Jill Turnbull – Founder & CEO of Jill Turnbull Beauty

Episode 189

What does it mean to be an eco-conscious beauty company? Our guest today is Jill Turnbull, founder and CEO of Jill Turnbull Beauty, a line of beauty products leading the charge in sustainable beauty. After 45 years in the beauty industry, Jill saw a gap in the industry that she believes she can fill -- creating products, not just packaging, that are safe for our oceans. This episode is an inspiring story of someone doing a lot of good by creating good. Press play today on this great episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to just sort of make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara golden show. So join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go.

Hi, everyone, its Kara golden from the Kara golden show super excited to have my next guest here who has incredible products that I’ve known about for years in the beauty industry. But she is just another female, an entrepreneur and CEO, Jill Turnbull, who has an incredible brand that you hopefully are familiar with. If not, you need to become familiar with it. Jill timbral beauty products. And we’re going to talk a little bit about what makes them different and unique. But I’ll just hit it a little bit that they have minimal impact on the earth. And plus, they’re just great products. I mean, I always think about all of the, you know, the sustainability and everything around ingredients is great. But if they are great products to begin with, then I think, you know, it’s hard to stay with a lot of these products and her products are just absolutely terrific. She Jill has cultivated a 45 year career as a hairstylist and expert, hair colorist. But she wanted clean quality beauty products that would nourish people’s hair, and skin and beauty or body naturally. So she set out to work and create these incredible products that would do that. And she was kind enough to send me some of the products although I had tried her products before. And I was very, very excited to get to get them. So she’s on a mission to provide plant based alternatives to to these products. And the line, as I said is just better all the way around. I’m going to I won’t do it justice. I’m going to let Jael talk a little bit more about it. But welcome Jill. So excited. You’re here with us today.

Jill Turnbull 2:37
Kara, thank you so much. I’m so grateful for the opportunity to have a conversation about blue beauty. So

Kara Goldin 2:43
Jill was we were chatting right before Jill I guess you’re one of four kids one of seven actually. It right your your parents moved with four you were saying to from England to Australia, when you were were you part of that group or were you after that.

Jill Turnbull 3:00
So in 1962 they emigrated from England to Australia. They were 10 pound homies. So for 10 pounds, the whole family emigrated from England to Australia. So my parents immigrated 12,000 miles with four children under the age of five. Talk about adventure as

Kara Goldin 3:17
well. That is fearless. That’s everybody calls entrepreneurs fearless. But your parents were fearless. Right? Taking on that new adventure for sure. And what was your life like, as you know, in Australia as a little kid, were you always doing hair were you? Were you always kind of, you know, thinking about beauty or what what? Who was little Jill?

Jill Turnbull 3:42
You know what, it’s really interesting because that was one of the big adventures my parents embarked on. When I was a teenager, they took another trip. And my dad was a builder. And so I was about 11 and my parents converted a school bus. And they traveled up the east coast of Australia with seven children. Because my dad accepted a job with a big building company. And so they had to get all of us from Melbourne which is sort of like down like say Florida, they had to move the whole family up to Boston, just to give you a visual. So they you know, my dad picked up this boss and we drove up the east coast of Australia, which for me was a game changer. Traveling through the East Coast, camping out every night. Seeing the texture of Australia landscape, the ocean, it just was it just was blew my mind as a creative. It just gave me such a palette that you couldn’t get in a classroom. So for me as a teenager, I really believe that helped cultivate the person I am today as a as a fashion creative. So I’m so grateful.

Kara Goldin 5:00
Love it. So where did hair come in to play?

Jill Turnbull 5:03
So in Australia, and again, you know, for me because I was still in high school when my parents moved from Melbourne, you know, so my grandparents lived in Melbourne. My parents were up in Queensland. So to me, I had to make the decision. Do I finish school down south? Or do I go up north with my parents? So I went up north, because it was the school holidays. So we were off. But then I was going between my grandparents and my parents. And then in Australia, you can leave school at 15. So it was time for me to decide, okay, what do I want to do? My mom, and at those times, my mom would go to the salon every week to get her hair down. Remember those beehive days. So I would go with her on a Friday, and I really got good energy from the girls in the salon. So unbeknownst to my mom, Cindy, the manager, I spoke to her to see whether they had any part time work. So I got myself a job. And I went home and told my parents Look, if I get a job, can I stay up in Queensland? Do I have to go back to school? And of course, they didn’t know what I had been up to. So they said, Well, if you can get a job, then you can stay. Well, of course, I said, Well, actually, I have a job. And it’s part time. So I started working at the salon. And it just started from there, you know, and again, because I have that fire in me from my parents. It didn’t take me long to move up through the ranks. And at that time, we I did a four year apprenticeship. hairdressing is very different back then than it is now. So I quickly moved through the paces in the salon. And because it was an apprenticeship, you would spend one day a week going to college. And I was working in the suburbs, and I would go to college with all the city hairdressers, you know, the big fancy salon stylists. And I was like, why would a little bit of that, you know, the grass always looks greener on the other side, doesn’t it? Absolutely, very quickly. Within my second year, I had applied to work in one of the big salons in the city. And so I got accepted. And I think too, because I knew a lot of the stylists that work there that helped. So starting at this big city salon, I was the only female hairdresser that was working on the floor. So again, you know, you I don’t want to say that I had to fight for my space. But you definitely had to wear a different pair of shoes when you showed up at work. So that was the beginning of me seeing how the real corporate world worked in how you had to how you really had to be focused laser focused on what you wanted to achieve. And I started competing competitions for me I enjoyed again, you really had to be focused, and really know what you wanted to achieve. It was very expensive to compete. So I started educating, doing education to help pay for the competitions. Because you not only have to pay for your own expenses, you have to pay for your models expenses. And that’s when I really learnt the craft of detail in fashion. So it’s one of those things where being in Australia with 12,000 miles away from the big fashion hubs from Milan and New York. So I would buy all the big glossy magazines and look at all the details and want to mimic those, you know, when I competed, and you just really had to evolve from doing here to create the entire look, whether it be makeup, whether it be fashion. And because it was a competition, you had to be a really effective timewise. So you had to create the look, you had to be prepared. You had to have groomed your model. And you have to perform really quickly. And when I say quickly, you have to create the whole look maybe sometimes in 10 minutes.

Kara Goldin 9:04
So when you were saying competitions was this, were you actually cutting as well as doing color. No,

Jill Turnbull 9:11
it’s all finishing. So actually we do call it when you do competitions, you color to prep the hair. So that’s when I really learned the importance of chemistry and composition. So I even though I’m not a chemist, I understand chemistry and I understand how you have to manipulate the inside of the hair to get it to really perform which really leads into where my products are. So for me the big game changer came I’m not sure Can I jump into this. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can tell I don’t have a problem talking. I love it. So march of 2019 and I have been doing a lot of hair and makeup for editorial for fashion magazines. And again that way you know when you’re on set doing a shoot and you know I’m sure you’ve done many photo shoots Time is money. So I would get booked because I was very quick and very effective. So I got booked to do a photoshoot with Vogue Italia. The brief was all about sustainability. Prince William was interviewing David Attenborough about the impact of fashion. So everything on set had to be guaranteed sustainable. I went to a lot of the big hair care brands that I knew that I had worked with, I knew them that you know, the managers, personally. And it was so disappointing Kara, not one of them could give me a guarantee in writing. They could tell me it was sustainable. If they couldn’t put it in right now,

Kara Goldin 10:36
you hit the nail on the head with I think a lot of people, people want to they want that badge. They want to believe that it is but they’re not actually doing the research behind it. Which is, which is so interesting. So So you saw that hole?

Jill Turnbull 10:51
Well, what was interesting to me was that I drank that kool aid for years. You know, I really believed what I was told. And then when you know, because we did the fashion shoot, I leaned into my my knowledge of ingredients. So I went to the photoshoot with shea butter, which again, is a is an amazing moisturizer, it hydrates the inside of the hair, so I can get control. And then I also went with aloe vera, which again, two raw ingredients that I know I could get good performance. And I could honor the brief without question. Here was amazing. The photoshoot was amazing, everything was successful. It changed my my soul. That was a big game changer for me. So I found a chemist to clean lab. And I really started cultivating products. And for me, it was a lot more than just creating a haircare line. I grew up in Queensland, Australia, I would spend my weekend diving on the barrier reef. So I knew the impact of agree of ingredients, health, killing off one of our amazing great wonders of the world. So I really wanted to dissect, what are we putting in our water waste, you know, what are we putting on our body in the shower that’s washing down into the oceans. So when you look at it from that standpoint, you have to be very selective with what you choose. The other angle that I really looked at is growing up in Queensland when I was a teenager, the government issued us egg timers. So we could only have a three minute shower. So what a waste was a big aha for me. So like my haircare even though it’s a very concentrated ingredients, it all washes out within seconds. And that’s important to me. So what we put in the ocean, how quickly you know, how much water do we need to rinse it out is really important. So when you look at it from that standpoint, the science is really unique. So that’s why I only have five products in my hair care line. They’re all multitasking, like the wash for example. It is a shampoo, it’s a body wash, you can use it on your baby, it’s a multitasker can wash your clothes with it. I’m not gonna say that you can eat it, but it’s clean enough that you can Yeah, and again, all of the products that intermixable because they have more than one one task. You know,

Kara Goldin 13:18
I love it. And And so you’ve so you’ve got the five products. So what’s the one that is kind of the the one that everyone’s talking about

Jill Turnbull 13:27
in the haircare line, because I do have other products like I have a coconut based makeup, the no sweat Foundation, which stays on until you take it off. But in the haircare line, it’s the leaving the leaving definitely. I found recently a lot of my clients who have had COVID You know, they’re losing hair, it’s one of the side effects. So the leaving is something that you can put in every day, that is completely weightless. And all of the haircare is going to feed the hair from the inside. And that’s important, you know, and it’s not only important to feed the inside of the hair, but it’s important to feed the hair that’s growing inside your skin, so that when your hair grows, it’s growing nice and healthy. So all of the products are result, you know that they’re formulated to give you a certain result.

Kara Goldin 14:17
I love it. So how did you decide to do the skincare line in addition to a haircare line,

Jill Turnbull 14:22
you know, it’s interesting for I worked with the Washington ballet. So again, being a creative and, you know, part of my time was spent here on the east coast. And the Washington ballet is a huge. I mean, they’re athletes. So working with the ballerinas, they could do two performances a day. If they’re performing at the Kennedy Center, they can’t show the tattoos. So, and again, I’m being raised by my parents and being raised in Australia. It’s all about keep it simple, you know, less is more so either A fact finding creative. So I would work with the team at the Washington ballet, they would do one performance. And even before they came off after one set, the foundation that we were using, even though it was stage makeup, their tattoos had to be recovered. That wasn’t I needed to fix that, you know. So that’s when knowing chemistry, and again, I’m not a chemist, but I understand the chemistry. That’s when I went to chemists. And I said, Okay, this is my challenge, I need to create a foundation, that’s going to stay on until we take it off with cleanser. So that’s how the no sweat came about. And then the ballerinas loved it so much, they wanted to wear it in their free time. So we created the magic drops, which allows you to take that concentrated Foundation, because again, all of my products are concentrated, the magic drops will change the opacity, so you can go from a cream consistency concealer to like a tinted moisturizer. So again, less is more, you know, one product that does multiple tasks, which for me, that’s what it’s all about.

Kara Goldin 16:03
It’s incredible. I always just hearing you talk, it’s the beauty of, of actually being a founder, but I think also doing the work right behind it. Because you just you know, you really understand you’d been living with all of these products and all the confusion that was out there. I mean, even when I, you know, developed our initial product, hint water, it was, you know, I had been tricked by the diet soda industry for so many years thinking that I was I was actually doing better by drinking diet versus full sugar. And, and as I, you know, as I talked to consumers, I felt like, you know, the key reason why they were drinking diet was to get healthier, they may not have actually said that term, but they they probably didn’t like water very much. And so they knew they should drink water, they had people have been telling him to drink water for years, eight glasses plus, but they found water boring. And so they started getting on soda. And I feel like just having that experience on my own was something that really helped me to be able to develop my own, you know, line of products too. And I mean, we actually then moved into sunscreen or reef safe sunscreen, that doesn’t have any oxybenzone in it. That is huge. Yes. Yeah. And so people were like, Oh, you know, a water company developing a sunscreen. I mean, that’s crazy. But it really for me, this whole line of products was about purpose and about helping people get healthier. And I love that about your company too, because I think you realized the holes, you didn’t necessarily you wanted it for your customers, the, you know, Washington ballet, all of these, you know, you wanted to solve a problem, and which I love that it wasn’t just about I’m going to go develop products and, you know, make lots of money.

Jill Turnbull 18:08
And even with that, because you know, I’m still on the floor, I’m still in the trenches with my clientele. And my girls, the youngest client, I have youngest meaning in relationship is 15 years, some of my clients I’ve been doing for much longer than that. And they were they were my collaborators. So when I came back from London and told them, I’m like, Okay, I’ve got this is my new journey, I want you to have to be on board with me. So they were the ones who tried it, and put it through its paces and critiqued it for me. So each blend, I would give my girls some samples, and they would fondly pick it to pieces for me. But again, I’m so grateful. You know, that’s, to me. That’s what it’s about. That’s, that’s why I feel that I have been successful, purely because real people are using it in their real lives. With no, you know, no hidden agenda. You know, they were it’s unfiltered, the feedback that I was getting?

Kara Goldin 19:10
Well, I think also, as you know, you talked about 15 year olds, the Gen Z audience that’s out there. I mean, very interested in understanding what are the ingredients in the products? I totally everything that your product represents? I mean, vegan, cruelty free, all of that as well. Yeah. Right. Yeah, we’re super important. And it works. I mean, that’s the other thing. If it doesn’t work, then it’s all irrelevant. But if your products just are so, so awesome, so thank you. So the beauty business obviously is so competitive. It’s like it’s so hard to break into. How do you do that? Like you’ve got an idea for a product and you see a hole in the market, like what’s the first step like how do you get how do you get products out there? You know, For people to notice them, I mean, I think I feel like you had a clientele that you could, you could share it with them. And you’re at a trusted kind of communication with many people,

Jill Turnbull 20:12
I definitely do have and again, the girls that my hair clients have been coming to me some for 15 years, some for 20 years. So they definitely gave me unfiltered feedback. And they definitely are loyal users. And because of my prior relationships with beauty brands, I definitely do have cell phones that I could tap into. That’s not my market, I’m very clear with who my client is, my client, is you very ocean, educated, very clean, beauty educated, blue beauty is a little different than green beauty.

Kara Goldin 20:54
Explain that out. Let me jump into that. And we’ll have you continue on. But green beauty versus blueberry so people don’t in for those that don’t understand the difference.

Jill Turnbull 21:03
So green beauty is all about sustainability, and organic and recycling, and reusable, which is all good. It’s phenomenal. Blue beauty is is a newer trend that I’m finding a lot of people really don’t understand. So for us, blue beauty is everything that green beauty is yet again, it’s mindful of what’s going down the waterway, what’s going into our ocean, because this morning, Carol, when you had a shower, what you used on your body is going to be going down into the ocean. So it’s crazy, isn’t it. And even though we don’t think about it, you know, when you’re in the shower, you know how sometimes when you use beauty products, when you use a shampoo, you can still feel a little bit of residue on your skin. So you imagine that film, and I’m using that word broadly, that film building up in our waterway, and that’s what the fish are consuming, you know, the little beads that we use in our bowling, right? So blue beauty is all about the impact on the ocean. And the ingredient, you know how it does? How does it break down? How does it degrade? What is the impact on the ocean as as, as living organisms,

Kara Goldin 22:25
I love it. So what has surprised you about becoming an entrepreneur

Jill Turnbull 22:30
the most how difficult it is, you know, and that’s why reading your book undaunted was just such it’s like, oh, my goodness, I have found a friend. Do you know what I mean? It is such, you cannot take anything personally, it’s not about me personally, and I just really do daily affirmations of what my my focus is, you know, to me, this is my purpose, this is my commitment, our percentage of the sales go back to the barrier reef, so I do my part. And I don’t, even in daily tiny things, you know, when we ship we don’t use any sticky tape, we make sure that everything in our shipping can be recycled. You know, we make it everything that we can be used can be reused reusable. So all those tiny little elements of what you do takes a lot of thought. But it’s up to you as as the founder as the the person who is at the steering wheel, if that makes sense. You know? Yeah. A big in my house, if you if you leave the tap running while you’re brushing your teeth. That’s, you know, even those little things, you know, it’s all about water waste, and all those little impacts that we have on the ocean,

Kara Goldin 23:50
how do you sell your product today, we

Jill Turnbull 23:53
do have a few bit ticks that carry. And again, it’s about the mindset. So they need to be committed to the Ocean Safety. And we sell it online on our website, and we do you know, sell it in our store. And again, it’s it’s one of those where I want to be able to have one on one relationships with the customer so that they can have any of their concerns answered, so that we can really cultivate a good lifestyle for them.

Kara Goldin 24:23
I love it. Oh, yeah. I mean, you mentioned my book. I mean, I think that the number one reason why I wanted to write the book too, was that I felt like there was this big misunderstanding about entrepreneurs that I had heard over the years, like, you know, how did you take the risk from leaving a big tech job to going and starting your own company or, you know, you must be fearless or, you know, they wouldn’t see the the kind of daily struggles that I had along the way and everything from you know, things that I’m proud of like never missing payroll. Right, always like managing, you know, the managing that effort and going out and pitching, you know, when we were fundraising. I mean, you know, we would eventually raise money, but there were lots of nose. Lots of this isn’t right for me. And you mentioned not taking it personally. How do you get back up all of those things? Like, I just felt like there were stories that I had along the way that I don’t know a lot of entrepreneurs just don’t talk about it. They talk about, you know, how they’re successful and not talk about the failures. And I always want to hear about the challenging times. And that’s how we learn and and so those things I think, are those things were the main reason why I wrote the book. But I really, I love the fact that you, you know, we’re kind of in the industry, and then you decided to go and develop a product as you saw this whole, but you also continue daily to look at things like you’re not just about being sustainable, and having it be a stamp looking at ways to improve around blue beauty and coming up with this new concept, which I love reading about. I had never heard anyone really talk about that. And obviously, it makes total sense. Green beauty and sustainability. Yes, but but the blue beauty I thought was, you know, super, super interesting. I just hadn’t heard it defined. I mean, it’s a lot less talked about maybe in sort of, you know, commercial standards, don’t you think

Jill Turnbull 26:34
it’s a lot of work to make, ever. And that’s one of the things that I find interesting is when you go to beauty brands, and they say that they’re transparent, and you look at their website, one, do they have an ingredient list? And if they have an ingredient list is all of the ingredients in each product? You’d be surprised how few brands actually a 100% transparent. That was the biggest Aha, for me,

Kara Goldin 26:58
Well, you know what it has frustrated me over the years in particular with like hand soap, I started to realize that there were certain hand soaps, I touched my face. And I would you know, once in a while kind of get breakouts that just, you know, right by my chin. And then I started to realize that there’s no sort of policing of people reformulating products either. So they might come out with something, and then they start to think about, well, it’s cheaper to go and get it use this ingredient. And then I would look down at the label, and then it was totally changed. Or, you know, I won’t name any brands, but it was just a bummer to me. Because I just thought here I’ve been buying something for years and years and years. And then all of a sudden they reformulate How can they do that? How do I find out about products that have been reformulated? And

Jill Turnbull 27:56
unfortunately, and no one will look at the ingredients, you know, what I find the other big frustrating is that and again, one of my favorite products is shea butter, Aloe Vera, LG, and you look at the ingredient deck and and they’re like, 25th, down in the ingredient deck. It’s like it can that really help you. Yeah, so it’s really important to look at the ingredients and really educate yourself on the real ingredient. Not just the big fancy marketing term that they have for it, you know, through information, you do have to dig a little deeper, do you know what I mean? But it’s important, and I really wish that that the bigger beauty brands would, because they have the cash, they have the money they have the time they have the resources. I wish they would really you know, make a stand and be really transparent.

Kara Goldin 28:48
You know, it’s it’s interesting, I when we launched our sunscreen, I’ve shared the story on a few podcasts before but it I really wanted to develop a sunscreen that I wanted to wear without oxybenzone in it and I didn’t want to mineral based sunscreen because at the time, most of them were very thick, and I never put it on my face. The mineral based And anyway, so it was interesting because we developed our sunscreen had to go through FDA approval. And then actually we had gotten it into a hotel in Hawaii, and hom D who’s the you know, founder and CEO of chobani reached out to me and said somebody is ripping off your your brand and it says hint on it and they put it on a sunscreen and I said no it’s it’s our sunscreen and we’re just testing it in this in this little hotel and he was like oh that you know it’s really interesting like your water brand in here. You’re doing sunscreen and he was all you know confused for a minute and anyway, I it was it was interesting because then it was the same day there As an executive from a sunscreen company reached out to me and said, I’m, I’m so confused, like, how did you know to do this? We’ve been thinking about this inside of our company for a long time to create a product call that doesn’t have oxybenzone in it, but the fact that you took an ingredient, and you called it out on the bottle, like no one has done this, I love it. And yes, and I said, Well, maybe you should, maybe you should go do it. And so what I realized that I’ve always thought about hint as a purpose driven brand. But what I realized that servicing customers, there’s going to be customers that are going to buy my product. But there’s also going to be customers that are knowing that I have this and starting to question other products that maybe they buy. Yeah, and I think that that’s what you’re the you can’t control them being transparent. But when you write, every day, you’re transparent, and people are going to start to look at, you know, why isn’t that brand that I buy from more transparent. So I think it’s, it’s fascinating. And the, the mark that you will make, plus having amazing products is just so huge. So where do people find out more about you, Jill, and also get your products if you can tell everybody the website?

Jill Turnbull 31:24
Yeah, it’s Jill Turnbull calm is the the website, and I’m happy to give you know, I can do a Kira golden code, if they wanted to get a 50% discount.

Kara Goldin 31:37
That would be great. We’ll put that in the show notes. For sure. That’s I love it. That’s, that’s terrific. And also you just are, you know, a wealth of knowledge, I feel like to I’m so grateful for you coming on today and sharing this information. And

Jill Turnbull 31:53
can I just give you one other little shout out about your book, I loved reading the little paragraph about your son, learning that so few women were entrepreneurs and founders, I have a 20 year old. So I share everything with my male 20 year old purely because I want him to see, you know, what it’s really like for women and the struggle. So I really enjoyed reading that, that in your book.

Kara Goldin 32:22
Oh, thank you. Well, I’m a big believer that, you know, they’re they’re sponges, all of our kids that are in this, you know, next generation and they, they see you doing it, and that’s what they’re gonna follow. Right? And, and, you know, so many people have said to me, do you think he’ll work in the company, I just want them to be happy. I want them to do be passionate about stuff. And I think more and more I feel like that’s what they’re learning. But they’re also, I don’t think there’s any question that they don’t respect to women and don’t think that women can’t go do the job just by living in this house, for sure. So, so thank you, I appreciate that. I’ve heard that from a lot of people that you know, really sharing the story about, about my own children in the book too, and sort of what they’ve been getting out of it are, are important. So appreciate that. And thank you so much. Still, I really loved hearing your story. And thanks, everybody, for listening. I hope you’ll give this episode five stars and on whatever platform you’re listening on. And definitely follow me on social at Kara golden with an AI. And also if you haven’t gotten a copy of my book, please pick up a copy or get it on Audible. It’s on Amazon, as well as it’s called undaunted, overcoming doubts and doubters. And of course, be sure to grab a case of hinter sunscreen and Jill’s products as well. And thanks, everybody. We’re here every Monday and Wednesday with amazing, amazing stories for you all to learn from and enjoy. So thanks, everyone for listening and have a great week. Thanks, Kara. before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book calm and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet We’re at Kara golden and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara golden thanks for listening