Kendra Kolb Butler – Founder of Alpyn Beauty

Episode 248

Ever wonder what inspires people to create? Meet Kendra Kolb Butler, Founder of Alpyn Beauty. Hear how she created her dreamy products by infusing hand-harvested wild plants right from her own backyard in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And turned them into wonderful all-natural beauty products! On this episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down but just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everybody, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I am so thrilled to have my next guest. Here we have Kendra Kolb Butler, who is the founder of Alpin beauty. And these are amazing, amazing products. She is actually out of one of my favorite places, Jackson Hole Wyoming. And I mean, if you have not tried health and beauty products, then you’re missing something. There’s a huge cult following. They’re just beautiful products, so pure and so wonderful. And she’s not paying me to say this. By the way, I’m just telling the truth about some incredible products that she has created. I’m really excited to share more about Kendra’s company, and how she traded New York City for Jackson Hole a few years ago and never looked back. And today she’s sharing what she learned about skincare, the potency of plants starting a beauty brand in Wyoming and making dreams a reality. And her 20 years in the beauty industry working for some incredible luxury beauty companies led her to ultimately found Alpin beauty and 2018. And the first line of beauty products a to contain freshly picked plant straight from the mountains of Jackson Hole Wyoming. So I also love how she’s integrating so many lessons and so much information that she’s learned from the environmental standpoint that she’s going to share with us here today too. And thank you so much, Kendra, for coming on with us today.

Kendra Kolb Butler 2:20
Thank you so much for having me. I could not be more thrilled to be here.

Kara Goldin 2:24
So tell me a little bit about your background. So starting when you were really really young, so So Did you always know that you were going to be an entrepreneur and start a beauty business?

Kendra Kolb Butler 2:37
No, no, no, I did not know that at all. It just really happened. I will say from a very young age, I did love to play store and shop. You know with my girlfriends were playing with dolls. I had a store where I was making my friends and family ring up fake money into a cash register. So I always kind of liked that idea of owning something and doing something but did not dream in a million years that I would be a beauty entrepreneur. No.

Kara Goldin 3:10
Where did you grow up? By the way? Not Jackson Hole, right?

Kendra Kolb Butler 3:13
No, not Jackson Hole. I grew up in a small town called Wilmington, Delaware, which is a suburb about 20 minutes outside of Philadelphia.

Kara Goldin 3:23
Amazing, really fun. So did you always have a passion for beauty products

Kendra Kolb Butler 3:27
love beauty from a very young age whenever I got a weekly allowance, and I would take my $2 and I would go to the local drugstore, the Rite Aid and I would buy like five lipsticks and nail polishes and I always spent my childhood money on beauty products. It was just it was it was definitely an obsession from very early age.

Kara Goldin 3:54
So your first job out of school, share a little bit about that

Kendra Kolb Butler 4:00
Chinese fast food restaurant in the mall was my first job directly out of school just to kind of make, you know, make it work. But I quickly my first career move was an internship, actually at a company called see bonci in London. And I applied for this internship and it was fantastic. I don’t know how I got the job, but I did. And it was in the beauty office at Parsons Jeevan. She in London. And that just ignited my passion for this beauty career. And I’ve been in beauty ever since.

Kara Goldin 4:41
That’s amazing. So you left you came back to the States after London and how did you transfer into? So you were at clarens and Cody, can you share a little bit more about those?

Kendra Kolb Butler 4:56
I was income Yeah. So I started to get jobs at the big corporate Asians have the big beauty conglomerates, you know, coming from Jeevan shi clarens. And Cody was a national, a natural transition. But I really found my passion when I got a job with a dermatologist who had his own skincare. And I really loved that the business was in kind of its startup mode. It was a small team, led by two really, really smart people, this dermatologist and his wife, who ran the company. But my favorite thing about that job was I really learned the science behind skincare, and how beauty had this scientific angle to it. And that just kind of set me down this path of skincare. And then I turned transitioned kind of from the beauty junkie like lover of all things make up into skincare ingredients. And I could not believe the difference that I started to see in my skin when I was using actives applied topically.

Kara Goldin 6:05
Wow, what were what were some of the ingredients that you found like you just didn’t even know that they were just game changing for your skin.

Kendra Kolb Butler 6:14
I mean, I would say vitamin C, second to none. When it comes to antioxidants. You have the acid family alpha beta hydroxy acids, you have the hydrators and Sarah mites and hyaluronic acid. But you know, I spend all this money on beauty products and makeup, but I was washing my face with like, Dove soap. And I didn’t understand the importance of a really good skincare regimen and how it can enhance the performance of everything else that you’re using. So working for this dermatologist kind of taught me a lot about skincare. And yeah, I’ve been really into it ever since

Kara Goldin 6:56
that’s amazing. Now was this after clarens? And Cody?

Kendra Kolb Butler 7:00
Yes. So I was with this dermatologist for about 10 years in Manhattan, probably 2003 to 2015. And then in 2015, I kind of had this life changing. Aha moment that led me to where I am today.

Kara Goldin 7:19
So you’re in the pastures of Wyoming. And so how did what was the decision to actually go to Wyoming? I don’t know. I guess there’s pastures but I it’s more mountains than than anything else.

Kendra Kolb Butler 7:36
Forests, valleys meadows, you name it. We haven’t here. But I can tell you, you know, after living in Manhattan for 20 years, I had a pretty severe case of burnout. It had one of those life changing awakening moments where I was just thinking, you know, what am I doing with myself? I am, I’m working so hard. And living in this city. I’m surrounded by amazing, influential and inspiring people. But it’s also feeling cluttered. And I was feeling lots of anxiety. And I just decided that I needed to take a timeout in life. And the moment was I was driving in a car. And I was listening to NPR on the radio and somebody said, sometimes you have to jump off a cliff and build your wings on the way down. And that was extremely, that was a moment for me because I thought you know, if I don’t make a life change, I’m gonna continue to be unhappy for the rest of my life. So it was pretty drastic, but it was also pretty fast.

Kara Goldin 8:47
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s so true. And you were a new parent at that point, as well.

Kendra Kolb Butler 8:53
Yeah, we had our first our first baby four months old. And, you know, I was just kind of looking at my life and how I was going to be raising him. You know, I was working in a corporate office from eight in the morning till eight at night, I went to work when it was dark. I came home when it was dark. And I just started to think is this really the life that I want for myself? Like, is this how I want to live out? Life is not a dress rehearsal. You know, we all get to do that one time and you know, I think that factored into the decision was becoming a mom for the first time it was that

Kara Goldin 9:26
that’s incredible. I love your experience and working for brands, but then also you got you know, the the startup you know, from the dermatology office, that the feeling of what it’s like to actually start a business inside of the dermatology office and you were able to kind of see entrepreneurs in in process. I’m so curious, did they call themselves entrepreneurs or was this sort of an extension of the dermatology business?

Kendra Kolb Butler 10:00
I think so yeah, it was a it was a CPG brand. You know, I mean, they, he was a dermatologist, but they had skincare products that were sold in retailers like Nordstrom and Sephora. And, you know, really gave me it’s where I really cut my teeth because I saw what can happen to a company that has, you know, good brand good formulas. And when I started there, we were, you know, five people and but by the time I left, I mean, I don’t know, there was hundreds at that point. So, you know, those crucial moments of any brand from day one to day tat, like your time, a lot happens in between that timeframe. So I was really fortunate that I got to see that firsthand. And it’s helped me tremendously get to where I am today, for sure.

Kara Goldin 10:46
I think it’s amazing. supporting entrepreneurs, I think cannot be a better bootcamp in many ways than to going and starting your own. So you moved to Wyoming. And what was the moment that you just decided, maybe I go do this and actually start my own company,

Kendra Kolb Butler 11:05
it was the last thing in my mind, to be quite honest. So I left Manhattan because they wanted a change of pace. I thought, I’m gonna go to the mountains, I’m going to do some yoga, I’m going to make babies, and I’m going to just like, chill out in life. And I did that for about one week. And then I was just, I got that feeling like, I need a job. I gotta find a gym. Like I always I love to work, and I love to raise my family, I love to be a wife, I love to be a mother. But I also really like to pursue my own passions, and continue to learn and explore. So what I decided to do was open some local beauty apothecaries, because I thought, this is a great passion project of mine. I know skincare. I know, mate guy, I have connections in the beauty industry. So I can make a few phone calls, I can start this beauty store with the best in the best products. And that’s what I want to do. I want to be a shrunk bone. So I opened the two stores. They were very popular in the local community, I was having a hard time finding people to work. So I was working in the stores all the time. And I started to notice a trend that women who were coming into these stores, were looking for skincare, because living in the mountains, the climate is very extreme. You know, you have big temperature changes, low humidity, we’re at 6200 feet above sea level. So there’s lots of hyperpigmentation and sun damage. And I was selling a lot of skincare a lot. But it wasn’t working. So that was my first kind of like, what do I do now? kind of moment

Kara Goldin 12:53
where they’re products that you felt like you were trying to find that you felt that there was a hole in the market that you could develop this need? Or how did this how did the idea for Alpin beauty actually start then

Kendra Kolb Butler 13:05
it’s so funny, because I still didn’t quite get there. Because having worked at a startup company, it was the last thing I wanted to do was start my own brand. But the first thing that happened is I was getting so many returns in skincare in particular. And I was selling the best creams and the best cleansers and the best serums in the market. And every time I sold something, you know, I’m selling things from the top lines. And every time I sold something, the client would walk back in two days later and say this didn’t work, do you have anything else. And at the same time, I noticed that my own skin was starting to fall apart. You know, everything that I had been using for skincare in Manhattan wasn’t performing the same way in the mountains. And I was sitting in my backyard. One night, I remember the exact night what I was wearing the chair that I was sitting in, and I was looking at the forest behind my house. And I was thinking the stores are going to go out of business because my return rate and skincare is over 30% What am I going to do? And I just became laser focused on the wild plants that I was looking at. And I thought well this is interesting. These plants are exposed to the same extreme climate and conditions yet they are hydrated, they are juicy, they are plump, they are youthful. What is growing here, like what is indigenous to the to the land? And how has nature found a way to adapt to this climate? And what can we learn from so that was the first like aha moment I think was just really focusing on these wild plants and trying to figure out how they were doing so well in a place that was wreaking havoc on our skin.

Kara Goldin 15:01
Hey Kara, here, we are thrilled you’re listening with us. And I hope you’re enjoying this episode. I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing so many amazing guests over the past few years, and there are so many more to come, I cannot wait. And my focus is on entrepreneurs and CEOs, real innovators and leaders who are making a difference. That’s what I’m looking forward to bringing you. One of the reasons I enjoy interviewing many of my guests is that I get to learn, we all need to hear stories that teach us to be better inspire us and help us get through those challenging moments. I can’t remember the last time I had a guess that didn’t leave me feeling like a major hurdle had been overcome. We just don’t hear the stories enough. And when we do, we learn to be smarter and stronger. Don’t you agree? Episodes are concise, but packed with amazing info that you will surely be inspired by, do me a favor and send me a DM and tell me what you think about each interviewer that you get a chance to be inspired by. And if you are so inclined, please leave one of those five star reviews for the Kara Goldin show on one of your favorite podcast platforms as well. Reviews really, really help. Now let’s get back to this episode. What was it about the plants then? So what did you do at this point? Did you go outside and start looking and start researching a little bit more about these plants?

Kendra Kolb Butler 16:34
That’s exactly what I did. I hired a local farmer and a botanist and I said, Can you can you just hike with me? Can we go deep into these forests into these ravines? Can we go out into nature? And can you tell me what is growing here? I have to know what plants are indigenous to this land. So we started to take walks. And as as we’re walking, you know, this expert was like, Oh, that is wild camera meal. That’s calendula, that’s borage. There’s a patch of sage. And these were all ingredients that I had recognized as skincare ingredients from my prior life, working for a dermatologist and I thought, wow, like this is interesting. So in a town where women are suffering from this dry, dehydrated skin, there are wild skincare ingredients growing out of every nook and cranny of the environment. Like if this isn’t like how could I bridge the gap on these two things. And that’s when I learned about wildcrafting aka for a gene.

Kara Goldin 17:46
That’s incredible. So talk to us about foraging a little bit. So for gene

Kendra Kolb Butler 17:51
has been done for centuries, I’m not the first person to invent it. It’s been used by Native Americans for medicinal food. We, I mean, it’s been around for a very, very long time. But what it is, is, it’s the process of sustainably harvesting a plant from its natural growth environment. And what that really means is that it’s uninterrupted by man. So until you harvest debt, you don’t feed the plant, you don’t protect it from the sound, you know, when when something is farmed or cultivated, we we go out of our way to make sure that the plant is protected. So it it appropriates in abundance and it just continues to reproduce. And like in nature, those plants have to do it all on their own. And they have this extra gear or this fight like we call it Darwinism of plants to try to stay alive through these extreme conditions. And my thought was if we can put these plants with this fight into skincare are going to are they going to bring that extra gear to skin? And are we going to see a different kinds of performance versus plants that are made mass produced in powder form. And I became kind of evacuated with this idea of folding wild plants into skincare formulas because I didn’t know anybody else that was doing it.

Kara Goldin 19:29
I always talk about entrepreneurship as you have to like doing puzzles where people don’t give you you know, the picture on the top of the box, but they just say here’s a bunch of pieces go for it. And I think like that is such a great example where you were just curious and you kept you know, you were excited to get up the next morning. I bet trying to figure out this next piece right and and I mean it’s such a great I just have this incredible image Have Kendra foraging and trying to figure this stuff out and, and stumbling upon things, but actually making progress along the way. So from the time you first started doing this to the time that you actually had your first product, what how long did that take?

Kendra Kolb Butler 20:16
It was probably about one to two years, I would say, yeah, it was, the first thing I had to do was understand how to harvest the plants. And that was almost kind of the easy part. Even though there is a barrier to entry, because you have to have the property, you know, it has to be done on private land, you have to do it sustainably where you’re not harming the plant and the process. So when you wild craft, it’s as if I were to take some scissors and like cut your split ends, like I wouldn’t, if I wanted to give you a haircut I was I wouldn’t rip the hair out of your head. So same thing with the plants, it’s, it’s the same way that the animals nibble on them, you just take little tiny pieces over a patch, that’s like 10 acres deep, you don’t like pull the plants out. So learning about that was probably the easy part. The harder part was finding a contract manufacturer who would take these plants, because I knew I wasn’t going to be making this on my stove. You know, like where I made my kids mac and cheese. Like, I’m not a chemist. You know, I didn’t know how to put ingredients. I knew what I wanted in the skincare formula. But I needed a manufacturer who could do it in a clinical environment. Make sure that was safe for skin tested, you know, to go through all those checks and balances and finding the contract manufacturer was the harder part of this project. Because it’s not really the way that the industry operates. Most skincare entrepreneurs will source ingredients from suppliers. They don’t they don’t manufacture their own. So that was probably one of the hardest parts is just finding someone accredited to work with me. And who would take these wild plants that I wanted to deliver, you know, by the truckload?

Kara Goldin 22:14
No, that’s incredible. And so, as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, so you’re the first to use wild plants from Jackson Hole. And you talk to us a little bit about the foraging and actually creating the product. So you’ve got this product. Now what was the first product that you developed

Kendra Kolb Butler 22:33
a moisturizer, of course, everybody was so dry here. I mean, it was they say necessity is the mother of invention. I told you my own skin. When I moved from Manhattan to Jackson Hole, it was just peeling off of my face. It was I was so uncomfortable. And I knew a moisturizer was gonna have to be the first first. So I wrote the formula for moisturizer. I harvested the wild plants that I wanted to put in it, which were things like calendula and chamomile, and sage and borad drove the plants to a contract manufacturer. And they gave me some little lab samples, some tiny little pots of this moisturizer, we call it melt. Its name is stone melt mountain moisturizer. And I took these samples back to the beauty stores. And I started the test and I just started to drop it into every shopping bag from women that were coming into my stores just to see what they thought I didn’t sell it. I didn’t like ask them to i All I asked was please just report back and tell me what you think.

Kara Goldin 23:40
And what was the response back.

Kendra Kolb Butler 23:43
It was pretty big. So that is that was when I knew I had proof of concept. To be honest. Like I could not walk to the grocery store. I could not take my child to the playground. I couldn’t get on my yoga mat without a woman grabbing me by my shoulders and saying Kendra, what did you give me in that little pot for the first time my skin feels soft, I look younger, my lines are reduced like everything looks and feels so much better. What magical elixir was in there. And really it was just the wild plants that everybody is like stepping over every day when they’re hiking and watching. You know sometimes if you have to look at the things that nobody else is looking at, yeah. And then then it became obsessed. Then I was like okay, I am all in because now I know for a fact that this actually works. I

Kara Goldin 24:41
love it. And where was the first place that you had it for sale.

Kendra Kolb Butler 24:44
Credo beauty, wrote my first Pio. So I knew it was working in the stores. I started to send it to friends in Manhattan, Miami, Los Angeles and wanted to see how it worked at sea level. because my thought was if this works in the mountains, where we have really horrible skin, and we’re exposed to these bad conditions, once I get into a more forgiving environment, it’s going to be like off the charts. And that was actually what happened. So I requested a meeting with Credo beauty. And I flew to San Francisco to meet with them in 2018, at the end of 2018. And they they took the product line on the spot. So that was my first national retailer. And then goop goop was very supportive to in the beginning. That’s

Kara Goldin 25:38
incredible. I think that’s where I saw it for the first time. So that’s absolutely incredible. So what do you think has been the biggest challenge to date and creating Alpen? Maybe something you’ve been pretty surprised about? I mean, you’re you were supporting entrepreneurs, you were working for incredible big brands, you had all the right experience, but what was it that just sort of surprised you,

Kendra Kolb Butler 26:02
I have to say, I knew I kind of came into this eyes wide open to your point, because I had worked at a startup before. But doing it yourself, is completely different. Because there’s so much more on the line. You know, like as the brand grows, you have your own money, you have your own time, you’re now bring on team members, and you’re responsible for them as well. You want to take care of your team, you want to make sure that everybody is happy around you and that they’re getting what they need to get out of the environment. So I have to say everything has surprised me, I knew it was going to be hard. But this was just like a whole new level of, of champions. In a good way, because, you know, I was I wanted that in my life. But I just I can’t pinpoint one thing, it’s just every day, there’s just a different issue to tackle. It’s definitely an adventure,

Kara Goldin 27:05
I’m sure. I think for me, I had worked not in, in the beverage industry, but in tech for incredible entrepreneurs, either directly or indirectly, including, actually before tech and media, for Ted Turner Steve Case, not directly for Steve Jobs, but indirectly for him. And what I found is that when I started my own company, I had no idea that, you know, their responsibility for raising capital or building a team or any of the things that you were describing. I mean, I just wanted to create a product. That was awesome, right. But there’s so many other elements that go on dealing with distribution not being able to deal with, you know, the shippers or, you know, basically anything that might happen when it’s in the hands of FedEx or USPS or UPS, right. I mean, I’m sure you had plenty of those types of issues along the way that unbelievable. Yeah, that, that delay or screw up what you’re trying to do, and in some way, so I’d love to hear a story about, you know, a challenge along the way that you’ve had. You know, one of the things that I always share with people, especially when I’m speaking on college campuses, is that I feel like entrepreneurism has been glamorized, maybe over glamorized to some extent that it’s really hard. I’m not gonna say it is a rewarding and you don’t learn lots of lessons. But I think that there’s many stories along the way that don’t ever get told where you feel like, you know, you’re running really fast. And then all of a sudden, you hit a brick wall and add, you know, all the things that go along with it. So I’d love to hear yours for sure.

Kendra Kolb Butler 28:58
I think, I don’t think I was prepared for how thick your skin has to be when you hear no, over and over and over again. I think that you know, I always had been a person who could wiggle I guess, somebody in some way, shape or form. And when I started this business, and I approached retailers and distributors and you’re talking about capital raise, like we were looking for investors in the early stages, and I just occurred know so many times that it created this like Cloud or bubble of self doubt. And I started to say to myself, can I do this? Like, maybe this isn’t a good idea. Maybe this product isn’t good enough? Maybe I’m not good enough. Maybe I can’t lead this. And I think having that persistence, fortitude. Adaptability was something that I really had to learn And it took getting knocked down to make me stronger. Because every time I got back up, I was prepared for the next hit. And it really kind of trained me up in terms of like, rising from the ashes and believing in myself. And if one person says no, find a way around, and go find somebody else to ask. And that was a really big challenge for me in the early days. And, you know, five years into this business, if you talk about, you know, working on it for two years before we launched, it still checked. I still hear no every day, but it’s the way that I interpret that No, it’s the way that I internalize it. You know, that has been my biggest learning throughout this whole thing. For sure.

Kara Goldin 30:51
Incredible, incredible story of building a great product if you guys have not tried. Alvin beauty definitely order where’s the best place for people to order Kendra? Alcon

Kendra Kolb Butler 31:03
And it’s spelled alp You can also find this nationwide and Sephora detects market credo beauty goop. We have a really great, great network of supportive partners and distributors.

Kara Goldin 31:22
That’s incredible. Oh, I almost forgot. But this is so so interesting. I was reading all about the changing ecosystem. And Wyoming. Can you share a little bit more about what you’ve discovered? What obstacles does you know, the changing environment create in Wyoming,

Kendra Kolb Butler 31:40
this has been a really funny season, I think we’re over 100 inches below or average snowfall for normal winters. So it’s kind of it only been living here for six years, but I’ve seen a lot of changes myself. So two things to mention, we’re actually part of 1% of the planet. So 1% of every purchase goes to restoring our local Grand Teton National playbook. And to date, we’ve helped them restore over 900 acres. So hopefully, we’re making small changes to to help the ecosystem and help balance it. But the good thing about the plants is that they are the first to adapt to climate changes. So you know, we as humans, we’re always a little bit behind the plants, I think so we are just starting to watch growth patterns and, and monitor rainfall, but the tougher it is and the plants, the better the benefits to your skin. So I found that really interesting. But I mean, who knows, I think everyone is noticed that changes are happening. And it’s not like a in 100 years, we’re going to see X it’s like, we’re seeing that now. So hopefully that is is going to help move people to start to make a change in the way that they live their life. But yeah, we’re seeing for sure.

Kara Goldin 33:06
I love it. And I always think about, there’s so many just in creating your product, all of the stuff that you’ve learned that you didn’t anticipate you ever would learn, right. And I think that that’s the great thing about being an entrepreneur to is in developing your own company is that you inevitably figure out things like that about your industry about your supply chain, all of these things. So I absolutely love that. Well thank you so much for sharing everything and all your lessons and like I said before Alpin beauty everybody needs to get some I need to get the melt for sure. That’s what it’s called right? The melt product. I have not tried that yet. No melt moisturizer. Definitely going to do that. We’re going to make you sell out pretty quickly. So definitely very excited to try it. And thanks everyone for listening. Don’t forget to subscribe to the Kara Goldin show. So you are sure not to miss stories like Kendra’s and Alpin beauty. And definitely be sure to send in those five star ratings. It really helps the algorithm and I can be found on all platforms that Kara Goldin and if you haven’t already, I hope you will pick up a copy of my book or download it on Audible. It’s called undaunted, where your film where you will hear more about my journey and my lessons in building a company along the way. We are here every Monday and Wednesday and soon adding another day. Very, very shortly. And thanks everyone for listening. Have a great week. And thanks again Kendra. Thanks, everybody for listening and good bye for now.

Kendra Kolb Butler 34:51
Thank you for having me. I love being here.

Kara Goldin 34:54
Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear people like to talk about fearlessly Leaders, but achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening