the lessons of the build the company everything and please say hello to Deborah as well. We’re really, really excited about everything you’re doing. And we’ll put everything in the show notes for all the information on both of you and then also fertility IQ as well. So thanks again. Thanks all for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. And I want to thank all of our guests and our sponsors. And finally, our listeners. Keep the great comments coming in. And one final plug. If you have not read or listen to my book undaunted, please do so you will hear all about my journey, including founding, scaling and building the company that I founded. Hint we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks everyone for listening, and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening