Lily Kanter – Co-Founder of Serena & Lily and Founder & CEO of Boon Supply

Episode 171

Listen as Lily Kanter, Co-Founder of Serena & Lily – and now, Founder and CEO of Boon Supply share valuable lessons she has learned in a career that has spanned a number of industries. How Serena & Lily was built to be a brand that lasts, as well as her newest venture, Boon Supply which is changing the face of e-commerce by doing good and incorporating non-profits into their business model! So many inspiring and purposeful insights on this latest episode. Have a listen now on #TheKaraGoldinShow

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Lily Kanter 0:00
We’re at this really interesting time right now where we have to stop looking at nonprofit and for profit separately,

Kara Goldin 0:09
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to make sure you will get knocked down, but just make sure you don’t get knocked out knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara golden show. So join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders will talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, its Kara golden from the Kara golden show. And I’m so excited to have my next guest here who is a friend of mine and fellow founder and CEO of an incredible few companies. This is Lily Kanter. Welcome, Lily. So excited to have you here. I’m going to tell everybody a little bit about you. But Lily is the current founder and CEO of an incredible company that she’s going to talk to us about called boon supply. But prior to that, she was the co founder of a company that I think you all have slept in and the sheets and and seen so many of the other products that they have called Serena and Lily, and so cool that her name is as on this company, incredible, incredible brand and company that she built for sure. And I’m so excited just to have everybody listen to her journey and how she helped build both of these companies, how she came from different industries, to really shed light on on what was needed and these in these other industries and categories. And she spent 17 years and different industries and technology and accounting, and had worked for huge brands, including to loi and Microsoft and IBM, I mean, amazing experience before she decided to actually hang a shingle and become an entrepreneur. And I’m so so excited to have you here, Lily. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. So let me start with the question that I I love asking people where did it all begin for Lily who is Lily, little Lily? Like Who was she? Was she a? Was she a risk taker where she all the things that everybody thinks of in an entrepreneur?

Lily Kanter 2:57
I definitely would have been an entrepreneur since I was probably about first or second grade. I actually had a roller rink in my basement. I Yeah, I did. And I charge the neighborhood kids to attend. And then I had a snack bar. And then I even chart charge them for the snacks. And so this entrepreneurship journey absolutely started in first or second grade,

Kara Goldin 3:23
a roller rink in your basement. You know, listen, I

Lily Kanter 3:26
grew up in Kansas City, we had these large basements. They were concrete floors. I mean, what else are you doing down there? And you know, it

Kara Goldin 3:37
is so funny. And how many kids would like come over and roller skate? This is?

Lily Kanter 3:42
Gosh, at least, you know, four to six, you know the neighborhood kids. And I absolutely was trying to monetize from the time I was pretty young. So

Kara Goldin 3:54
yes, you’re getting into the finance world. So yes, I knew I knew about making money and how to monetize it. And did you have music and everything? Oh, absolutely.

Lily Kanter 4:05
We have you know, back in the day, a nice record player and you know, it was Saturday Night Fever times. So I am aging myself. But yeah, I definitely went into accounting because I love accounting. It’s just so

Kara Goldin 4:20
cool. That is so funny. So you graduated, you decided not to buy a roller rink and you jumped right into the finance world. Tell me a little bit about that. You know, I

Lily Kanter 4:33
all the way through college, I was working as a bookkeeper for a men’s clothing store. At the time Kate Spade was there we were roommates in college. And we worked for this guy Carter’s men’s clothing and Phoenix. And our other guy was Andy spade from partners in spades. And of course he and Andy and Katie married after college, and I was the bookkeeper and I went to work for to trust right out of right out of school, and did Coopers and Lybrand and Touche. Yeah,

Kara Goldin 5:04
that is hysterical. I did not know this about you actually, this is what’s so fun because, you know, I went, I grew up in Arizona and I I knew Carter’s actually very well it was on 44th and Camelback, it was just around the corner from me and I knew Andy better than I knew actually Kate and knew Dave and and the whole Yeah, you know, crew cuz they all went to ASU and after, I guess, did Kate when when did she transfer to? So she went to she went to k u right. Like early on. I didn’t transfer. Yeah, that’s an elite member. It’s her and Elise. Now. Yeah, it’s, it’s such a crazy, crazy story. See, I’ve known you for a while and I never even knew that story about you. That’s, that is a riot. And so you graduated and you jumped in to? You jumped into finance, then at what point? Did you leave that?

Lily Kanter 6:05
So I was two years in. And honestly, I was bored to tears. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is I love accounting. But I was bored in public accounting. And one of my crazy entrepreneur clients, because you were in Phoenix, you’ll appreciate this story. He owned yellow front, the old company, yellow front. And he built that. Yeah, so he was one of my clients. And he snatched me away to help him raise money to open up Office products, warehouse clubs, they were called the Opie club at the time. And we were like one of the very first office club, Office Max type of, you know, large warehouse Office products, clubs, and I helped Rudy open up 11 of these, and I helped them raise the money. And I was like, I don’t know, 23 years old at the time, or, and, or maybe 24. And we literally rolled out 11 of these warehouse clubs, 20,000 square feet, raised a lot of venture money. And we then sold the company to at the time, it was biz Mart. And then biz Mart rolled up to Office Max. And I helped Rudy with that journey. And then the venture guys took me over to another company that they were funding because I worked, you know, 23 hours a day, you know, being young and and very ambitious. And so they brought me to another one of their companies, which was an IBM systems integrator. And so I helped them build that for five years, which allowed me to jump the aisle. Because when I was in public accounting, all I was doing was accounting. But when I helped Rudy, roll out these Office products, warehouse clubs, I was doing all the technology and all the point of sale, and all the back office and all the systems integration. And so I jumped the aisle into tech at that time, and then I kept putting one foot in front of the other,

Kara Goldin 8:02
what was the biggest difference between being in kind of the accounting world versus the tech world? Um,

Lily Kanter 8:08
you know, I mean, listen, it is having the accounting background and, and actually understanding what the end result needed to be when you were hooking up all these systems really helped, you know, I mean, the accounting really helped understand like, the data and the data architecture and what needed to happen with the data, and how to, you know, the end result being you know, the financial statement, you kind of know how to go out and collect all that data from whatever source. So I think it’s a very logical path to move into kind of systems integration. And that’s kind of the path I ended up on was in the area of systems integration and helping retailers specifically implement systems. And so that’s what led me back. Yeah, so it led me back to Deloitte and Touche, and I went to go manage their retail technology practice in Los Angeles, and, and then I was recruited to Microsoft to run their retail technology vertical for the western US in 1994. They were starting to scale the enterprise with SQL Server and Windows NT and they needed someone that understood retail, retail vertical, so that’s what uh, you know, one train door opened and got off on that platform and another train arrived and got on that train. So So yeah, a lot of money.

Kara Goldin 9:37
And so then you so how did it was Serena and Lily next then?

Lily Kanter 9:43
Well, there’s a few things in between, right. So I, let’s see, I left Microsoft to have my first baby. And I decided to not go back to corporate America. After having my first baby. The last thing I wanted to do is jump on a plane and go do a speech. engagement in Denver. So I just decided that I’m done with corporate America. And I, you know, I took a year off I had a baby. And then I opened a baby and kids store in downtown Mill Valley. And I Mill Valley baby kids and I put my little baby max in a stroller and I stroll them downtown, and I got a cup of coffee, and stuck the baby in a crib and just you know, was doing my own thing. And just, I felt like the world didn’t really have a great baby and kids store so I opened one. And that’s when I met Serena. So you know,

Kara Goldin 10:36
you weren’t there to wish your customer.

Lily Kanter 10:38
Now she Funny enough, I was off having a baby one day at Moran Gen. Baby number two, Zeke is zekiel. And Serena walked in the door to prospect, she had a beautiful decorative painting business and she painted nurseries and kids rooms. And she was also doing custom fabrics for interior designers. So she was honestly just bringing her portfolio over to show me that day, but I was having a baby that day. And so my manager, my store manager said Oh, Lily’s gonna love your work. She’s having a baby today. But I’ll have her call you answering this like, Sure. Okay, whatever. And I, you know, I brought the baby and the next day, I think Zeke was all of 20 hours old. And I was doing show and tell and I, I literally took one look at Serena’s designs and said, Oh my god, they’re gorgeous. I picked up the phone, and I called her and I was like, I love your work. And she’s like, no, hold on a second. Aren’t you the person that just had the baby yesterday? I love like, yeah. Oh, yeah. Crazy as ever. So yes, she and I met a week later. And she came in and she showed me her portfolio of decorative painting. And I said, you know, why don’t you paint that whole wall over there. And I’ll put out your cards. And you know, you can give me a rev share for your decorative painting. And then she showed me another portfolio which was like kids art work. And I said, I love it. I have a G clay art business. I was already selling artwork to 70 retailers across the nation. And I said, I need some girls artwork. Can you do some girls artwork for me? And she’s like, Sure, why not. And then she opened up her third portfolio, which was these beautiful, beautiful patterns and beautiful fabric designs. And I said, you know, the world needs better baby bedding. Do you want to do some baby crib bedding together? And she’s like, Sure, why not. And she literally walked out of the store Two hours later. And she called her husband at the time. And he she says I think something really big just happened.

Kara Goldin 12:47
That’s hysterical. True story. That is so funny. And so how did you guys so that was the big so she was selling her product in your store at the time? And then how did that? No, not really,

Lily Kanter 13:04
she wasn’t we should know because she was doing custom fabric for designers at the time. And so we decided to start Serena and Lily with just a line of crib bedding. And it was about 15 crib sets that we started with. And we’re talking about 2004 and we did about 15 crib designs on and we sent out we produced a beautiful catalog that we sent to about 600 independent baby and kids stores that looked and felt just like Mill Valley baby and kits. And the day that we the day we mailed our catalog. I’m not even making this up the day we’ve mailed our catalog. The company, Wendy bellissimo, which was the only crib bedding company out there. She decided to get out of the business. And so she faxed down and emailed all of her 800 stores across the country and said thank you so much for your amazing business all these years, I now have four little girls and I really need to focus on them. And I’ve sold my brand to babies Rs. And honestly like she was the only crib bedding company out there. And it was and she did that the day we we sent our catalog to these 400 600 stores. So I mean just talk about timing. We honestly like took her entire channel overnight because they had nothing. Yeah. And so we got opening orders from over 100 stores the first two weeks that we sent her catalog and we and we had $1,000 minimum opening water and it was all wholesale. We didn’t have you know a shopping cart on our website. And all of a sudden we’ve got $100,000 in orders and we had zero inventory. You know, this was such a, you know, front end loading I’m like, we just like, printed this beautiful catalog that had no inventory. Not only did we not have any inventory, we didn’t even have a production company, we just had a cut and sew woman, you know, here here in the Bay?

Kara Goldin 15:15
That’s insane. I mean, crazy times. Yeah, looking back on those times, we have many of those at hands as well, where you’re just like, you know, you’re, you’re flying the airplane, as you’re building it, you’re, you know, hoping nobody finds anything out. Like, you’re just like, Oh, my God, right. You know, it’s just I know, there’s those are always the best stories along the way. So was it at that point that you kind of incorporated the company and made it Serena and Lily,

Lily Kanter 15:42
pretty much I mean, I honestly think Serena and I, to this day, don’t even have a partnership agreement that we ever inked. I told her, I would put $50,000 into the company, and we’d be equal partners. And a million dollars later I said, Serena, we got to get some, like, you know, investors or something, you know, and we just did it. Like, we just didn’t really, I don’t know, it was years till we kind of really structured it in a way that was like a real company. But I think it wasn’t until 2007 did we take some friends and family? capital, and and then in 2008, we took some, you know, investment capital from an outside party.

Kara Goldin 16:29
But what was probably the most surprising thing about being an entrepreneur, because I feel like you sort of took a step into being an entrepreneur just by opening a little store in Mill Valley. Right? And you were sort of, you know, running it and doing your thing, but I mean, this was, this was like a bigger step. I mean, you just, you know, you really, really went

Lily Kanter 16:51
Yeah, I mean, listen, we went for it, I mean, scream, and I think both have a personality type, it’s like, Go big or go home. You know, I think we manifested a vision that we were going to be Ralph Lauren, one day, and I don’t think we ever had any, you know, idea of doing something small. It’s just not in our personality types. You know, it was like, okay, we’re going to, we’re going to really go big with this. And it was, you know, neither one of us knew a damn thing about what the hell we were done. But that was what made it like that we would do it. I think, had we known the details of this type of business, we would have never done it.

Kara Goldin 17:35
Yeah, I know. It’s like you asked too many questions. You do too much research on it. And it’s, you instead just need to, you need to go. And I think that’s, that’s clear.

Lily Kanter 17:48
Absolutely. I mean, I’ll tell you, like, if you wrote a business plan on doing luxury crib bedding that was $500, a crib set, you would not stop start that business. The addressable market is so tiny, there’s only 4 million births in the US every year, you know what 1% of those can afford that? I mean, it this is just, you know, this business tops off at, you know, probably $4 million. And you just, and so, but what was interesting about that is it in that eight, it enabled us to build a brand, because we really didn’t have a competitor in the space. So we got Jen Garner’s nursery, and we got Reese Witherspoon. And then we got, you know, a lot of Hollywood stars, nurseries, that enabled us to get a lot of media and become kind of these designers to the stars. So it allowed us to build a brand in a place that didn’t really have a competitor. And one always has to ask when there’s not a competitor, is there no addressable market? And the answer was, yes, there was no addressable market. And what even made it worse was when all the pediatricians started to come out and say, no crib bumpers, so you know, thank God, we jumped the aisle.

Kara Goldin 19:03
Yeah, but that is so interesting. I mean, you’re exactly right. I mean, when you’re the only one in there, though, you know, you start to question is this category, you know, big enough. And in some ways, as I always say to people, like, I mean, in the case of him, we were, we created a category called unsweetened flavored water. And I thought I was, you know, genius, because there was no one else here. But the challenge of that is, is that there’s no one else to compare you to, right. And so and is the category big enough? And, I mean, we had buyers, who were it’s a different category, obviously, but for in our case, I mean, we had, you know, buyer sort of hedging primarily because there was no one else there and they thought maybe consumers don’t want it because there’s no one else here. And so, you know, that was like we had to wait for the consumer to catch up. So a different but there’s some similarities in there as well. And and obviously You branched out totally on, you know, crib bedding. I mean, you’re doing obviously babies rooms, and then entire homes. And I mean, your catalogue is still to this day, just so beautiful. Thank you,

Lily Kanter 20:13
thank you. It took many years to not be the baby brand. It took many years because they’re early adopters of the brand would literally be looking at the catalog, they’d be literally looking at a living room, or a master bedroom. And they’d say, Gosh, I sure wish I was still having a baby. I mean, it’s amazing how strong brand impression is, when someone adopts you, when you’re really early, and you haven’t done, you know, a larger play.

Kara Goldin 20:43
It took years. So how did you how did you branch out? Like, how did you? I mean, talk about, you know, having the courage and the fearlessness? How did you know it was the right time to go and launch these other rooms?

Lily Kanter 20:59
You know, we kind of followed the customer, basically, you know, we first we went from baby bedding, and in 2007. So we introduced our first crib line in 2004. And, and when the baby started to go out of their cribs, in 2007, we started to do kids ramps. And so our customer was asking us, you know, my baby’s out of their crib, I want this, you know, I want this look for their kids room. So then we introduced a whole line of kids rooms, bedding and, and other accessories for the kids room. And then from there in 2009, we started to doing adult because she’s like, I want my baby’s room is nicer than my room I want my room to look like as well, you know, as the kids room. So we started to just go all in, and you know, full tilt. And that’s, you know, when we really started to grow up was 2010. I’d say. So in terms of the master bedroom and the living room that really started to come about in 2010 2011, about 10 years ago. And then you did a beach I remember in the Hamptons, you had a store. I remember when you launch that I was like what the heck. I mean, this is amazing. So yeah, it was absolutely terrific. I mean, who opens their first store in the Hamptons, that I mean, the Hamptons is a seasonal location. And it was wildly successful because it was a coastal brand. And this customer is in fact coming out there all year round, except for maybe February. Although this COVID year was Yeah, crazy town in in coastal community.

Kara Goldin 22:40
Absolutely. Well, it was it was absolutely terrific. So you stayed on as the CEO until you have the dates, right. 2015? Is that when you stepped into the chairman? Or you’re on the board?

Lily Kanter 22:55
Yep, I stepped out of the company at the end of 2015. So the new CEO came in in January 2016. And I, you know, I definitely it was time for a break of running a marathon in a sprint speed for 12 years. pretty exhausting.

Kara Goldin 23:15
Yeah, you did an absolutely amazing job. I mean, it’s just like, you’ve built a brand that, you know, has really stuck, right. And I think it’s it’s one that is still like, I want to open up the catalog, I want to you know, I want to have those sheets on the bed. I want to have the different items in my home. I mean, it’s just it’s absolutely beautiful. So you should be so so proud of what you did.

Lily Kanter 23:45
Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, you know, we worked really hard, and we are proud. And we built it to last. And you know, what goes up? Fast comes down fast. We you know, we were considered the slow grower in the valley. And we, you know, really, I feel like sometimes the tortoise does win the race, because it was built with a lot of soul.

Kara Goldin 24:07
Yeah, no, I absolutely loved it. And are you still a board member, then? No, no,

Lily Kanter 24:13
we’re both out. We’re both out at this point. And, you know, it was time it was time for a new type of leadership. It was time for, you know, for us to kind of move on screen. This got a beautiful line of fabrics and a beautiful line of wallpapers that she’s doing for interior designers. And it was time for me to do something new. And so yeah,

Kara Goldin 24:38
that’s great. And so the new then you decided to launch boon supply. Tell us a little bit about that.

Lily Kanter 24:45
So, you know, I had this dream back in 2008. I was sitting in the Crowne fellowship program with this fabulous woman, Tamsin, who was part of the early early employees and early creative strategy Do people for the red initiative with bondo and Bobby Shriver, you know, they raised $220 million for the Global Fund for AIDS in two years. And so I was like that, you know, commerce and shopping is a very, very powerful engine to fuel nonprofit revenue needs. And, you know, I, I’ve always wanted to create a commerce engine that spun off some piece of capital towards nonprofit, but how great would it be to democratize that and allow the customer to decide where that fun where those funds go. And so after taking a year off from screen and Lilly and leaving there, at the end of 2017, I acquired the assets of an existing school fundraising company that was already in 7000 schools across the US, and they have given back $75 million. And, you know, honestly, the industry has been frozen cookie dough gift wrap and chocolate bars for 100 years. I mean, like, come on, somebody hasn’t disrupted this business with a digital platform and with great conscious product. And so I saw a huge opportunity to disrupt but also, since we relaunched in 2018 has been supply with all eco products, and, you know, waste free lunch and waste free kitchen. We’ve given back $26 million for schools across America. And that’s amazing. Yeah, it’s a powerful, you know, unfortunately, when COVID hit last year, you know, march of 2020, our business flatlined, I mean, schools shot and our business went to honestly zero, I mean, it looks our Shopify, you know, analytics look like the patient died. I mean, it just went flatline. So it was it was tough, it was a tough year, because we were 100% in schools and, and sports teams. And so I have a rock star of a of a chief revenue officer, and she went out to Tory Johnson, on Good Morning America. And we were able to do just under a million dollars in a day with with Tori and really like our inventory, you know, produce some cash flow. And with the help of PPP and and some reductions, we were able to really save the company. And we really built a lot of third party partnerships last year, and so we’re just getting back on our feet. And we it gave us the opportunity to rebuild the platform as a marketplace. So we’re now we’re opening it up to all these partners. And we’re really excited about the future of betting market. And so, yeah,

Kara Goldin 27:49
so basically people are you’ve got items on there, and then there’s a percentage and the sales going back to into schools. That’s right. That’s right. What do you think you learned from COVID? I mean, it like I think that that’s the thing that I always share with people, when you get through challenging times or, you know, failures or whatever. What What is it that you learn that if you if you would have known you would have done differently?

Lily Kanter 28:14
Well, I mean, obviously, this one’s really obvious, but just the channel concentration, right? We had 100% channel concentration in schools and sports teams, Who would have ever thought that schools and sports teams would have closed down, like, Who woulda thunk any of this, whatever goes down. But, you know, there was so much channel concentration in what we were doing. But I mean, listen, there was a gift for us the gift of COVID, which was it allowed us to rip the band aid off, we were still 50% on paper forms, which we’ve been trying to get off of, but, you know, listen, legacy businesses and old fashioned types of businesses like school fundraising, they’re very slow to change. You know, people just don’t change behavior overnight. So it was a huge gift. And it was a huge opportunity to just say, Hey, we’re gonna rip the band aid off. And there’s no paper forms. Nobody’s going door to door. He’s, like, either have to digitize this experience or you’re dead.

Kara Goldin 29:18
Yeah, I think definitely. You’re right. I mean, it just changed things significantly. And I also heard you talk about an interview about your legacy product project of reimagining capitalism. Do you want to share a little bit more about that? Yeah, I

Lily Kanter 29:35
mean, I think we’re at this really interesting time right now, where we have to stop looking at nonprofit and for profit separately, we have to find ways to incorporate impact into the future of capitalism. I think it’s imperative. I think they’re absolutely going to be the next unicorns are the companies that figure out how How to have tremendous impact using a capitalistic model. Yeah, we’re at a existential crisis with the planet right now, we know we’ve got a lot of inequity. And we’ve got to figure out how to use this incredible engine of capitalism to reshape the world’s biggest issues. So I feel very passionate about that. And I’m absolutely, you know, out to prove that you can, in fact, run a very successful capitalistic company, but also be able to share some of that with nonprofits. And we’re really, really focused on carbon neutral right now that that is absolutely our one 100% focus is to build a marketplace of carbon neutral. And so that is, you know, it’s a goal, it’s good to have goals.

Kara Goldin 30:57
Definitely good to have goals. So that’s awesome. That’s, that’s so great to hear. So obviously, you’ve been you’re a serial entrepreneur, and you have, you know, three kids, what, what advice would you give to them and sort of thinking about a career you’ve worked, obviously, in tech and finance and and been an entrepreneur and a couple of different industries as well, what, what have you learned? What words of wisdom would you share with them? Well,

Lily Kanter 31:27
you know, for me, it’s, I’ve always tried to encourage my kids to find their passion, and, and have that passion lead to their purpose of, you know, their life purpose. And, you know, creative, you know, entrepreneurship, to me personally is like creativity of the soul, it’s how I jump out of bed is that creates that spark of creativity. And so I’ve always encouraged my kids, and I really tried to, you know, show them the world and show them other interesting entrepreneurs, and I just feel like they need to find their passion, and leave the world in a better place. And, and when they can marry those two together, you know, they’ve found their purpose. So I just, you know, I’m very passionate about helping them find that journey. And, you know, they’re super young still, but my oldest is very passionate about the refugee crisis. He’s very passionate about food sustainability and, and social justice. And so we’ll see where that leads,

Kara Goldin 32:32
I’d love it. If nothing great came out of the pandemic, I think more and more people are kind of rethinking things, and also rethinking things for their, you know, their kids too, and sort of what do you hope that they’ll do based on, you know, any challenges that they see out there? So, definitely love those words of wisdom. So, one last question. For you. It’s a it’s a really, really tough one. But where can people find out more about Lily and everything that she’s up to? Oh, thank you. Um, well,

Lily Kanter 33:07
I am on I, you know, I am not very active on social media, I’ll be honest with you about that I am, you know, very focused on the, you know, in person, relationships, which I love, and I’m passionate about spending a lot of time with people. But um, you know, as far as the company, boon market comm is is what I’m working on these days. I do post from time to time on LinkedIn. But yeah, I’m not a private person. I

Kara Goldin 33:40
just don’t really engage all that much with social Well, you are just so incredibly smart. And there’s so much that people can learn from us. So I always ask people, you know, where can they learn more and obviously, boon is so that the website addresses for boon is a boon supplier boon markets, both

Lily Kanter 34:03
but right now, boon market, is where we’re really taking the brand. We’re building out this marketplace. I’m good. Yeah. Good for you. Good

Kara Goldin 34:12
for the planet. Good for schools. Yeah, I love it. So great. Well, thank you so much, Lily, and thanks, everybody for listening. And please give Lily’s Episode Five stars and download and, and subscribe to our great podcast. We are every week every Monday and Wednesday. Now we’re having founders and CEOs and just incredible people with lots of great insights. And hopefully, you’ll all be back to listen to more. And thank you again, Lily. I really appreciate it. I also want to remind everybody if you haven’t read my book yet that came out last October, I would, I would encourage you to do so there’s a whole entrepreneurial journey. There. That laid out and warts and all. And so definitely would would love for you to let me know what you think once you get a chance to read it and thanks again everybody have a great rest of the week. before we sign off I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book calm and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara golden and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara golden golden thanks for listening