Julia Boorstin: Author of When Women Lead & CNBC Correspondent

Episode 298

Julia Boorstin, CNBC’s Senior Media & Tech Correspondent and creator of CNBC Disruptor 50 list shares more about HER career journey AND talks about her new book, When Women Lead. Boorstin is known for creating and launching the CNBC Disruptor 50, an annual list she oversees highlighting private companies challenging companies in established industries. She is now the author of the fabulous book, When Women Lead. We discuss her book that shares stories of over sixty female CEOs and leaders and dozens of new studies including what women achieve, why they succeed and how we can learn from them when they do lead.
Hear more about all of this on this episode. Today on #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone. It’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I’m here with my next guest. Julia Boorstin, who is an incredible, incredible figure at CNBC. She is a senior media and tech correspondent, so you may know her name. But she also wrote a great book called when women lead so many entrepreneurs covered in this book, all women, and people who have really busted through and and done a lot of incredible, incredible things. And Julia has also done incredible, incredible things. So I’m so proud of her. You may know her for CNBC, disruptor 50, which she has run since 2013. She created it incredible, highlighting private companies transforming the economy and challenging companies in established industries. And like I said, she’s now the author, and we’re gonna get going and talk to her a bit about all of these various stories and lessons learned in her books. So I can’t wait to get started and hear a little bit more. So welcome, Julia.

Julia Boorstin 1:56
Thank you, thank you so much for having me. I’m such a big fan. Well, thank

Kara Goldin 2:00
you for coming on. So first of all, I just want to start by hearing a little bit more about you, and you as a kid, and your journey has just been incredible. You’ve been a journalist, you are now an author, you are just breaking boundaries, right and left. So I want to hear a little bit more about what you thought you’d be doing. Who were you as a kid? Were you constantly journaling and writing? Were you did you have dreams of becoming an entrepreneur? Who was Julia?

Julia Boorstin 2:33
Well, I would say I was always writing, I found some old journals. They’re pretty boring. But I did write in them a lot. But I always was on the newspaper. You know, my parents were writers, my grandfather was a historian, I sort of grew up in a, in a family where there were books on the shelves that a lot of different people in my family had written, whether it was aunts and uncles, or, or my parents or grandfather. And so I sort of had writing in my blood and but also writing in the air. And my parents always told me, you know, you could do anything when you grow up, my mom always reassured me, you know, things aren’t equal for women now, but by the time you grew up, things will be different. You’ll have all the opportunities in the world, you will be able to do anything. And, and I believed her. It wasn’t until I got into the workforce, I realized things were not exactly equal. But interesting on the point of entrepreneurship is that, you know, I grew up in Los Angeles, we knew a lot of people who worked in the entertainment industry, I knew a lot of people who were doctors and lawyers, and professionals but not in the in the entrepreneurship world. And so I didn’t know any entrepreneurs, and there wasn’t this culture of talking about and celebrating entrepreneurship the way there is now. And now in retrospect, I’m really annoyed, I think I would have loved to be entrepreneurial, but it wasn’t something that felt like was on the table. And I also felt like as a woman, the idea of doing something in the STEM fields wasn’t really on the table. All my girlfriends and I were really into writing and, and more of the arts. And I just didn’t think about you know, I was I did great in math, I was great at math I was but no one said, Hey, why don’t you pursue computer science, it just wasn’t something that anyone ever suggested to me. And so I wish I just known more about it. And so now I’m so impressed by all these amazing women, particularly those in the tech space. And I really wanted to get some of their stories out there to let people know, especially women, that there’s so many opportunities, and nothing should be off the table. And there are just so many role models, especially those that we don’t know about or talk about.

Kara Goldin 4:35
One of the things I know many of these entrepreneurs that you highlighted in the book, but over the years, I’ve been struck by entrepreneurs, both women as well as men, and you know, they didn’t start off becoming an entrepreneur. I mean, they were, they were doing other careers and then they had an idea and they were curious about something thing and they jumped in and just tried. And they, to some extent, probably feared that it wouldn’t work out. But they thought, What the heck, I’m gonna just go ahead and try. What was your first job right after college.

Julia Boorstin 5:16
So one reason I’m so impressed by entrepreneurs is because I’m so risk averse myself, I’ve actually only had two jobs. I spent six years at Fortune Magazine. And during the time, I was also contributing to CNN and CNN, CNN Headline News. And now I’ve been at CNBC for over 16 years. And it’s kind of crazy to been in two companies for so long. I don’t think I know anyone else who’s had so few jobs in such a long period of time. But I think part of that is because I just got really lucky. I graduated college in 2000. I actually got my job at Fortune magazine, a couple of months before I graduated right before the stock market started its plummet in 2000. So I was the last person hired in Fortune Magazine, before the stock market did that crash. And so I just had a really amazing opportunity at 14, I actually took that job at 14, because it was the best option of all the jobs I had applied to, but I had no experience with business. I had never taken an econ class. And I was worried that business news was going to be a little boring, because I was interested in the arts and in politics, and I wanted to work in a Time magazine or an Entertainment Weekly. But those options I had there more like fact checking or writing captions at Fortune, I just had a real reporting opportunity. So I said, Okay, I’ll take that chance. And they took a chance on me and fortunes theory at the time was you can’t teach a business person how to write it’s much easier to teach a journalist about business. So I think one reason I’ve had so few jobs is because I’ve been really lucky what those jobs are. And I’ve been able to be entrepreneurial within each of those roles.

Kara Goldin 6:56
Definitely. One of the things that struck me and watching you over the years is that you have such a curiosity, when you are engaging with interviewing not only CEOs and founders, but I would consider major disruptors in the industry. You’re primarily covering tech, but you’re doing a lot more than than that. And you also created this disrupter 50 program that doesn’t profile public companies, like a lot of the companies that you’re covering, but private companies, and what was it that made you so kind of curious about the private companies? And I mean, to me, actually taking an idea to a network and saying, here’s this, here’s what I want to go and focus on. I mean, that is an entrepreneur, that’s a disrupter. It’s exactly the same skills. So I think you have it probably in your future somewhere in there, Julia?

Julia Boorstin 7:58
Well, we’ll see. But But I do think that, you know, being a journalist, you know, part of what I do is react to that breaking news of the day, but part of it is trying to come up with new ideas. Let’s figure out a new way to tell stories about the metaverse or there’s this new technology, let me do a story that explains what NF T’s are and what their opportunities are. So there’s a lot of coming up with little ideas and presenting them and pitching them. But you know, I was, I was really interested in all these new businesses. You know, I wanted to cover media, because media was undergoing this transformation with Netflix and with YouTube. And I was reporting on Facebook before Facebook was a big public company. You know, my brother was still in college when Facebook launched. And he was telling me about I said, this thing could be huge. It could be crazy. I want to report on this. And there just wasn’t much of a structure to tell these stories about startups on CNBC at the time, because CNBC is interest is really focusing on investors and big public companies. But I thought, hey, what if there’s a way for us to put these companies on the radar of our viewers, I want to learn about these companies. So much of it was selfish, that I was excited about the startups and the crazy innovations they were coming up with. So I said, let’s create a structure. You know, I reported on Facebook’s IPO and I said, Hey, this was a huge IPO. Let’s get these companies on the map before they go public. So I selfishly was excited to learn about these tech driven companies across all sorts of different sectors, and thought this would be a great way to highlight the 50 fastest growing ones. And as a result, I got to interview fantastic CEOs and learn about all these amazing tech driven disruptions and that have changed everything. You know, everything about the way we live from Airbnb to companies like SpaceX, to companies like Uber, so it’s really given me a great window into to innovation, disruption, and then also, and these tech trends that have defined our future

Kara Goldin 9:48
So, so interesting, so let’s get to your book. It’s so well done. I’m surprised that this is your first book because you’re such a great writer and And, obviously so curious and you dig in to kind of the questions that I would want to know about clearly. So how did you decide to write when women lead and why women,

Julia Boorstin 10:14
so I, it actually comes back to the disruptor 50. I was interviewing and meeting hundreds of amazing CEOs, and there are fewer women, you know, there’s all this data about how women are not represented in the ranks of CEOs. I mean, right now, women are about 8% of all the CEOs of the Fortune 500, the numbers tend to be even smaller in the startup space. So is interviewing CEOs noticing that there were that many women but I was really impressed by the women I was interviewing, they seem to have a different approach to solving problems, they were thinking long term as well as more immediately, and a lot of them have less access to capital. So while I was interviewing those CEOs, I was also working on this other project called closing the gap. For CNBC, where we look at the people and individuals that are closing gender and diversity gaps, and I was coming across all of this data, that how little access to capital female founders have female founders get 3%, or less of all venture capital dollars, 3% or less, I say or less, because it’s been about 3%, every year for the past decade. Last year, in 2021, it was 2% of all venture capital dollars. The numbers are crazy. I mean, the numbers are so crazy. I’ve had copy editors asked me if they are typos, they are not typos, they are nuts. So I was looking at those numbers, I was meeting these amazing women. And I thought, Gosh, of course these women are amazing. They have defied the odds, they are by definition, exceptional. And if they’ve been able to defy the odds, I want to learn from them. And I also really want to understand how they did it. So I thought, Okay, this is a perfect book for me to write because it taps into my interest in innovation, and disruptive leadership, and also my interest in gender equity and what it’s going to take for us to get there. So So I wanted to tell the stories of these amazing women, because I think a lot of them are surprising and really inspiring. At least they have been to me, but also to dig into the data behind it. Why have these women been able to lead in such successful ways? And what can we learn from them both for our own personal development, but also to change the way we think about business and leadership in general?

Kara Goldin 12:24
You know, it’s interesting, as you’re talking about that, I feel like there are a number of groups that are funding early stage women. But it but in order to scale, a company, you often need to get to venture, not always, and there’s more and more people who are investing in early stage that are getting a little bit later stage, you know, for those listening, that are not really familiar with, you know, the financing stages, and sort of where you go, depending on the size of your company. There’s Angel, there’s venture, there’s private equity, there’s so many different options, but a lot of what Julia is talking about, you know, really allows women to be able to scale company, and that is 100% blocked by access to capital along the way. But what do you think is stopping women besides the capital?

Julia Boorstin 13:24
Well, I think what’s really interesting is I think there is, you know, people are like, who’s to blame? Who’s to blame? Who are you going to point fingers at? Whose fault is this gender equity gap. And I think that I don’t think pointing fingers helps anybody. It’s not effective. I think understanding the problem is valuable, because then we could all better navigate it and even identify our own opportunity to like reject stereotypes, I think a lot of it is not malicious, but it comes down to pattern matching. And the fact that human instinct is to go with a pattern of something, you know, has worked in the past. The thing about venture capital investing is that a lot of bets are made before companies have a huge track record, you know, a lot of investments, millions and millions of dollars are invested in companies when they’re an idea and a team or when they’re a prototype, you know, or, or a website that doesn’t have revenue, let alone profits. But when investors are making those decisions long before there’s a track record for a company, they’re more likely to say, Does this person match the pattern of someone I’ve invested in before and had that success? And I think that the power of pattern matching was just so dramatic, that we can’t underestimate it. And it’s a version of unconscious bias. And we all do it ourselves. I mean, I think one thing that’s interesting is that there’s a lot of data showing that women raise less money than men at the early stages, the companies, when investors are naturally looking for entrepreneurs who fit a type such as someone who has had a successful company before that’s a great type of entrepreneur to invest in, right? It seems safer. Someone who has an engineering background, you know, someone who has a, you know, worked In a senior role at a tech company, but what’s interesting is once you get to the C stage of fundraising, so that’s pretty far along, you know, the company is pretty far along. Once companies have a proven track record, women and men raise the same level. So at the seed stage, the bias is stripped down, because the numbers are there in the, you know, finances of a company. So that shows you that once women get to that level, they’re not going to be judged with bias, because the numbers speak to them for themselves. So I think it’s really interesting to like, think about ways to strip out bias. And there are some amazing tools now for hiring, because the resume has been criticized as being not a good way to measure people’s potential. And increasingly, companies are saying, Okay, how do we hire in a way that’s really going to not just find out what experiences someone had what experience someone might have been privileged enough to have? But how we can? How can we hire in a way that really measures whether they will be good at this journey, or whether they’ll have the potential to grow into this job? And I think the more we can rely on data and the left on instinct, the more successful we’ll all be, it’s hard not to rely on instinct. That’s what we’re designed to do. But the data oftentimes will tell us that our instincts are absolutely wrong and not not going to help us for the long run.

Kara Goldin 16:15
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Julia Boorstin 18:35
Well, there’s so many examples of how failure has enabled future success or even you know, people have been able to pivot into entirely new categories of things they didn’t know anything about. I mean, it’s interesting, because I think about Gail Bekker, she created caulipower, which is a cauliflower pizza crust company. And she did that when she was in her 50s. She had not been an entrepreneur, but she had had a lot of success in a corporate PR role. And she had been a successful executive for her whole life. And she said, this isn’t what I want anymore, I’m gonna do something totally different. And that wasn’t learning from failure that was taking her outside her perspective and her experience and saying I can apply this to something totally new. Or I think about Karen Seidman Becker, who created this company called Clear biometrics company, you’re probably familiar with them. If you go through the airport, they can help you go through security faster. They also now have health tech capabilities. So if you’re going to a conference, you’re going to big office building, you can link your vaccination status, etc. But what’s so amazing about her is that she had gone through all these prior crises. And this is a company that really pivoted Well, during the pandemic, they could have gone out of business, you know, if any business was gonna go out of business, it would have been one that was really relying on airline travel. So I interviewed her and I said, How could you figure out how to pivot and how to stay alive as a company during this crazy time when everything was under siege? And she said, I have been through so many crises, she had been through nine, her office was in, you know, lower Manhattan during 911. She had been through that she had seen how that that part of Manhattan had rebuilt and this idea of taking a crisis as an opportunity to rebuild. Which by the way, that crisis also inspired her to try to think about things that would make airplane travel safer, she had been through the the.com crash of 2001 thing she learned there is even though her firm had lost a lot of money in their investments, they watched how Apple continued to invest in technology and new products after that.com bust, and she thought, you have to keep investing in a downturn. That is the only way you can succeed. For the long run to every crisis. She learned from in one crisis, she she had made some major mistakes in the 2008 financial crisis, she liquidated her assets, she was running a financial management term, firm at the time, and she panicked, she said, This is a disaster. I gotta get out of the market. She liquidated the assets, return them to her investors, but it was a disaster. And what she learned from that is, that was a mistake. Sometimes you need to figure out how to think for the long term and not just panic in the moment. And so that all of those different crises, some she had succeeded in the moment, some she had failed in the moment all of those crises were learning opportunities for her that she could bring into clear and make it the success it is today,

Kara Goldin 21:24
you talk about the importance of women coming together to help each other. And was there any consistent thread amongst these entrepreneurs that you heard all of these

Julia Boorstin 21:35
entrepreneurs had faced challenges, but they also had amazing networks of women and men that had helped them along the way. I want to my my takeaways from the book is that, you know, it takes a it takes a village and everyone’s village is going to look different. But but build your village. And there’s such amazing data about the power of female networks to help each other not just like get some advice. It’s not about like getting together with a group of women and having them give you advice on a specific problem. But building a network that you can meet with regularly can actually have meaningful impact on your business outcomes. There’s data showing that women that have a tight knit group of diverse women with diverse perspectives is important because you don’t want to just be friends with the three people who work down the hall from you at your company. It’s better to have diverse perspectives. But also I love the data about how being together with a group of women can help eliminate the negative impact of stereotypes. And if women are just solo doing their thing, we’re reminded of a stereotype they’re going to do worse on a math test if they’re told the stereotype is that women are bad at math. But if they’re put in a group of small women, and then they’re told, Hey, women are bad at math, and then they’re given a math test, they’ll do great, because being together with a group of women can help just eliminate that negative impact. And so the fact that I mean, I know that hanging out with my girlfriends, when I’m feeling down, or I’m anxious about a work thing is going to help me out that was just my sort of my gut instinct about why I want to see my friends, but I’m having a hard time at work. The fact that there’s science behind that, it’s something that we all need to remember and tap into. And there are amazing organizations and companies that are designed to help women ask each other for professional help. Women are not accustomed, we’re not socialized to be like, hey, I really need a favor with my work, but men do it. And a lot of these organizations like chiefs, or the crew or nonprofits like all raise, they’re trying to destigmatize that. So we can all tap into each other’s power.

Kara Goldin 23:36
Absolutely. And coming up with ideas too, that are new, right, that are new categories, no one else is doing it. So it’s, I don’t know, maybe this is a little bit of a stereotype. But I don’t feel like women go and create companies that are already in existence, right? They don’t go and knock off, you know, a company, because maybe they think they can do it slightly better. Instead, I feel like a lot of the women that I know that are creating companies are trying to create companies and trying to get them funded, are doing something totally unique and different. And they’re visionary entrepreneurs. And that’s hard.

Julia Boorstin 24:18
Really, it’s hard. But also, there’s so much opportunity. I mean, we’ve seen so many women succeed in creating products for women. There’s this whitespace I mean, look in the health tech space. There’s this new category of femtech, which is like health tech companies designed to help women a lot of them around fertility, or menopause are problems and life phases that only impact women. And these are areas that just haven’t been under invested in for ever forever. And now we’re starting to see more and more companies pop up around areas like maternal health, and there’s whitespace there because women didn’t have the opportunity to create those companies and now they’re saying I understand this problem. This is something that I can help with and bringing Add that unique perspective to a huge financial opportunity. That’s what I think is so exciting, like the fact that no one’s built these companies. That’s a that’s a whiff. That’s a miss. It’s a huge mark, you know, women are 50% of the market, people should be creating more companies for them and not just in the retail space in every space. Absolutely.

Kara Goldin 25:19
I think one of the things that I think about, you know, where I’ve seen women Excel is over the last couple of years during the pandemic, and I’ve seen some of the data around that. And I know you’ve covered a lot of that as well. But you know, how have women stacked up in terms of leading during the pandemic companies versus men?

Julia Boorstin 25:38
Well, one thing that I have to say before we get into the leadership is that women have been hit harder during the pandemic, more women lost their jobs, women suffered more setbacks, more women had to quit their jobs to deal with childcare. So there has been a she session is what they’re calling it in terms of the negative impact of women on the pandemic. And now with inflation, and all these recessionary pressures, there are a lot of concerns that women workers are going to be hit harder. But when it comes to leadership, there’s a lot of data showing that women do better in times of crisis and women did better. During the pandemic. I mean, that the numbers, the statistics out about female leaders of countries during the pandemic and how they fared in terms of preserving life, that data was overwhelming. There was this question of, you know, are women doing better as leaders of countries like countries like New Zealand, or Germany with Angela Merkel adds in that first year, the pandemic? Did they do better at preserving life and minimizing deaths? And, you know, why was that? And there were two, two theories. One was, was it the woman who’s just leading in a different way? Or is it that countries that elect women are more likely to have policies in place that prioritize health care, and long term long term benefits. But there was no doubt that that the decisiveness of women, the willingness to rely on data over ego, was incredibly valuable in health outcomes during the pandemic. And then in terms of leadership of companies, there are a lot of studies showing that women are often put into positions of power, in what’s called a glass cliff, when it looks like a company is failing, the board will put in a female CEO, there are many reasons that could be one is who knows what’ll happen. But we’re already in a bad situation, what’s the worst that could happen if we put in this woman. So they’re often put into these glass glass Cliff situations where things are looking bad. But when women are put into these tough situations, whether it’s running a company, or being you know, they’re already running a company, or they’re put into an a startup, the data shows that they actually perform better than men do in those crisis situations. One thing they also do better at is leading with empathy, which increasingly employees really, really need.

Kara Goldin 27:45
That’s incredible. One of the stories that you and I were talking about earlier, around mission based companies, I found really, really fascinating that, you know, oftentimes, I mean, you, you can share a little bit more about this, but the women versus men are definitely getting the early stage capital. But why don’t you share a little bit more about that

Julia Boorstin 28:09
it’s really interesting. So statistically, women are more likely to found companies with an additional purpose. So yes, it’s a company, they want to make money, but it also has some environmental or social benefit. Maybe it’s a health tech company, maybe it’s going to help the environment. But one thing that’s really interesting when it comes to fundraising is that there’s this great study out of Harvard Business School of how students reacted to different pitches. These are business school students evaluating different pitches. And the male and female students listen to pitches from a man and a woman, they listened to the same pitch, they rated the male CEO making this pitch higher, they said, this business seems better if it was coming from a male CEO, then the professors who were doing this experiment changed one thing, the pitch, they told the student they had the the actors who are delivering the pitch, say that the company also had a social benefit, it was going to help the environment or it’s going to help society and they have these actors go out and deliver the pitch again, once the company has had a social benefit, the students ranked the female CEO as high as the male CEO. Women are expected to be empathetic women are expected to be helping the world and somehow having a social focus eliminated the bias and the stereotypes that women shouldn’t be leaders. So it indicates that women will have a better chance of raising money if they have some social or an environmental purpose associated with their company. But it’s just to meet the mere fact that there is such clear data showing that kind of bias against female CEOs but also in favor of female leaders to display these characteristics of empathy and, and caring. It just shows you that there’s so much buried in our in our society about about expectations and pattern matching back to the pattern matching. Yeah,

Kara Goldin 29:56
the pattern matching concept is so so interesting, for sure, and I I absolutely agree. So what are some of the key takeaways? I bet this book was a lot of fun to write and do the research and do these interviews, because it’s you probably saw a consistent thread. But you also saw some differences amongst some of the entrepreneurs. Was there any key takeaways?

Julia Boorstin 30:19
Yeah, I mean, I thought I would, I thought I would discover the all these women had come out with their own superpower, they were sort of came straight out of the gate, graduated from college, ready to lead with one of these traits or another one was, you know, best at going to be best at, you know, drawing out the best of teams and other might be super empathetic leader, I just thought that people were born leaders. And the one thing I found across all these different characteristics, dozens and dozens and dozens of CEOs is that everyone had to develop their strengths. No one came out of the gate, like Athena from the head of Zeus ready to fight in that in the business battle, everyone had to figure out what they were good at and get better at it. There’s some amazing data about how female athletes are more likely to be CEOs. And what I liked about that is the real takeaway there is the reason athletes are good leaders is because they’re good at measuring their progress, setting benchmarks, figuring out where they are, and where they want to get to, and pushing themselves to succeed. And I was reassured and inspired by the fact that everyone had to, to push themselves, really develop their leadership strengths, and therefore all of us can develop our strengths, whether it says, an you know, an employee or an entrepreneur, there’s just so much room for all of us to improve, because all of these women have come so so far in their own strength. And then another key takeaway I found is that, you know, I used to go by the Serenity Prayer, you know, don’t don’t bother wasting energy on things you can’t control. But in fact, I found that actually understanding what the obstacles are, doesn’t just need to get you down, it can be a really useful and empowering tool, because you’re like, Okay, this is the bias I’m going to face. This is the fact you know, there are these facts about how my company, you know, may do XY and Z, I just think it’s really useful to know the obstacles, and then you can better navigate them and also not let stereotype or bias get you down. Because once you understand that, their stereotype or bias out there, or here are the historical or structural things that you’re going to be up against, then you can say, okay, that’s not about me, I’m not gonna let that bother me and hurt my feelings. It has nothing to do with me. So let me just use that data and all that information about double standards, or whatever it may be to find a way a path around it. And once you stop taking it personally, it’s a lot easier to navigate around. I felt

Kara Goldin 32:40
like even if you’re an entrepreneur, or not an entrepreneur, I should say or not in business. There are so many tidbits in this book and lessons, and it’s just very motivating, very, very inspiring. So very nice job, and everybody should get a copy of when women lead. Julia, where’s the best place to find it? We’re in presale right now. So it’s launching on October 11. But can you share a little bit more about where’s the best place?

Julia Boorstin 33:12
Yes, when women lead, you can find it at any bookseller, you can find it on Amazon or your local bookstore. And you can also find more information and all the links on my website, which is Julia boston.com. And if you search when women leader, my name, hopefully that will all come up. And I also have some more resources and fun tests and things on the website to test your own empathy and the like, stuff like that. That’s really fun. So so check it out. And I appreciate everyone checking out the book.

Kara Goldin 33:39
Thank you so much, Julia.

Julia Boorstin 33:41
Thank you, Kara.

Kara Goldin 33:42
Thanks all for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. And I want to thank all of our guests and our sponsors. And finally, our listeners keep the great comments coming in. And one final plug. If you have not read or listened to my book undaunted, please do so you will hear all about my journey, including founding, scaling and building the company that I founded. Hint we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks everyone for listening and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight said Send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening