Guy Kawasaki: Author of Think Remarkable

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I’m here with my friend Guy Kawasaki, who I am so excited to have back on the podcast to talk about his awesome new book. Guy is not a new author, I kind of can’t even believe how many books he’s written. I’ll let him get into that. But this one is called Think remarkable nine paths to transform your life and make a difference. And clearly guy has the magic potion. To be able to do this. He’s a legend, a renowned author, entrepreneur and thought leader in the world of innovation and technology. With a career spanning decades, he left in an incredible mark on the tech industry and beyond. And many brands that he’s been associated with probably most recently Canva. He’s the chief evangelist there. He’s also played a pivotal role in Apple and the Macintosh early days, done some great stuff with Mercedes. Hopefully, he got a nice car out of the whole thing. But But definitely, I’m excited to have guy here as always to have his energy and his wisdom. So welcome, guy.

Guy Kawasaki 1:57
Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for that kind. Exaggerated introduction.

Kara Goldin 2:05
Oh, please, you are you are an unbelievable, remarkable person. Your book is source from over 200 interviews with remarkable people, including people like Jane Goodall and Stacey Abrams, plus your own experiences and companies, as I mentioned, Apple, Canva, Mercedes, Google. But when you think back on your own experiences, and meeting some of these people, how do you define remarkable,

Guy Kawasaki 2:36
I define remarkable, as people or you know, put quality of making a difference to make the world a better place. So my podcast is called remarkable people, not rich people, not famous people, because you can be rich, and you can be famous. And you can also not be remarkable, even though you are rich and famous. So for example, I don’t have any private equity or hedge fund. My managers on my podcasts, they’re rich, some of them are being famous. But I don’t consider them remarkable. And I’ve had, I have had many people with long prison sentences. On my podcast, I have had people who were smuggled across the US border, and who made a remarkable life in the United States. So the test is, how much difference Have you made. Now, I don’t want to give the false impression that you have to be a Steve Jobs or a Jane Goodall to be remarkable. I think you can be remarkable by fixing one person’s life by, you know, leaving a classroom, leading a club, a team, changing the environment, or even a micro environment, and you’ve been on my podcast, you’re a remarkable person, you know that it is all about what you have accomplished. And money is one of the least important things in in my estimation there.

Kara Goldin 4:21
I couldn’t agree more. So and I think the opening of the book starts with the think different advertising campaign, which is one of my favorite campaigns. I remember I’m old enough to remember when that came out. And it stopped me in my tracks. I mean, there’s a few others in history like the Kashagan and, and some others that that I always thought were great, but when that one came out, and if you haven’t seen it, everyone needs to go and google it. But guy you talk about that talking about innovators and remarkable people that change the world, including Albert Einstein. And Gandhi and so why did you start with that?

Guy Kawasaki 5:03
The PR answer is you want to start a book with a forte, that immediately sucks people in and builds credibility, right? So to say that I was in the room with Steve Jobs, when things different was introduced, that the spoken message there is this guy is for real. You know, he’s been there, he’s done that. It, it’s not like he’s Joe Blow from the blow consulting company and executive coaching. And he’s written a book called The blow away, published by blow press. You know, Guy Kawasaki is the real deal. So that’s kind of the, the PR thing. And I wanted to the real story is I wanted to immediately set in place that I was affiliated with Apple, in Apple in its dark days, if you were still a believer, if you still bought Macintosh Plus, you are thinking different because the whole world was thinking windows, you know, let’s buy a Microsoft Windows. That’s the computer that’s the safe bet. No one’s gets fired for buying windows, et cetera, et cetera. So if you bought a Macintosh, you were rebelling, and I want to make the case that that kind of thinking now is needed even more in 2024 because of the divisiveness of the world, because of all you know, climate change, and all these things coming to a head. So you not only have to think different, you need to think remarkable. You need to take it to the next level about making a difference.

Kara Goldin 6:46
Well, it was such a good choice to do that your your books divided into three sections. So growth, grit, and grace. And can you talk about each and kind of why? Why those are critical. First

Guy Kawasaki 6:59
of all, Carol, is that the best use of alliteration you have ever seen in a

Kara Goldin 7:06
book, bam, bam, bam,

Guy Kawasaki 7:08
three, one syllable words beginning with gr. I mean, right there, right there. You know, I hope to set the standard. So basically, I have interviewed about 200 remarkable people, including you, Stacey Abrams. Angela Duckworth, Stephen Wolfram. There’s two MacArthur Fellows right there. Neil deGrasse Tyson and Ronnie Lott I mean, athletes, entrepreneurs, professors. And I just, it’s pattern recognition, that remarkable people have a growth mindset. They don’t believe that, you know, whatever natural talent they had is all they have that they cannot grow, that they cannot gain new skills and new knowledge. And so they believe that there’s opportunity for growth, the grit, is that even if you believe in the growth mindset, you have to be willing to put in the work to make anything happen. So that’s grit. And so so far, we’ve, we’ve we’ve covered the work of Carol Dweck. And now Angela Duckworth. And the final section is kind of my own saying that, I think that, you know, in the first third of your career, you’re probably underpaid. In the middle third of your career, you’re probably overpaid. And in the last third of your career, you’re supposed to pay back. And I think remarkable people pay it back that old just take. And so that’s why the book ends with grace.

Kara Goldin 8:53
Which is so amazing. And frankly, I think, when I think about you, all of these books are that’s your grace. Right? That’s, that’s how I think about it. No, I do because there’s so much wisdom that we can learn. I mean, one of the things that you talk about in the book is connecting the dots, which of course, as Steve Jobs famous, saying, but have you been able to connect the dots over the course of of your journey? I mean, when you look at some of the things that have gone on that made zero sense to you at the time, but I would say it’s probably the reason you have so much wisdom, why you are who you are today. I mean, what would you say to that?

Guy Kawasaki 9:42
I would say that I have been a very fortunate person. And you’re right, that phrase connect the dots comes from Steve’s commencement address at Stanford, I think it was 2005 or so. And the point is that, you know, You may have these plans, and you may think you’ve, you know, you’re threading the needle. But as you look back, you’ll understand that many times what you consider setbacks or tragedies or whatever, actually led to growth. Now it may have taken grit to make it work, but it actually led to growth and you just never know. And, and so if you want me to give you a story about connecting the dots, so a lot of people wonder, you know, how have you become such a close friend with Jane Goodall? And, and I sometimes pinch myself about this, too, because Jane Goodall was the first guest on my podcast, and you as a podcaster, you understand that whenever you ask someone to be on your podcast, the first question they think of is Who else has been there? Because they want to know, you know, am I joining something that has 50 downloads, and I’m wasting my time? And am I in the company of Joe Blow of blow consulting? And so? So, suffice it to say that what I asked people to be on my podcast and I say, you know, we had Jane Goodall. I mean, if you think you’re better than Jane Goodall than saying, Oh, not that many people think they’re better than Jane Goodall. And so let me tell you the story of Jane Goodall, so I’ll work backwards first, so she’s a really work backwards. wrap your mind around this. I have a foreword written by Jane Goodall, the how many people can say that, right. So now how did I get the foreword? I got the Ford because I’m a friend of Jane Goodall. How did you become a friend of Jane Goodall? It’s because I interviewed her for TEDx Palo Alto, how did you get to interview her for TEDx Palo Alto? Because the director of TEDx Palo Alto knew of me she didn’t know me personally, she knew of me because she used the Macintosh. So one day out of the blue, I get this email. I have Jane Goodall coming to TEDx Palo Alto, I’m looking for a moderator will you interview her on stage? Well, holy shit, who’s gonna say no to that? Right. So now, how did she know of me? Macintosh? How did I get to Macintosh? Because my classmate at Stanford hired me. It’s not because I was qualified on paper to work at Apple. It’s because nepotism, how did I meet him? I met him at Stanford. How did I become friends with him? Well, he loved cars, and I love cars. And how did you come to love cars? Well, it was because in high school, somebody gave me a ride in his Porsche. And I thought, oh my god, this is the reason to work and study, insipid as that may sound. I wanted to not change the world, I wanted to change the car. So how did I get into that school that, you know, got me this ride in 911. It was because a sixth grade teacher, in a lower middle class part of Hawaii convinced my parents that I had too much potential to remain in the public school system of Hawaii. And she told my parents, he has too much potential, you got to get them out of this school system, and get them into a college prep school system. So she convinced my parents, thank you, God, my parents listened to her and made the sacrifice to get me into the school called Iolani. I don’t know why, but somehow at Iolani I applied to Stanford, I don’t know why. But somehow Stanford accepted me, which led me to meet this guy, which hired me into Apple that got me famous. That got me to Jane Goodall. And so those are the dots in just one part of my life. Now, at any given moment, could I have told you that that’s how we would work not at all?

Kara Goldin 14:05
Well, it’s interesting, too, because when I think as you’re describing that, it it’s also it connects you with goodness, right? And it makes you think that about her life and how she’s giving back and going back to you know, why you do these books and why you have your podcast and and why you’re I mean, you’re still giving with this wisdom and information and I think when you surround yourself with people like that, that do give back I think and give back doesn’t necessarily mean writing checks, right? Give back rooms, storytelling and telling you full of how this right and, and I just think like, that’s another piece of this too.

Guy Kawasaki 14:53
Listen, Carol when I die. I want people to say that I empowered them. I empowered them. My writing my speaking my podcasting, my investing my advising. And you know, like Case in point, let’s take the episode that you are on, right? So when you were on my podcast, you told the story of what it took to get into Whole Foods. And that was a great story about you know, it began with a personal relationship with some sales clerk in Whole Foods, San Francisco, and he helped you get into that store. And that led to one thing and another and another. And next thing, you know, hint is really successful. And I’m telling you that that story has been listened to by 1000s of people, some of whom are, you know, they’re raising pumpkins, or they’re, they’re making organic yogurt or something. And, you know, they’re trying to get in and they’re trying to figure out how do I get into Walmart? Or how do I get into Target? How do I get into Whole Foods, and they think it’s like some magic formula that some food broker for the right commission is going to pick up the phone and Bada bing, bada bang, you’re in Whole Foods. And then, and so what I’m trying to do is like, for this, this group of entrepreneurs, I want them to listen to that story and say, You know what, it’s not a top down approach by some shuck and jive, food broker, it’s pressing flesh in your local Whole Foods store where your water does, well. That store tells another manager tells another matters or next thing, you’re in the West coals Whole Foods. Next thing, you’re in every market. And I think that’s how life is.

Kara Goldin 16:39
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that that’s, I totally agree with you if I can actually empower people to know that they can write and I think like, that’s a power of Yes. Saying, right. And it’s up to I such a big believer, it’s up to you to be able to do that. And that’s what remarkable people show us.

Guy Kawasaki 16:59
Yeah, and you know, this is this is going to be the Kara Goldin show, truly. So

Kara Goldin 17:07
here’s a Nightline score. I’m loving it, Guy keep going.

Guy Kawasaki 17:13
So I think another message that you reinforced and I have communicated and heard before, I once asked Mike Moritz of Sequoia Capital, like, what do you look for in the companies you invest in? Because Mike Moritz invested in Apple, Cisco, Facebook, Pinterest. Gotten like basically every five letter company that has become worth billions, Mike Moritz invested in okay. So he is arguably the most remarkable venture capitalists all? And the answer he told me is, you know, the richest vein for tech startups is to people in a garage or a bedroom. And they’re creating the product that they want to use. It’s not because they read Fast Company or a McKinsey report about the growing market for fruit flavored water. That report did not exist. So what’s your story? Your story is, you got disgusted with Diet Coke, and you needed something else to drink. And pain. Water was too boring. So you created hint with a flavor of fruit to replace your diet coke condition. And that reiterates the story. Why did she create hint? Because she wanted a better water? Not because she read a Goldman Sachs report about the burgeoning market for water. Totally,

Kara Goldin 18:44
totally. And typically, I think that the remarkable people too, don’t start, whether it’s a starting a company or an act or whatever, they don’t start out thinking, Oh, this is going to be amazing. And it’s going to make me lots of money, or it’s going to, or it’s going to get me a lot of publicity, or, I mean, I’m sure Jane Goodall didn’t sit there and, you know, do what she’s doing and all her amazing stories because she wanted to be known for that. No did it if she thought it was right. Well,

Guy Kawasaki 19:24
I and I would extend that story. I would be astounded if Steve Jobs ever had a discussion with either himself or other people along the lines of how can I position myself as a computer visionary? You know, I don’t think that conversation ever happened. He just, you know, he’s like, how can I make people more creative and productive? How can I introduce a cool computer? Now? Don’t get me wrong. Steve wanted to make money and lots of people want to make money. I’m not saying that’s evil or wrong. But that can be an underlying desire. But the way you do that is you make a difference. If you make a difference, you’ll probably also make money. Mm hmm.

Kara Goldin 20:11
No I and solve problems for people too. Right. So another person that you talk about in the book is Gretchen Carlson. Yeah. And she, there’s it Tyler Schultz is also another one from the Theranos days, but Gretchen went up against Fox, Tyler went up against Theranos it like, what do you what’s in them? That makes them say, I’ve got to go do this.

Guy Kawasaki 20:40
I think that, you know, one of the paths to being remarkable is that you want to do what’s right. And like Tyler Schultz, the grandson of George Schultz. Now, let’s just review terrenos. So Theranos had this miraculous promise, right? That they were going to take a drop of your blood and give you all this diagnosis, which is kind of the holy grail of medical diagnosis, like who would not want to have that? Right. And, and, you know, she had the whole like, Stanford drop all black mock turtleneck, you know, the female Steve Jobs, she had the whole shtick going. And one of the things you notice is that in Silicon Valley, people depend on proxies. And a proxy is something that you think indicates some reality. So a proxy for intelligence is Stanford, if you went to Stanford, many people will figure must be smart. Now, just to be honest, I went to Stanford. And I know that people have made that assumption about me often, and justifiably so. So I am a benefactor of this proxy. Don’t get me wrong. Now, another proxy is oh, we have this former Secretary of State on our board named George Shultz, and we have this former military leader. And we have you know, they had the most decorated Board of Directors ever. Right. And I can imagine if you were the fourth or fifth board member of terrenos, you said, Ah, must be good company. They got George Schultz. Well, if you think about it, what does George Schultz know about medical diagnostics, but I digress. And so everybody thinks, oh, yeah, somebody else did the due diligence. And, you know, they got Tim Draper to invest. He’s a big deal VC, he must know what he’s doing. And, and proxies lead to proxies without checking reality. And that’s why two people are in prison today.

Kara Goldin 23:11
Absolutely, so. So, Tyler. I mean, for those who aren’t familiar with it, I mean, Tyler, why do you think he did that? Why do you think he stepped forward? And really? Well,

Guy Kawasaki 23:23
I know why, because I interviewed him for my podcast. And he basically said, it was a moral decision, that he wanted to do the right thing. Because not only was Theranos this story, wrong in the sense of misleading investors, which, you know, of all categories of people in the world. I don’t think most of you should be worried about the benefit and the welfare of venture capitalists. They’re not exactly an oppressed minority that you need to look out for them right? At all. However, in terra Gnosis case, when companies and in particular, the customers of those companies are depending on your technology for health decisions, this truly is life and death. And to to not be delivering the the true medical diagnostic results, that is immoral. I mean, you are putting people at risk. And I think he was driven by the desire to end that facade, that people are putting their lives at risk by depending on this.

Kara Goldin 24:43
It’s a it’s a remarkable, I mean, it’s a remarkable example. And I loved that you added that to the book for sure. So, being remarkable takes a ton of focus. You talk about a story of a professor at state Stanford, who caused you to start to do a sport that I frequently see you on your Instagram? And, you know, there’s some pretty good waves out there. So do you want to talk a little bit about that story? And how do you get people to be remarkable as well? Yes. So

Guy Kawasaki 25:22
the professor you’re referring to is all 98 pounds of Carol Dweck. She single handedly this destroys the myth of the 98 pound weakling. So Carol Dweck, is the mother of the growth mindset concept. And this is a concept that people can grow, you can gain new skills, new knowledge, you’re not stuck with what you are. And there have been two books that have been formative in my life. The first book is Brenda humans, if you want to, right, so any of you listening out there, if you want to be a writer, an artist, a musician, a cook, an entrepreneur, a podcaster, any kind of creative endeavor, and you’re feeling like, I’m not sure I can do this. I haven’t been trained in France to cook. I don’t have a PhD in English. I haven’t been to art school. I can’t be an artist or a writer or a chef. You need to buy this book. Because this book is written for writers, but just substitute what you want to do for writing. And Brenda Yulan was this writing instructor at the University of Minnesota and the gist of this book is don’t listen to the naysayers. Don’t listen to people saying you can’t write a book unless you have a PhD in English. And one of the most potent naysayers is the one inside your head, which is you telling yourself you can’t write a book because you don’t have a PhD in English. So if you want to write destroys that negativity, so that enabled me to write and then a decade later, I read Carol Dweck book. And, you know, I had never learned to surf even though I grew up in Hawaii, because when I was young, I didn’t have the growth mindset. I thought I was good at scholastics. And you know, good in some sports, but surfing was too hard. I couldn’t do it, blah, blah, blah. And then I read her book. So I took up surfing and hockey much later in life, like 44 for hockey and 60 for surfing. And I attribute that to reading Carol Dweck book that says, You know what, you can try anything, you can learn anything, you know, and there’s no embarrassment and failure. So go for it. And people would remarkable track records believe this.

Kara Goldin 28:00
Definitely. It’s such a, it’s such a great book. I remember. It’s not a brand new book. And I remember reading her her book years ago, and I thought it was so yeah, I thought it was so great. You know, to

Guy Kawasaki 28:14
apply it to you. It would be like saying, I cannot start hint, because I don’t have an MBA in entrepreneurship. Right? Yeah. That a lot. Yeah,

Kara Goldin 28:26
definitely. Oh, what? Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s it’s interesting. I mean, there are there are people who, who have said that founders can’t be CEOs of companies. There are many people in Silicon Valley, who would actually say that, you know, oh, founders, you know, they’re too crazy, right? They can’t run. They can’t actually be a CEO of a company. Yet. There’s many examples. Where that has been the case, there are some people who even would go so far as to say, maybe not everybody today, but to say that you have to have an MBA in order to run a company or you have to have a college degree. And, you know, there’s outliers out there. That’s another book. Yes. Right. And, but it’s but I think that people are unremarkable. People are too quick to actually come to, you know, the quick short soundbite of, of Right, right, being able to think they know what remarkable people are capable of.

Guy Kawasaki 29:37
So I have two thoughts about this. The first thought is, and I’ve noticed this a lot in my career, that in a sense, people pay attention too much to the macro data analysis. And by that I mean Let’s take the pursuit of venture capital. So let’s say that you read in some magazine that venture capital funding is down for q1 2024 30%, from what it was in q1 2023. And you think Holy shit, venture capital is down 30% I won’t get funded. Or let’s say 2024 is 30% higher than 2023. And you think, oh my god, so easy to get venture capital, it’s up 30%? Well, you’re looking at the big picture number, and you don’t care about the number, whether it’s up or down. All you care about is can you raise the million dollars that you need? And in a sense, it’s just like dating. If you read that, you know, the odds of finding a spouse living in San Francisco have been reduced by 20%. Oh, my God, I’m never going to find my perfect soulmate. But really, the answer is, you only need one man or woman to be your soulmate. You don’t need to solve all of San Francisco’s problem. You just need one person, all you care about is this physics of view. Can you get your investment? Can you get your soulmate? Who cares about the big picture? So that’s thought number one. Thought number two. And this is in the book, it comes from Dan Simon’s who is the guy who made the Invisible Gorilla video where he saw that, you know, this is a test where there are kids wearing black and white t shirts. And subjects are supposed to count how many times the kids in black T shirts, toss the beach ball. And in the middle of that video walked the another student wearing a gorilla outfit. And 50% of the people were so focused on the counting the beach balls, they didn’t even notice the gorilla. Anyway, he’s famous for that video. But what he told me is, you know, guy, you always have to ask what’s missing from the story. And, and this is very important for entrepreneurs. So you know, how many of us have heard this story? Oh, you don’t need a college degree, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs, they didn’t have college degrees. In fact, a college degree might hurt you. If you want to be an entrepreneur, you shouldn’t be wasting time getting a college degree. Zuckerberg gates and jobs didn’t have one? Well, Dan Simon’s take and what I explained in the book is, you got to ask what’s missing? And what’s missing is yes, those are three outlying examples of kids without college degrees, who became extremely successful. But you also have to ask the question, well, how many people with college degrees became successful? And Dan Simon’s did this. And they analyze that in? I don’t know, whatever year 100% of the CEOs of unicorns had a college degree. So you may have heard of three examples of people who are successful without college degrees. But the data is that 100% of unicorns had college degrees. And you also asked after, after, you also have to ask the question, well, how many people without college degrees are unsuccessful? And how many people with college degrees were unsuccessful? So you need to ask all the boxes. It’s a two by two matrix. Successful, not successful college degree, no college degree, you cannot just focus on no college degree success, because there’s three other boxes. And those boxes may be more statistically valid and and pertinent to you than these three outlying unicorn purple collar exceptions.

Kara Goldin 34:23
No, I think that’s true. But I also think it’s true that you have to look to at the individuals and you’re out and you have to figure out Yes. So I mean, the number of people who have come up to me over the years investors early days of hint, who have said, I remember when you pitched me, and I thought, What in the world is this tech executive doing launching a beverage she’s pregnant with her fourth, the odd fair, or not good, that this thing is actually going to be able to even get off the ground. But you proved me wrong. And I think like, that’s the thing that there are outliers out there. And Adam Grant writes all about this to where, you know, you got to pay attention to those people, because some of the stats just don’t add up. Right. And so I think it’s, it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting piece when you’re looking at remarkable people, I guess, is the moral of the story. But so to be remarkable, somebody’s listening to this, and they’re like, I’m kind of average, I would love to be remarkable, but I’m not. How can you get remarkable?

Guy Kawasaki 35:38
Okay. Like, this may actually hurt sales of the book. But let me be honest, right. So this book is not a field good. Self help kind of book. Yeah, yeah, there is never going to be a $5,000.02 day conference, where you go, and Guy Kawasaki for five grand is going to show you how to be remarkable. And you go into this big hall at the Ritz Carlton Hotel, and Guy Kawasaki stands up and says, All right, all of you stand up. Look at the person to your right. You tell that person? Yes, you can be remarkable. And give him a hug. Now look to your left, say the same thing. Tell her she can be remarkable, hunker, you’re gonna be remarkable. This ain’t gonna happen. This is not a self help. Guru. I’m not a, you know, I’m not Deepak Chopra. Okay. So what I’m telling you is that the way to be remarkable, is to make a difference. You don’t, the key point is not to decide that I’m going to be remarkable from now on. The key point is this book explains how to make a difference. And if you make a difference, society will have no choice but to consider your remarkable. So it’s not about putting lipstick on a pig. It’s about making a difference. And then the lipstick will be

Kara Goldin 37:18
there. I love it. So guy such an inspiration, always. And this book, I think remarkable. It’s it’s a quick read. But it actually it got me super thinking right about about not only the different examples that I really hadn’t necessarily placed them into the camp of being remarkable or doing remarkable things. And it’s, it left me feeling very motivated, right to go out and find these other remarkable people. And, and it did, and you’re remarkable people

Guy Kawasaki 37:58
in the world, I hardly think that you need motivation.

Kara Goldin 38:01
I do I love reading about people, because I like I said, I think it is there are little pieces that you can always grab from people and, and figure out, you know, well, if they can do it, I can do it too. And that’s why your book is amazing. And just, you know, you are such a good writer to your thing. I mean, you are.

Guy Kawasaki 38:25
The key here is that what a reader of this book benefits from is my filtering and analysis. Because to this point, I have interviewed about 220 remarkable people. And so I have done the service of pattern recognition of taking all that data and distilling it down to 175 pages. And I believe that’s a valuable service. And I want people to perfectly understand this is not a guy, you know, worship book, you know, this is how brilliant and great I am read my book. This book is about other remarkable people. I am the catalyst. I’m not the main event. This is not guy story. This is their story.

Kara Goldin 39:20
Well, you’re, you’re remarkable, and you’re a great editor. So it’s it and telling us telling us and reminding us, it’s super powerful. So thank you so much. We’ll have all the info in the show notes. But appreciate you coming and talking to us a bit more.

Guy Kawasaki 39:38
Thank you for having me on.

Kara Goldin 39:39
Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would, please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin I would love to hear from you too, so feel free to DM me. And if you want to hear more about my journey I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book undaunted where I share more about my journey including founding and building hint. We are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening and good bye for now.