Joe Demin: Co-founder & Chief Relaxation Officer of Yellow Leaf

Episode 275

Joe Demin and his Co-founder (and wife) Rachel Connor, Co-Founders of Yellow Leaf Hammocks went from selling hammocks out of a van to getting a $1 million investment on Shark Tank. This is a fantastic story of founders with an idea who bootstrapped their social enterprise for years, then innovated and created sustainable impact in communities that they source from. Years of hard work and dedication led to a $1 million investment from the founder of KIND Snacks, Daniel Lubetzky. We hear more about the journey including their commitment to creating high-wage jobs for women in rural Thailand who weave each hammock by hand. PLUS they create a terrific product that you will want to try and buy! Listen and be inspired. This show will leave you interested in learning more. On this episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin. And we are here on the Kara Goldin show. And I’m super, super thrilled to have our next guest. We have Joe Demin, who is the co founder and chief relaxation Officer of yellow leaf. And their first product is the hammock and we’ll get into sort of the rest of their company. But you may have seen him and his co founder and wife on Shark Tank. And it was an incredible episode. And my friend Daniel Libecki, was also on Shark Tank, not actually pitching but actually looking at different companies, including yellow leaf and invested put a million dollar investment into yellow leaf. And Daniel, for those of you who do not know is the founder and CEO of kind snacks. So Joe’s co founder and wife, Rachel Connors started yellow leaf, which is a lifestyle brand focused on relaxation and driven by positive impact. And they initially started making hammocks, but they have a few other products that look really, really, really cool. So these products, empower people to practice daily relaxation and to live their best, most stress free lives. I can speak from personal experience that these hammocks are amazing and impeccably hand woven. And super, super soft, too. And I fell asleep yesterday afternoon on one. So thank you so much, Joe for, for sharing that with me. And if this isn’t enough, the company also is committed to creating high wage jobs for women in rural Thailand who weave many of these hammocks by hand. And the team’s goal is to empower artisans to lift their families from poverty to the middle class. We’re going to hear a bit more about that, but thrilled to get to speak with you today, Joe so welcome.

Joe Demin 2:53
Yeah, thank you, Tara. Wow, that is probably the best intro I’ve ever had. To talk to you big fan of Hanson everything you’ve built things. This is gonna be a fun conversation.

Kara Goldin 3:04
Thank you so much. Well, so let’s start at the beginning. So I’d love to hear more about Joe as a kid. Did you? Did you know that you were going to be an entrepreneur? Were you always perceived as you know, the creative one that went and created it? Yes. Yeah.

Joe Demin 3:24
Yes, in short, yeah, absolutely. I always knew I was going to do something on my own or with like, found fine, do something great with my life. And I guess part of that comes back to my childhood. So I came to the US as a refugee from the Soviet Union. And grew up I guess, you know, having literally my my family came with, I think like $100 in two suitcases, that kind of stereotypical story. But it shaped everything about me and growing up without a lot of economic means and watching my family go through various challenges and always having to sort of provide for myself has just put that entrepreneurial bug in me and so, you know, I didn’t expect to run a hammock brand or relaxation pen necessarily. And I was on a totally different track more commercial real estate development building communities. And but here I am. So a lot of that definitely attributed to just having an abuse I guess unique circumstances and I’m really grateful for that as well.

Kara Goldin 4:31
What was kind of your, your Inkling in what you would ultimately be doing when you had to work?

Joe Demin 4:38
I was definitely more on the finance track initially. Just kind of looking at how can I make money you know, coming out of college and being very financially driven, you know, wanting to have a foundation not having had that growing up. So that was very much a big driver for me. And as I got into I got into a game passionate about real estate velvet in building communities and I went to school in Chicago where I had access to some great firms and experiences there. And early on in that experience, I got to see how green building and all these sustainable aspects of the real estate world actually would impact the bottom line. And that was kind of my first, I guess, intro or introduction to fusing profitable business with impact. And, you know, amazingly led me to where I am now. And I guess I would attribute that by having come in contact with other entrepreneurs, other product based entrepreneurs, maybe a couple years before, Rachel and I started at Yellowlees, where we got exposed to some founders who are sharing their stories, you know, in a similar way, as I’m doing now, and it really impacted me hearing that they were able to create product based businesses that also did things in a way that was, you know, changing an industry, changing your community, and all of that, you know, kind of led to the serendipitous moment where I actually came across the opportunity to start all over.

Kara Goldin 6:01
It’s so interesting, listening to your talk BSA, I feel like, you know, your parents certainly inspired you, and being able to, you know, create a better life for you. But then also just meeting people along the way who were doing things, you know, maybe things that you really hadn’t thought of, that you really hadn’t seen, and you thought it was, you know, great that they were able to create something and sell something along the way that was, you know, really driven by something that they created. But I think that the key thing that I feel like I’m hearing from you, too, is that it’s your journey, right along the way. And there’s pieces along the way that really make up what you ultimately end up doing. Right. And so, anyway, really, really fascinating. So, I’ve read the origins of yellow leaf, and it’s a pretty crazy story involving elephants, and a secret map and a 600 mile cab ride. Can you share a little bit more about that?

Joe Demin 7:11
I guess, I mean, it adventurous traveler, but uh, we were I was backpacking with some friends in Thailand, actually visiting one of my childhood friends who had been living there. And midway through our vacation, sitting on on the beach in the morning, having breakfast, and took out a local travel book that had a story about all the places to visit on the island, and that there was a map that was being distributed at a little hammock cut on the other end of the island. And naturally, I loved hammocks already, so I was intrigued. And I wanted to go explore, hopped on a motorbike zipping past elephants and kind of being in this really beautiful exotic place coming across this little hammock shop and I came in and I was immediately struck by the quality of these panics. Not thinking anything about starting a business or anything like that, but more of a consumer, I had been looking for hammocks, I was familiar with the poor quality and kind of from a product standpoint, and basically started asking some questions about where these were from, you know, thinking that I buy some and heard this amazing story of the Malawi tribe, which is Asia’s last hunter and gatherer tribe. And in Thailand, there’s over a million and a half Hill chalk members. And I was familiar with, you know, challenges in the developing world with extreme poverty and, you know, environmental destruction, things like that. And the story I was told was of the mob Rijn, how they had overcome indentured servitude, and were able to break free from from that by creating a product that they can sell, and just this one little shop, and that allowed them to lobby for their citizenship in civil rights, like already had this transformative impact. And I realized this was much more than a hammock. This was an amazing product that I learned wasn’t necessarily being sold anywhere. And it was craziness, like, transformative, transforming livelihoods. And so it was going above and beyond kind of a traditional charity model, where things are just given out and I was very intrigued by that actually had been, I guess part of the side story to that is I had been planning to go to business school and I was in the middle of preparing for that. So I was had this kind of like case study mindset at the time while traveling. And so I was really intrigued. I decided to ditch my friends and I took a similar amount cab ride to the village to go meet the people who are making these hammocks and hear their story and just see it not really thinking that I’m going to start something but just very intrigued and curious. And when I got there, I learned that they the whole community was eager to sell more hammocks, and they were there was basically in Thailand as a rainy and dry season and half the year. They had no sales because there wasn’t any tourism and they would inch their way, upward Ekans I’m ugly and kind of go back at the second half of the year, and people would be hiking as far away as like the location border to this one village asking to make hammocks because they heard how much money they could earn, and how well they can be treated. And they were being turned away because there weren’t enough hammocks. And so at the time, I just simply thought, I did some rough math. And I was like, if we could sell 2000 hammocks, we could probably provide enough income in this community to permanently break the cycle of poverty. And it was like, a very naive thought like that. Came home super excited to my then girlfriend threw down a bunch of hammocks on the bed and was like, I’m starting a hammock company comm let’s do this. And she was very, she was definitely the first customer and I forced me to really sell her on it. And, but that’s initially how we started. And the inspiration just grew out of this little kind of naive thinking, curiosity and wanting to do something that can make a difference.

Kara Goldin 10:56
I love it. So great. So what does being a mission based entrepreneur mean to you?

Joe Demin 11:03
There’s certain things we just can’t sacrifice, you know, we, the mission was baked into our existence before even I came into the picture, you know, this initiative was started to provide people a path out of poverty, to empower them to change their lives. And I felt like I came in and have the chance to scale that into something that would be sustainable for generations to come. And so I guess that’s a long winded winded answer to that question. But it’s, it’s we’re driven, I guess, by deeper purpose beyond just making money, but we recognize that being financially sustainable is what makes us mission sustainable.

Kara Goldin 11:42
Definitely well, and I think that anyone who’s ever worked, or founded a mission based company has a really tough time. Not doing that in the future, because you feel like you can actually create jobs, you can do something that helps consumers often, all of those things that I think are really, really critical. So I love that about your company, as well. So you and your wife, Rachel, are the co founders, did you always want to work together? Or did this kind of happen by accident?

Joe Demin 12:22
Definitely more by accident. We just kind of naturally came together. We didn’t start y’all leave immediately, when I came back, it was something that we had started testing. And you know, we didn’t quit our jobs right away. And so over the course of the next few months after returning home, we just started working on together, we just found ourselves working together, you know, we bring a really similar skill set. We have an amazing chemistry, and we’re really fortunate that it we were aligned in on on this early on, but we just started moving forward. And ultimately, you know, we had a slow growth trajectory. So we slowly built up and, and found ourselves running and starting the brand together. And it was very organic.

Kara Goldin 13:11
I love it. Very, very cool. How many people in your company now?

Joe Demin 13:15
Oh, well, we are still quite lean, I would say we are. So on the production side in Thailand, we the last year we had 200 full time weavers, we got two to 225 Weaver’s recently, and we’re going to be ending the year with a team of 400 Weaver’s working full time over there, as well as a few people kind of overseeing production, or the original aid workers over there who is overseeing everything on the ground from a operational standpoint, and then here domestically, Rachel and myself, and we have one other operations person and a customer support team, which we call our hammock concierge. And the rest of our kind of core functions have been to this point outsourced to various contractor agency partners. And we’re definitely at this phase now where we desperately need to scale up the team because we are we’ve all grown ourselves.

Kara Goldin 14:12
Yeah, for sure. Interesting. So what’s been wondering your fondest memories, and in growing yellow leaf,

Joe Demin 14:21
I would say going back to Thailand and visiting our team there is always such a positive experience. And it’s a great opportunity to step away from, you know, it’s easy to forget, even in a mission based business, that there’s this impact that you’re creating, you’re off so often into spreadsheets into, you know, budgets and reports and all the things that any other business has to do and then going back and seeing how every single hammock purchase makes a difference in like our weavers they’re being completely ecstatic that people are buying their products and like seat having that connection to the maker is, it’s something that is really hard to explain. And I really encourage everybody, even if you’re not in a mission based business, get in touch with where you’re where your products are coming, there are people on the other end. And it’s really amazing to see just the the whole through line and supply chain and how it’s impacting culture, humans, people. And I think for me to be able to do this, what’s a dream job and be able to return back to the place where it all started is always brings back memories of everything I experienced, which I can still, like, the founding story for me is still so vivid. And so going back quite often is something that keeps me grounded and present in in, you know why we started where we are today. I just love it. Motivation.

Kara Goldin 15:49
I love it. So what do you wish you knew when you started? You and I briefly were chatting about being an entrepreneur is not all glamorous? Definitely, there’s some hard stuff that comes up along the way, especially when you’re getting started. Is there? Is there anything you do differently?

Joe Demin 16:07
I definitely see how a second time founder is so much more wiser now. And if I were to do everything again, it would it would be different. And I’m not saying that, you know, I think I had to learn the things I learned. And the you know, some specifics, I guess would be how are we going to fund the company? At what point are we going to launch a product being a little bit more strategic, rather than just jumping into things, you know, could have helped us I think, defining roles and probably bringing in outside help. You know, that’s something that we should have done earlier, for sure. Because for a while it was Rachel and I working off independently, and there were, I think lots of people in hindsight that would have been willing to come work for less money or, or equity or things like that. And we we hadn’t really taken advantage of that we were just kind of siloed and learned a lot of lessons kind of the hard way and how to work together. And I think building that team sooner is really important. And definitely probably one of the biggest lessons, I think we would have staved off a couple of years in our journey. Had we, you know, reached out to others to join us would have been, you know,

Kara Goldin 17:26
sooner the positive. Interesting. So you appeared on Shark Tank and 2020 and landed a deal with kind founder Daniel Labette. Ski. So how has that changed? Change kind of your your life? Also the partnership with Libecki? And how has it impacted? You know, sort of the growth of the business overall?

Joe Demin 17:52
Yeah, it’s been. It’s, it’s just unbelievable that we ended up on Shark Tank, closing the deal with an investor who has who has been such a great partner to us. I mean, I never imagined things would be as well as they have gone as well as they have just because it’s it’s exceeded our expectations working with Daniel and his his team at equilibria, which is his startup incubation tank and his investment company. And, you know, to be prior to Shark Tank, we had been very bootstrapped. And, you know, there’s bootstrapping has, it’s a double edged sword. On the one hand, you retain equity, you get to do things your way on the other, it’s a lot harder, you don’t have the resources. And you’re kind of you can find yourself in this sort of poverty mindset where you never have enough and you’re constantly kind of struggling in a way versus that prosperity mindset where you have a safety and insecurity. And so getting our first significant investment of a million dollars, you know, by some standards for consumer business, that’s not a ton for us, not having had anything before had been really impactful. And it allowed us to take more and greater risks that have since paid off, versus kind of taking this more risk averse approach before. And I think we also got really fortunate that Daniel is a true impact investor, and he has built businesses with social impact first. And also he raised I think he raised something like $5 million to grow kind and, you know, become a $5 billion company. So, you know, he had lied to us that spoke really closely to what we were about, you know, not raising a lot of money and building a really big, impactful business that would be at a similar scale, potentially. And so, you know, just to give you an idea of Yellowlees before and after Shark Tank as well. We had been more of a kind of a 5050 wholesale and direct to consumer business for Shark Tank and the investment from Shark Tank allowed us to make a really big pivot towards direct to consumer. And we grew well over 1,000%, since that’s in just the first year, since appearing and really pivoting our business in a way that Daniel’s team helped guide and, you know, he’s opened up everybody at equilibria to us as a resource. And so it’s been, it’s been, like rocket fuel, honestly, that’s amazing. We had product market fit, I would say, heading into Shark Tank, and then getting that many eyeballs, and then getting the support of an amazing investor and his team. Everything kind of transpired to allow us to lift off, you know, even more quicker after. So we’ve been just trying to keep up since

Kara Goldin 20:51
Yeah, I mean, I feel like that is such a critical thing that you just said that many entrepreneurs, especially early entrepreneurs, and first time entrepreneurs, kind of don’t know what they’re missing, because I think getting somebody who has been a founder, who has been through the road, their own might be a little bit different, they might be in a totally different category. But being able to open doors being so many investors that, you know, they may look like they’re gonna have, you know, lots of experience. And but they’re, you know, if you can’t open doors for you, if you can’t sort of like, help you figure out like hard things in the puzzle, I think that it’s just a very different situation than what you’re going through. So Daniel’s amazing, and I know, he’s done that with some other brands that we’ve had on the podcast as well. So I think that that that’s, you know, shout big shout out for him. But also sort of, you know, if you are an angel investor, I mean, that is something that, I really think, if you can, you should write, and I think often founders don’t know what you don’t know, either. And I think just sharing your story and sort of where the, you know, challenging points are, I think Daniel probably was able to piece those things together and say, Hey, how about a connection to so and so? Or have you thought about doing things this way, and that is so valuable, so valuable?

Joe Demin 22:33
Absolutely, his authenticity is, is 100%. I mean, I can, I can gush over Daniel in our relationship with Him for our CIO. And it’s truly been amazing. Like we having a mentor, like, that has been also fantastic. And one thing that I learned prior to Shark Tank, and having talked to other founders and kind of thought about fundraising, for for years, and so, you know, to some extent, we did go through a small fundraising attempt, I guess, prior to this. And I learned that, you know, I think I want to remind other founders, especially in that, we’re also giving something of value to the investor, the investment firm, whoever is investing in, you know, we have power as well. And in a lot of ways, it’s, it’s more powerful, you know, being in our shoes, and it’s, it’s not like, you know, someone’s investing in you, it should be a very equal partnership for support. And I just would always remind myself that what we’re doing, you know, this is our ship, you know, we’re bringing on resources, we’re making a decision to bring somebody on totally, because we need funding or anything like that, really approaching it from the standpoint of less about, hey, we need money, we need money to grow, we need money to do this, but more of this as an opportunity. Like we really want this person, you know, we, you know, we did diligence as well. And it was important for everybody, and it created a stronger partnership now.

Kara Goldin 24:07
Well, and I think it’s, you know, for Daniel, I’ll speak for him. I mean, I’m sure, investing in a category that he’s never been in. He was curious, right. And so he is learning, but he’s also tapping into the fact that you’re doing things and parts of the world that maybe he hasn’t touched. And so he really wants to not only learn but create impact. And I think that more and more investors are really looking to be able to understand things, but also create some kind of impact. So I 100% agree with what you’re saying. So. So I always ask guests about one of their challenging moments in building the company where, you know, you faced a challenge. You just thought, Okay, we’re done. Maybe it’s supply chain, maybe it’s production, maybe it’s fundraising and it, maybe it’s a recall, you know, all of these things. I’ve heard it over and over and over again. I’d love to hear that story from you. Yeah,

Joe Demin 25:10
I mean, obviously, there are many challenges, constant challenges, and that’s what makes it fun. But the, for us, you know, so the financial side of starting was a challenge early on, because we decided to you know, we built up a vertically integrated artists and supply chain from the ground up and, versus placing purchase orders with a manufacturer or factory and that put a great Strasse in terms of having money constantly to make sure we I mean, we were bringing people on and we once you bring somebody on for us, it wasn’t an it’s not an option to then lay anyone off. Because there are sales, it was really critical for us to make sure we were capitalized to do that. But we did not raise any money to start we, you know, started literally with I brought home 10 hammocks, we sold those hammocks at a local market, we bought 20 More than we bought 50. And for the first year, we sold like every hammock, almost face to face. But it was still never enough. And we couldn’t really start the company and quit our jobs. And just getting off the ground was a challenge. We won a business contest, kind of entered into every contest, we can get to give us a little bit of a boost. And we finally quit our jobs. And what we learned early on was that we needed more money. And we couldn’t raise more money, because who’s gonna invest in a hammock company at the time, we thought, and we continue to grow really slowly over that year, ultimately having about 15 Weaver’s full time. And when we started looking at maybe raising our first equity round, we also looked at what are some alternatives and started to get really creative. And instead of we were talking to an investor, who was prepared to maybe make $100,000, investment angel investor, and we decided to actually change that to a revenue based repayment, which is not something that like, we basically just started thinking outside the box, we realized, instead of raising money, you know, as a product based business, we have product, we can sell that product, if we can sell it fast enough, we can continue reinvesting and taking this revenue based repayment approach allowed us to get out of that where we could invest in our weavers and for the first time, know that we had constant inventory coming in, not kind of go through this back and forth. And we, we took that model with to a few different investors. And you know, once we had track record with one, we built up a little bit of credit history and could go to somebody else and say, Look, lend us $100,000, and you know, a percent of revenue, daily sales will go towards repayment, and here’s our history, and it was kind of an easy ROI for the investor. And I was just, you know, how did you

Kara Goldin 28:05
think of that? I mean, I haven’t seen a lot of it.

Joe Demin 28:09
Yeah, I mean, I just didn’t want to give away control. Knowing that, I guess we’re really protective of not having any mission creep, or bringing somebody on that could kind of try to steer us in a different direction. And really wanting to retain control until we got to a certain point where we can think more clearly be more educated about what kind of partners to bring on. And so I knew that we had product, and I knew that we had good margins and had built a good foundation. And, you know, it just occurred to me, and I guess, if you don’t ask, you won’t know. And, and, you know, it’s not like, it was the first person that we came to, you know, we definitely have to knock on doors and build some relationships through going to conferences, and especially in the social impact community is kind of where we started and in the impact investing world, seeking kind of support there. And that’s, you know, but it just took some creativity and showing that we had the, the demand to be able to sell to be able to repay, and you know, and we also started with less money than we needed on purpose. We wanted to kind of repay early we wanted to show, you know, build that positive history and then be able to come back for more. And actually, one thing that really changed for us probably the biggest impact in terms of kind of getting out of this cycle of having money tied up in inventory and then having a you know, not going through these cycles was our partnership with Kiva, which is an international nonprofit that works to I bring capital into communities into underserved communities and provide Microfinance in all over the all over the globe, oftentimes in really remote areas, and they approached us about becoming a, a an experimental partner at the time at the time, they focused mainly on supporting large microfinance institutions who had a network of people who did not have access to capital, and they were provided micro loans, and Kiva would do the underwriting. And then you could crowd fund that loan on Kivas. website. And they realized at the time that they were growing number of product based businesses that were focused on the artisan sector, and that those companies like yellow leaf also had access to people who did not have access to capital. And so for us that allowed, it’s a kind of a very, I guess, innovative financing vehicle that spun out of, you know, our initial revenue based debt approach. And that it we were able to crowdfund loans, for our weavers that would secure a given period of income for that, that’s amazing, that will give us money to be able to essentially have inventory for a set period of time. So we no longer have to worry is there are we using that product to sell. And our weavers didn’t need to worry whether or not they were going to have an income over 12, the coming year or however much time they wanted. And it gave them the freedom to do all sorts of things. And one of those things is actually breaking away from slash and burn agriculture no longer working in that, in that, you know, space. And and yeah, it was it was an incredible approach that we kind of

Kara Goldin 31:47
just stumbled into it sounds like, Yeah, it’s amazing. Well, I actually you, you remind a friend of mine is actually running Kiva now. For us. Yeah. So I should get him on the show to talk a little bit more about what they’re doing and and sort of how the company has changed. So that’s amazing. So last question, what kind of entrepreneur? Do you want to be known as known for like, what, what is your legacy? I mean, what’s your wish? Like? What would you like people to remember you for in terms of, you know, what you have done?

Joe Demin 32:26
I it’s not even I hate to make it even about me, I really just want to show that there’s a different approach to capitalism. I think, you know, I’m not the first to take on this approach. But I think if we can build a brand that is globally recognized, focused on superior design, and changing lives, or the environment, or both, I think that has the potential to really redefine our, you know, humans on this earth, and I really just want to build a business that does that. Love that? No, that’s something that is more prevalent in the world. Yeah,

Kara Goldin 33:05
no, I absolutely love that. So Well, thank you so much. And where do people find the yellow leaf hammocks? Where’s the best place?

Joe Demin 33:15
Our website absolutely is the best place. yellow leaf Also, check us out on Instagram at yellow leaf hammocks. And, you know, give us a shout out. And we’re always just thrilled to bring more people into our community and hopefully get a chance to try one of our ridiculously comfy hammocks.

Kara Goldin 33:35
Yeah, they are so so nice these days. Yeah, super, super great. So well, it was a pleasure to talk to you, Joe. And I really enjoyed the conversation and hearing a lot more about your company and your journey for sure. And the 600 mile cab ride still can’t believe that is, that’s that’s a wild story that you’ll never forget. So you’re such an incredible entrepreneur. And I really hope everything goes great for you guys. And thank you again for just just coming on and sharing the journey. And thank you everybody for listening. We hope you loved this episode, please give it five stars. And definitely download the Kara Goldin show and subscribe so that you’re sure not to miss any of these incredible stories from founders and CEOs and authors as well talking about lots of really, really interesting cool stuff. But just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin and if you haven’t already picked up a copy of my book. It’s also on Audible. It’s called undaunted, overcoming doubts and doubters talking about my journey and building. The company that I founded in lead called hints. And we’re here every Monday Wednesday, we just added Friday as another day, so that we can continue to bring Amazing stories to people three times a week. So thanks, everybody for listening and have a great rest of the week. Thanks, Joe.

Joe Demin 35:07
Thanks so much, Kara.

Kara Goldin 35:10
Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening