Interview Replay: Kara on Everybody Pulls The Tarp with Andrew Moses

Episode 262.5

This week Andrew talks with Kara Goldin. Kara is the founder of Hint, the leading unsweetened flavored water brand loved by millions. In 2004, Kara was addicted to diet soda—at times drinking 10 cans per day. One day she cut diet soda out of her life and started drinking water. She began slicing up fruit to put in her water and turned the idea into one of the most successful beverage companies in history. Kara has been named to Fortune’s Most Powerful Women Entrepreneurs list and her book Undaunted is a Wall Street Journal bestseller. This conversation is all about the power of persistence, being authentic, and how to create your own opportunities.

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be you just want to make sure you will get knocked down but just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Today’s episode is a bonus episode. I hope you enjoy it. And please make sure to tune in Monday for a brand new episode of the Kara Goldin show. Enjoy.

Andrew Moses 0:58
You’re listening to everybody pulls the tarp, the go to podcast for high performers. I’m Andrew Moses. Each week, you’ll hear my thought provoking conversations with Olympians, pro athletes, CEOs, elite coaches, best selling authors and other high performers to uncover their secrets to success. Get ready to be inspired each week when we talk about leadership, teamwork, work ethic and more. Are you ready? Let’s go

Hi, everyone. This week, my guest is Kara Goldin. Kara is the founder of hint, the leading unsweetened flavored water brand loved by millions. In 2004. Kara was addicted to diet soda, at times drinking 10 Cans per day. One day, she cut diet soda out of her life and started drinking water. Kara saw immediate health benefits, but thought water was too boring. She began slicing up fruit to put in her water and turn the idea into one of the most successful beverage companies in history. Kara has been named to Fortune’s Most Powerful Women Entrepreneurs list. And her book undaunted is a Wall Street Journal bestseller. Our conversation is all about the power of persistence, being authentic, and how to create your own opportunities. I can’t wait for you to hear Carol’s story and everything she has learned on her journey. So let’s pull the tarp and get straight to Kara Goldin. The first story I want to start with is one and when I was reading your book on daunted I was immediately drawn to and I said, I have to talk to Kara, you wrote a letter to the managing editor of Fortune, essentially asking for a job or an interview. And he wrote back, what led you to write that letter and what happened when he wrote back?

Kara Goldin 2:52
And doesn’t everyone write back? Right? It’s, I mean, why not? What the heck. So? Well, I wrote the managing editor. This was back in the day when email wasn’t really a possibility, or at least not in the mainstream. So I wrote him a real letter, pen and paper and said, Hey, I want to come and work for fortune. I learned a lot about finance through reading Fortune Magazine. And it kind of demystified a lot of stuff that I was learning in school, I was a minor in finance, major in journalism. So I thought I could tie my two things that I was focusing on in school and to this unbelievable job. And he wrote me a note back and said, if you’re ever in the New York area, then definitely let me know. And so I didn’t ask for permission on when I can come, I instead just said, I’m going to figure out how to get to New York. And I’ll probably wrap some other interviews around, getting out there is when I’m out there as well. And then it was back in the days when all of the Time Magazine, which is one of fortune was underneath the time Umbrella was in the time in life building on Avenue of the Americas and I walked into the building, I was like mesmerized by everything around me. There was no security at that time. And so I walked right up to the HR department because that’s where you get a job, right? You walk into the HR offices, and I shared that I wanted to see martial lobe with the receptionist, and she said, you have an appointment and I said, I have a letter that said that if I’m ever in the New York area, and poor thing, she had no idea what to do with me. She called the head of HR over and said, What do I say and the head of HR dropped the news to me that I wasn’t going to get a job at Fortune magazine that he was just being nice to me. And, you know, I basically listen and then said, Well, is there any other jobs in the building because I’d love to work here. I think it’d be awesome and and the timing, I think of the whole thing was so perfect. She had probably just been lectured about maybe somebody who really needed an executive assistant at Time Magazine. And so I went and interviewed with Brooke McMurray. And Brooke was a little, like, surprised that this came up last minute. And she said, Wait, so how did you get here? And I showed her the letter, and I said, I was here to interview and, but he couldn’t meet with me. And so, you know, she just she loved the story, and the tenacity and sort of the curiosity, and the connecting the dots and all this and she said, Yeah, you should come work for me, it’ll be great. Like, you’re gonna do awesome, right? So you know, it’s a, it’s a funny story. It wasn’t funny to me while I was going through that day, for sure. But more than anything, I think it’s a story that I’ve shared with people over the years that if you don’t try, if you can’t come up with, with sort of a plan B, immediately, you know, I think being myself actually sharing my story. And sort of, you know, how I saw it was something that Brooke found endearing in some way. And and I think she also loved the fact that I wasn’t holding back I wasn’t trying to be, I wasn’t telling her that I was, you know, the previous CEO of a company, I was just a girl from Scottsdale, Arizona, who just graduated from college, and I wanted to work in New York. And like, for a great company that I admired. What’s so

Andrew Moses 6:41
neat about that, I mean, it’s, there’s so many levels, right to get into their care. I mean, first, the initiative to write the letter, most people probably wouldn’t even write the letter, then he sends the letter back to you. Now, we don’t know if it was a form letter that somebody signed, if this was something that he did hundreds of times, or if he responded to just you, it doesn’t matter. Now, you have an offer from him to touch base, if you’re ever in town, you took that literally, and said, I’m going to go to town and I’m gonna I’m going to touch base when I’m there, I think I would have done the exact same thing. Now. It reminds me of a of a point in my career that I actually regret I, I had gotten to know at the time, he was the former chairman of Merrill Lynch. And I had pitched a fundraiser to him that I was organizing at the time. And he became the biggest donor of that fundraising year. And, you know, I was young, and I say, I was young and mature, stupid, whatever, whatever phrase you want to use the time but, you know, I hadn’t gotten or I was a little slow with my thank you notes at the time. And a thank you note came from him first. So he sends me it was hand written care. Yeah. And it said from the chairman, the former chairman of Merrill Lynch, and it said, Andrew, I want to thank you for allowing me to be part of the fundraising effort. I appreciate you reaching out to me. And my offices that I keep he has passed away since but he said at the time, my offices, that I keep her in Princeton, New Jersey, let me know, anytime if you want to come by. Now, this is Kara, this is about 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes from where I was, you know, living at home for the summer, this was during college. And I said to myself, this was a he was just being nice. Yeah, he doesn’t really want to meet with me. Yeah. And what I learned over time, was he probably did want to meet with me. And it was an immense missed missed opportunity. And since then, I strive to never miss an opportunity, right? Because you don’t get if you don’t ask, and if somebody offers something, you, you don’t get it if you don’t do it, and I’m curious, is that like, approach to things, something that’s always been a part of you that fearlessness that if he said, Come to New York and ask for an interview, I’m going to take him up on that, is that always been part of your DNA? You know,

Kara Goldin 8:55
I think it’s part of being the last of five kids. So I found that, you know, being the squeaky wheel in my house, I had two older brothers and two older sisters. And you know, of course, being the youngest, I thought I was always getting ripped off, right? They got they got all the new clothes, I got all the hand me downs, right. Like that was that was sort of the way that I saw the world. And, and it was, I felt like until unless I actually spoke up and said that this is what I want to do, or, or that I actually went out and tried to go accomplish something, then I wouldn’t be able to do it. And, you know, I look back on my life. And I found that every single time I actually it wasn’t every time that I voiced that this is what I really want to do. But especially with my parents, if this was something that I really wanted to figure out how to do it. I was able to figure it out. And sometimes I would ask for somebody’s help along the way, but I would definitely if I focused on it enough and really thought about how to go out Do it and ask. And also, I just I think that the idea of curiosity to that being able to kind of be yourself and be authentic and tell people how you’re thinking about things instead of actually trying to be something that you’re not, and showing up saying, like, I’m nervous about this, or also thinking about, what is this company going to do for me versus me sort of saying, here’s how I think I can be helpful. I’m really curious, I don’t know anything about your business. I’ve never worked before. And inside of an office, I mean, all these things. I mean, it’s funny to things want to, I became friendly with Marshall, Loeb son, Michael Loeb, he actually worked at Sports Illustrated. And he was running the Ad Sales Team at the time and became actually started a magazine while I was at that time called Entertainment Weekly. And anyway, it was, it was interesting. I knew, you know, when I published the book that I hadn’t talked to Michael in a while, but I sent him a copy of the book. And I said, there’s a chapter in here about your dad who had recently passed, and I said, you know, you might get a kick out of it. And Michael knew the story. But also, you know, I just thought it’d be fun to have it in writing. And he wrote me a note back, and he said, I just, I just want you to know that my dad wrote that note, like, nobody else wrote that note, my dad 100% wrote that note, and the reason he, and he probably would have seen you, as well, you know, if you would have, like, figured out a way to how to get to his office or wrote him back or something, because he really believed that by helping the next generation. And if people would actually show that tenacity, those are the people that you actually want to give the opportunity to. So I think, you know, there’s so definitely with him, but the other thing that I was gonna say too, is I remember, when I was in Arizona, when I was in high school, I worked for Senator John McCain. I mean, he was the cool job to have in Arizona. I mean, he was a POW. I mean, it was incredible. And I remember, he had an internship job available. And I applied for it and got a got a few interviews. And then he was doing the final interview. And he said, so why do you want to work for me? And I said, Okay, so my parents are Republicans, and I want to know whether or not I’m a Republican. I mean, can you imagine like a high school kids saying this to Senator John McCain, right? And he looked at me and he started laughing. He said, That is the most honest answer I’ve ever heard. And so I worked on and off for him for basically seven years. And in the running joke, he would tell people walking into the office, I’m still trying to convince Kara to be a Republican. And, you know, the running joke for him was, you know, the fact that he felt the nobody would say that, right. But again, like you stand out just by saying, but just by being a real person, to people, and it was truly it. I wasn’t gonna sit here and tell them that I had all this experience. And then I knew this is who I was, if I didn’t really feel that way.

Andrew Moses 13:27
I think people like Miss that so often, right? They miss that authenticity and the genuineness that that people bring is really valuable. And he saw that new and I’m sure others have have seen that new.

Kara Goldin 13:40
Hey, Kara, here. We are thrilled you’re listening with us. And I hope you’re enjoying this episode. I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing so many amazing guests over the past few years, and there are so many more to come. I cannot wait. And my focus is on entrepreneurs and CEOs, real innovators and leaders who are making a difference. That’s what I’m looking forward to bringing you. One of the reasons I enjoy interviewing many of my guests is that I get to learn. We all need to hear stories that teach us to be better, inspire us and help us get through those challenging moments. I can’t remember the last time I had a guess that didn’t leave me feeling like a major hurdle had been overcome. We just don’t hear these stories enough. And when we do, we learn to be smarter and stronger. Don’t you agree? Episodes are concise but packed with amazing info that you will surely be inspired by. Do me a favor and send me a DM and tell me what you think about each interview that you get a chance to be inspired by. And if you are so inclined, please leave one of those five star reviews for the Kara Goldin show on one of your favorite podcast platforms as well. Reviews real like really help. Now let’s get back to this episode.

Andrew Moses 15:04
people I think are so often afraid to, like admit weakness, or be vulnerable or, and it’s this huge I’ve seen it throughout my career I mean, and I’ve built a great network and people will always ask me how did you meet that person? Or how did you get to talk to that person? Or how did you get to interview that Olympian or that, you know, TV star or this or that? And most times, my answer to people is I just asked, you know, I asked, and I said, this is why I want to have a conversation with you, or this is what I’m thinking, I’ve always, you know, thanks to a mentor who really kind of, you know, helped frame things. For me early in my career, I’ve always thought about things through the lens of, like, if you have a balance sheet you want, like, you want to be a net giver, like you alluded to it a few minutes ago, you want to give more than you receive. And if you if you enter every interaction, thinking, What can I give, authentically, and it’s and it’s genuine, then you’re gonna get enough in return to fill your bucket, as well. But I think, you know, your story is just so inspiring to me. And I know to others, because you just asked you just, you know, went for it. And I think, you know, another thing that I’ve heard you talk about is this concept of just showing up or kind of stepping out and doing something a little different people hide behind emails these days, they just send emails to everybody you’ve talked about, even today in the email and text here about the power of making a phone call, or maybe the power of a handwritten note, what has driven some of that for you?

Kara Goldin 16:35
Well, I think that it is a way to stand out, right. And so often, I think that I’ve just found, I mean, the first time, it’s pretty scary, right? Just to reach out and call somebody or, you know, send somebody a note, but maybe I’ve kind of gamified it to some extent, like I’m always curious what the response will be. I mean, sometimes people won’t respond, right. But it’s sort of thinking about, like, what’s the worst that can happen? I mean, so often, there is some kind of response or you’re like, wow, I remember when I was publishing my book, and people said, hey, you need to get some people to read your book, and, you know, give a quote for what they think. And, you know, and I really started to think about kind of my universe of people that I had met over the years, and some of them I hadn’t even talked to in a few years, but I, I knew that I, I would really feel good if I felt like they really liked the book. I mean, people like Jamie Dimon from JP Morgan, people like Adam Grant, people like Sheryl Sandberg, John Legend. I mean, all the really a wide variety, which is sort of my life, right, and people that I’ve met along the way. And, I mean, it was I was amazed that 100% of the people that I asked to actually read the book and actually give me a quote, said, Sure. And I was like, wow, I mean, it was it was amazing. And it wasn’t like a huge sell. I mean, I think more than anything, people appreciated the fact that I said, Yeah, you have a couple of months to do it. You don’t have, you know, two days, right, they probably couldn’t have dropped everything to go and do it. But I think that they’re you’re right, like, people don’t ask enough. I think, you know, some people get it, probably Adam Grant gets asked a lot to do it. But he probably also gets asked a lot to do it in three days, and he’s not going to do it. Or if it’s not a topic that he really knows about. I think that that’s, you know, a piece of it as well.

Andrew Moses 18:42
I think it says a lot care about you and your story and how you’ve motivated and inspired so many people too. I want to get into that a little bit. So when you call yourself an accidental entrepreneur, when’s the big aha moment that you’re going to create? Hint?

Kara Goldin 18:58
Well, I started my career in media and actually left time and went to CNN and then moved to the Bay Area where I live now. And that’s when I worked. My first job in tech, I worked for a little spin out of apple that was a Steve Jobs idea that was, you know, probably the the earliest stage startup prior to starting my own company that I think anyone could go and work for. We went through an acquisition by a company called America Online. And I think having worked for companies worked for entrepreneurial ventures between CNN and to market and then America Online. I that gave me the confidence to kind of go and do my own thing. I didn’t take time off to actually go start a company. become an entrepreneur, though. I think it was during this time that I was, you know, being a mom, I decided to take a I actually said I was going to take a couple of months off but I ended up taking a few years off and really enjoyed just like that time with my young kids, but also found that I was interested in their health and helping them to get healthy and sort of, I’d never read ingredients in food and drinks, I just assumed that if something said diet or low fat, it was like better for you. I never had looked at the amount of sugar in products. And that was something I was doing, you know, with my young kids. But when I realized that I kind of had them figured out and they were on the right path. That’s when I looked at myself. And I thought, kind of a hypocrite, like, I’m sitting here drinking all these diet sweeteners. And I don’t know, like, I don’t even know if it’s very good for me, I wouldn’t give it to my kids. So why am I actually putting in my own body. And that’s when I decided to just stop and start drinking water. I knew water was better for me, but I just didn’t like the taste of water, I thought it was really boring. So in order to get over that hump, I started slicing a fruit and throwing it in the water. And that’s when I thought, Wow, I feel healthier, I not only lost over 24 pounds in two and a half weeks, and my skin cleared up, I never really thought I was unhealthy. I just had assumed that this was the way, you know, as I aged, like, this is how I was supposed to be. And I just I really started to realize that these diet sweeteners were just really causing havoc on my system. And I thought, I bet there’s a lot of other people who don’t know, this either. I mean, obviously, these industries, the diet industry, the diet industry is huge. And I thought, I wonder if I could get a product on the shelf at a local store. And maybe that would help people to understand that they could have water that tasted better with no sweeteners in it. I never thought about it as I’m gonna go start my own company, or I’m gonna take on big soda, or big sugar or diet sweeteners, or whatever. And instead, I just focused on the steps, like, launch a product at Whole Foods, and I was laser focused, to be able to, like, go out and try and get that done. And, you know, I think like, that’s the thing that I share with entrepreneurs, about my journey is that if you focus on the end game are, you know, sort of the overall goal, it’s not that you don’t know what the goal is, but you got to focus on the steps. Because if you don’t focus on the steps in order to get to the end, you often won’t get past the beginning because you just think that it’s so hard and daunting, right? And you’ve got to just go out and just figure out how do I get the steps accomplished first. And so that’s the story of Hant and got it on the shelf at Whole Foods and San Francisco and a few other specialty stores in the Bay Area. And then you know, today 17 years later, it’s you know, quarter of a billion dollars in sales. It’s the largest privately held non alcoholic beverage in the country that doesn’t have a relationship with Coke, Pepsi or Dr. Pepper Snapple like I said, started a product and company and entirely new category which is still the leader in the category of unsweetened flavored waters. So it can be done. You can come from different industry to go start something you just have to work hard and and work smart and be able to see around corners and really be able to ask a lot of questions here a lot of knows all of those pieces along the way. But you know, being an entrepreneur, I think it’s been over glamorized. I think it’s, you know, can be lonely to be an entrepreneur, it can be it’s a lot of hard work, ways, your ways to make money as I share with college students. So it’s

definitely something that you should know what you’re getting into prior to jumping in.

Andrew Moses 24:09
You mentioned I’m glad that it’s over glamorized Karen, one of the things that I’m drawn to is kind of the scrappy, unglamorous things that are the ingredients to success. And I’m curious, as you think back to maybe those early days, what were some of the kind of scrappy, unglamorous things that you needed to do to keep the trains moving forward?

Kara Goldin 24:32
You know, it’s interesting, it wasn’t that long ago, actually. But thinking back on March of 2020, when the pandemic was hitting, I mean, we were expecting a giant year for 2020. We were going into Walmart and Sam’s Club and all the and had really prepared to sort of roll into all of that distribution and my chief operating officer Sir, who happens to also be my husband was automating plants. And you know, we were really prepared, then the pandemic hits. And we find out that, you know, as a essential product in an FDA regulated category, and we’re FDA regulated, unlike every bottle water company, bottled water is regulated at the state, we’re regulated at the FDA level, because we have proof in our product. So, as we were realizing that the world was going on hold, and people were told to not work in offices, our team was actually as an essential product being told, No, you have to go out there and work. And so being able to manage during a time, you know, like the pandemic, under a scenario and situation that we had to abide by, right, or we could actually lose our business license if we weren’t doing that. But also, I think, looking back on it, you know, we didn’t lay off anybody in the company, we we sort of, you know, managed remotely, we knew how to do that, like people have said had, did you know how to do that? How did you be able to keep the train moving on the tracks and moving forward? I think that the more challenging times you have, I mean, for us, 2008 2009, like many people during the financial crisis was super challenging. And you just, it’s the same kind of theory of figuring out how do you move forward? How can you see around the corner, that’s what great entrepreneurs can do, that is maybe different from an operator that has not had that kind of scrappiness is that they can see around corners. They don’t think about it as a barrier. Instead, they think, you know, how can I solve this issue? Right? They’re constantly thinking about how do I get over the fence? How do I knock the fence down? And that is the most important thing, I think that any leader can think about in managing their businesses, to think scrappy, and be able to, you know, get around those corners.

Andrew Moses 27:15
You’ve said a few times see around the corners, is that something that you think is just innate? Or something that you’ve been able to teach yourself to get better at over time?

Kara Goldin 27:24
I think it’s a, it’s something that not a lot. I’m fascinated by how I think really, really great entrepreneurs do that and do it really well. So call them paranoid, right. And I think entrepreneurs are, they’re often optimists, but they’re actually the ability to sort of, I think the ability to scale, a company in any industry has a little bit of both, you have the optimism of, of you know, you’ve got a vision that you want to get out there. But you start to think about, okay, well, if they go right, you know, should I go right? Or maybe I should go left? Maybe I should go right for a while and see how it goes and then go left? And what if I’m going left, and then it doesn’t work out? Or I need to go straight, like being able to see what are the different options. And I think that one of the things I share in my story, too, is that total failure is not an option to successful entrepreneurs, right, they get back up, they figure out, how do I continue to move forward? Because more than anything, staying complacent is death. Right? To you know, the best entrepreneurs, I mean, you have to figure out instead, what else can you do? And I think like, that is the thing. Again, no matter what industry and and, you know, you can have a great idea for a company. But in order to scale, the key component that I’m always really fascinated by is you gotta have a little bit of paranoia in you that you are sitting around those corners and thinking, Okay, what if this happens?

Andrew Moses 29:06
Carrot, I love the thinking paranoid I, I always say, you know, like, like only the Paranoid Survive, right? I mean, you have to have like a healthy degree of paranoia to kind of keep you moving forward, keep you, you know, hungry, keep you focused on the end goal. I’m curious, though, as you think about that perpetual paranoia. Right. And is there something you know, as you look back on the early days of Han, is there something that you worried about too much that as you reflect, you’re like, I was way too worried that I didn’t have this or I didn’t have that or I didn’t know that? What was talking about that for a second?

Kara Goldin 29:44
I think it’s the experience, right? Because it’s, you hear that over and over again, if you don’t have the experience, right, either, you know, work experience or industry experience or maybe you know, you didn’t go to A certain type of school you didn’t you don’t sort of fit the model that somebody has in their own mind, then you start to, I mean, you think of yourself as you get daunted, right you think of yourself, as you know, I’m never going to be able to get out of the gate. And I think that every successful business person entrepreneur has that, that feeling that they might not be able to move forward. But if you focus on it so much, then I think it’s really hard for you to ever move forward, right? You have to believe first, that you can actually accomplish something, I’ve said this to so many entrepreneurs, I hear it in their voice, like, well, I can’t do this, because I don’t have the experience. I’m, you know, a woman and I can’t raise money or, and I’ve constantly said, like, look, you’ve got to believe first, if you don’t believe, then no one else is going to believe you. So you got to believe in your product. gotta believe in your team, you got to believe in yourself. And that is the key key thing that I think is missing from people that, you know, I don’t know, how you get there. If you have to go to a therapist and believe or, you know, actually work on a product and work with the team that you believe in. But all of those things you have to have. And for me, I think it was the experience part that I kept thinking, I just didn’t have it so I wouldn’t be able to be successful. And what a waste of time. I mean, I I ended up I actually, you know, it’s interesting, I ended up learning this lesson, because we hired people with experience thinking that they would make up for the experience that I didn’t have. And what was fascinating was that, you know, those were some of my worst decisions, worst hires, and not necessarily because of them, but sort of because of their experience, because what I realized what I viewed as experience, and maybe what other people like the reason why I was going to fail, what they viewed as experience was people who had a resume with a large brand, like the perfect experience in many people’s mind was working at Coca Cola, or Pepsi or whatever, for a number of years. There aren’t any people that have worked at Coke or Pepsi that are still alive and working Coke and Pepsi, at least that had scaled the company from zero to 5 million, right? Like that’s a whole different skill set in a person, and then a five to 25. Right, like, still probably nobody still alive that had that kind of experience. And that’s what you really need in those early days. Like you don’t really need the experience. You need people who have scaled, who believes in the product and who have the ability to roll up their sleeves and do a little bit of everything. Right. And that’s the problem with experience experience doesn’t know how to do that.

Andrew Moses 33:15
Care. I think that’s such a great point in such a great spot for us to wrap up. I do have to say your book undaunted, and I’m going to flash it up here for everybody watching. Yeah, is one of my favorite favorite reads. I think your story is absolutely fantastic. I could talk to you for hours, and pick your brain on all these types of things. But thank you for spending some time with me Kara.

Kara Goldin 33:41
Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening