John Jantsch – Author, Speaker, Marketing Consultant, and Podcaster Behind Duct Tape Marketing
Episode 115
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Transcript
Kara Goldin 00:00
Hi everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin Show. So excited to have my next guest here, you may recognize his voice when he starts talking. This is John Jantsch. rhymes with pants. So not to be confused in any way, it’s spelled a little bit differently. But he runs an amazing podcast called duct tape marketing that you may be familiar with. And you can check it out and also see a little bit more about him and his website at duct tape marketing.com. He’s also got, an amazing book out that is called the self-reliant entrepreneur. So we’re going to hear a little bit more about that. But John’s has been called one of the world’s most practical small business experts for consistently delivering proven real-world small business marketing ideas and strategies. I was recently on his podcast and just talking to him, he’s just, you just have all these little nuggets that you add on to conversations that I think are, are just really awesome. So when I was on chatting with him, I just felt like he really got it. And I wanted to ask him to come on because I knew there are so many people who are really looking for lots of nuggets around how all of us have built things are how do you be a great CEO? Or how do you stay being a founder and in a company and etc. So he’s the president of the duct tape marketing system, and consulting network as well. And just so much, so much that he is doing this great. So anyway, welcome, welcome. Sure, we’ll talk about some of the other great stuff that you have going on, as well in But anyway, more than anything, John, welcome. I’m gonna let you do the talking. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Kara. I’ve appreciated and congratulations on the launch of your first book. Look, yeah, it’s going well, and hopefully, it’s selling even more water. Thank you. So how many Wait, have you but you have more books? Yeah, this book we’re going to talk about today, the self-reliant entrepreneur is actually my sixth book. And believe it or not, I just last week turned in my seventh book to Oh, my God, Harper Collins Leadership, who’s going to publish that in the fall of 2021. And that was my culture as well. So yeah, that’s, that’s awesome. Very, very cool. So give a little bit of background, besides what I’ve been chatting about on you give a little bit of background on, who john was before being known as the duct tape marketer?
John Jantsch 02:55
Well, we got to go back a long way, if we’re gonna do that. I started by us doing marketing consulting practice about 30 years ago. And I, you know, I got out of college went to work for an ad agency for about five years and thought, you know, like, a lot of people, any dummy can run a business, you know, all this jump out, do my own thing, and no plan, you know, other than I knew I could hustle work. And so, you know, I eventually started to kind of grow that taking big projects, little projects, big companies, little companies didn’t care. But somewhere along the way, I got a couple of small business clients, and I really loved working with them. But they were, they were kind of frustrating, you know because they had the same challenges and needs as much bigger firms, but certainly not the same ability to pay for it, or even the same attention spans. So somewhere around I love saying this the turn of the century, I decided that, that what I needed to do if I wanted to work with small business owners was to create a very systematic approach where I could walk in and say, here’s what I’m going to do. Here’s what you’re going to do, here are the results we hope to get. And by the way, here’s what it costs. And I, you know, tried to solve my frustration working with small business owners, I kind of pretty quickly learned that I tapped into what is still today one of the biggest frustrations for typical small and midsize businesses, it’s kind of hard to buy marketing services. I mean, it’s changing rapidly. Everybody’s selling a piece of the puzzle. And you know, very few people actually are talking about strategy before tactics. And so it was kind of a welcome message, I think and so I built a full practice doing that and started, started writing about it. That actually turned into duct tape marketing. The name came quite frankly, from my sort of my thinking that I was turning marketing into almost a product for a small business and so I needed to give it a more branded name. And so that’s really where the name duct tape marketing came from. And that that turned into a book that my first book that you mentioned and then also turned into, we now train in licensed consultants all over the world, to use our methodology and our system. So that’s, that’s kind of the two-minute version of, you know what I’ve been doing for the last 2530 years.
Kara Goldin 05:15
That’s amazing. When you met with companies, early on, you talked about them as small businesses, what was the? Like, what were the companies that were? What stage were they at where it was really kind of? I don’t know, if hardest, what is like the right question, but I feel like its different stages create different challenges.
John Jantsch 05:40
No question. If you think about what I was doing this is before the internet, you know, is when I started my business, and so, you know, the idea of startups and, and, you know, Silicon Valley was really not even a thing. So much. And so a lot of the businesses I started working with were, you know, your very traditional kind of mom and pop, you know, five accountants, you know, three lawyers, remodeling contractor, you know, that kind of local, you know, brick and mortar type of business, and many of them, at least who we attracted were people that were, I wouldn’t certainly call them startups, I mean, they were, and they and they probably wouldn’t even be considered in necessarily in growth, or, you know, scaling phases, you know, the things we talked about, today, they were kind of, you know, like, a lot of small businesses, you know, 20-30 years ago, were created almost as a way to just create a job for, you know, some for the owners, you know, or for the people that went to work there. And so, a lot of the reason that, that they were contacting us is because they had, they had been outwardly successful. I mean, we’re talking about, you know, 10 $15 million remodeling contractor, which on for local remodeling business, that’s a pretty decent sized business, but they had, they had no sort of systematic or really even formal approach to marketing, it was, you know, they did good work and hope people talk about them. And, and, and, and all of a sudden, there was this new thing coming along, you know, websites, and the internet and, and digital marketing. And, and so, you know, a lot of the appeal was that I think, our firm and our message was really kind of about, hey, we’ll help you kind of straddle that, that that new, you know, new frontier, but also kind of mix it with, I would say, the practical nature of, of, you know, knowing how they really get their business. So, the businesses we quite often had been in business for, you know, 810 years. But they, you know, they’ve kind of grown to what they could keep their arms around that was about the extent. Yeah, do
Kara Goldin 07:42
you feel like, so? Do you think the strategy, the marketing strategy for somebody who’s local versus somebody that’s national, above and beyond sort of the, maybe the advertising? If you have budgets? to do that? Do you think it’s different?
John Jantsch 08:00
Yeah, it’s, I think it is, I mean, the obvious, obviously, you know, to be able to, I mean, there certainly are e-commerce companies that are, you know, working in a little back room, you know, it’s but still sending stuff all over the world today, because we can, but, you know, in the traditional kind of business Foundation, just the pure size makes a difference. But also, you know, if you are a local business, and you’re constrained by local customer base because that’s, you know, that’s who can and will buy from you, the marketing is quite different because it has to be it, it has to be much more locally-focused, much more community-focused. But it also there also is a believer not there’s a, there’s a local SEO component today that’s become, you know, virtually. if you’re not showing up, if you’re that local business and people are searching, and they’re not finding you on the three-pack, you know, of Google on their mobile device, then you don’t exist, because so much business is done that way today.
Kara Goldin 09:02
So true. So you’ve written about how marketing has changed in the digital world? I’d love for you to dig into that a little bit.
John Jantsch 09:11
Sure. Well, some of the obvious things that people talk about the platforms and the, you know, the channels and the way that we can directly, you know, as you do in your business, you know, directly reach and communicate with customers. You know, those are all pretty substantial changes that a lot of people point to, but I think the biggest thing that’s changed is how people buy how people become customers that’s changed more than marketing itself. I think our job as marketers hasn’t really fundamentally changed that much. It’s just we have to now understand the customer journey and how people come to find the companies that they do business with, how they talk about them, how they, how they decide to buy from them. That’s the part that I think has changed. The most you know, all the other stuff that you know, email marketing and tik tok and E All the new things that, you know, that have come along, those are just different ways for people to access and come to know about companies. But, you know, earning, making a promise to solve some of this problem and earning the trust, so they’ll give us their money to solve that problem. You know, that’s as ancient as, as you know, marketing gets. And that hasn’t changed.
Kara Goldin 10:24
Yeah, I’m such a huge believer in that, too. I talk all the time about, you know, this consumer, and how if you start with them actually owning the decision. Right. And so people, it’s amazing how people don’t really, they think, how do I, how do I reach this person, and that’s one piece of it. But the other piece of it is that it’s not just about reaching because they can go wherever they want. I mean, in the case of a hint, my company, for example, we’re available in lots of stores. And, you know, before offices closed, we were available in lots of offices, and, and online, and also on Amazon, and people will say, as an example, like what if, I mean, we have over 55% of our business today is online. But people will say, well, they write to me and say, you know, I can buy it at target for less money than I can buy it from you guys online. What should I do? Because I want to support you as a business. I’m like, you should buy it wherever you want. Right? Because you’re the customer, and you’re ultimately going to be making that decision. And I think that that kind of answer for consumers, too, is exactly the answer that whether or not everybody’s saying that to them or not, that will be their own, this consumer owns exactly what’s ultimately going to happen. And I can imagine for some of your smaller businesses, too, I mean, with the effect of digital on them, and, and it’s, they can go wherever they want to order physical products or services, or, you know, it’s an interesting time.
John Jantsch 12:18
Well, and I would flip that around a little bit, the fact that you have customers that want to buy from you are actually willing to pay more, yeah, buy from you, because they want to support you, I think says a lot about the narrative and the and the story of Hinton, you and your company. And I think that that’s, you know, that’s the part that I think is become so much more important in this, particularly in this strange year of 2020. I noticed that many of the companies that we work with many of the brands that we work with, the ones that are really thriving, and you know, had that close relationship with customers that that wanted them to be around, you know, didn’t want this to, to have a negative impact. And that’s a, you know, that’s a That, to me is a true testament of the success of a business of certain of their marketing.
Kara Goldin 13:08
Yeah, I remember when we were raising money for him early on. And, you know, I would I had just gotten so used to sharing my story because people said, Why it like you’re a tech executive, why’d you start to decide to start this company, and I told the health story, etc. And then when I was out raising money, I remember one of the VCs that I was talking to said, don’t actually tell your founding story to people, because it’ll make you look really small. And today, I mean, more and more people are saying that they actually should tell their founding story, because I think people, right, and it’s such a, it’s, I mean, that was 15 years ago, and I think that’s truly flipped. And total. I think that concern. And as I was talking today to somebody about this whole topic, too, I think that it can, you know, if you have a founder or an owner of a company that behaves badly, it can work against you, too. I mean, it’s like you, you’re in the spotlight. And so I think you have to behave yourself and, and not that I do anything that interesting. Anyway, so But anyway, I just think it’s it’s a very, very important aspect. Do you find that a lot of by the time they come to you Do you feel like a lot of them are trying to figure that out whether or not they tell their story or not? Well,
John Jantsch 14:38
I think it’s become so much more prevalent like you say, they’re, you know, their books written about it all the time. And so it’s, it’s certainly become more expected. I think, in certain industries, as you kind of pointed to, I mean, the story is actually the product differentiator you know, I mean, there definitely are a lot of people that that could Theoretically knock off what you’re doing. But part of the connection to what you’re doing in your brand is is is the stork. Although I do have a line extension for you, I think you should come up with a hard hint.
Kara Goldin 15:13
Yeah. Oh, we thought of that. Yeah. So we’ve got, we’ve toyed around with that. So I actually, we’ve thought about doing the white claw equivalent with no sweeteners in it. So Well, well,
John Jantsch 15:29
I put a little tequila in the cherry, and I’m telling you, it’s pretty good.
Kara Goldin 15:32
It’s pretty good. Yeah, I know. And we’ve had many people share that. And it’s, it’s a super great idea. I can’t say that you’re the first one that ever said that. So John Legend, one of our investors has the BlackBerry in particular. So that’s, that’s his favorite. And I think it’s, I think it’s with vodka, actually. But I think he’s tried it with tequila points along the way, as well. But anyway, so speaking of companies were, what did you feel like was the, like, name one company that you’ve worked with that you felt like that was just kind of a surprising moment that you guys had together and tried to figure out the marketing challenges and journey?
John Jantsch 16:21
You know, I can’t I’ll, I’ll use to the one really big one, one really small. I in the early days of all of this content and stuff going on, a very small group of folks started American Express’s open forum. So it was the open card, and their open forum, which is now you know, I think still is still around and it is, you know, got a lot that’s there in the archives. But there were about five of us that actually helped them start that, when they, you know, they were one of the early kind of very big brands to jump on this whole idea of lots of content and producing, you know, useful resources for their, for their client base that was not related to, you know, their product or service in any way, other than to, you know, be a value add to the relationship. So that was, that was fun, frankly, because it was, you know, it was very new, and it was very successful in the way in which it, it took off. But then, you know, probably my favorite is I have a remodeling contractor in Kansas City. I’m in Kansas City, Missouri today. And I have a client that I’ve had since 2004. And they were the, I’m quite certain the first remodeling contractor that was blogging back in early 2004 2005. But the reason I’ve loved working with them is when I started working with them, they were, you know, a small, very, you know, kind of mom and pop firm, they have just, you know, had double-digit growth every year in an industry that has some ups and downs. And it’s just been fun to kind of, you know, almost feel like a part of the family. It is a family that owns a business and I’ve kind of feel like a part of the family. And but they’ve you know, they’ve grown to be certainly by far and away from the largest remodeling contractor in Kansas City.
Kara Goldin 18:21
I know, I always look at houses and some of the others. You know, I’m not necessarily, actually I’ve done quite a few little projects here and there. But I’m always trying to my curiosity, as an entrepreneur, I’m always trying to figure this stuff out along the way. So what would you say? And then I want to get into the book, what would you say is like the kind of the number one thing that somebody should do from a marketing standpoint today if I’m your neighbor, and I’m starting this new company, and you know, want to go and get it out there? What do you think is the key thing?
John Jantsch 18:56
Well, so I have two bits of advice. Because if you’ve got a business going, you know, and it’s you know, you’re thinking, How do I take it to the next level, my advice is, go and spend a whole bunch of time talking to your customers, and let them tell you and share with you what the problem you really solve. Because it’s not I agree probably not your product. It’s, it’s something else, you know, that that you you do for them. But if you’re just starting up, what a lot of times when I tell people is found somebody who’s already got the market, you think you want to get into and find a way to partner find a way to provide some something of value to them that that that gives them a reason for them to introduce you to their customer base. So for example, when I was all this content stuff was first taking off online, there were a lot of companies who were scrambling for like, well, we don’t have a content team. We don’t know what to write, you know, we were kind of lost. And yeah, I made a couple of really big inroads into large software companies, too, because they had a small business as their, as their clientele that who bought, you know, sage software was one of them, they had a couple of small business titles and so they were looking for people to partner with that, you know, could educate their small businesses on, you know how to do marketing. And so, you know, I went out and, you know, they probably between all of the events I did for them and a couple of ebooks that I wrote for them that they distributed to their, to their customer by segment, they probably were worth 1000s of customers, in the end, you know, too, you know, whether there are book buyers or course buyers or, you know, folks that worked with, with our consultants, we still have some today I know that came from that relationship. So, you know, that’s, that is sort of the secret weapon. I think for a lot of folks just getting started, particularly in service businesses.
Kara Goldin 20:53
Yeah. And then you can always move on to, you know, step two of hiring people internally if you really need to do that. But I think that that’s, that’s great. And you look much bigger, too, as well. That’s right, you’re
John Jantsch 21:06
right. I mean, you borrow from their credibility and their trust, and it’s like a referral. And it’s just a great way to get started. Quickly. Yeah, cuz that’s the challenge is getting, getting that first sort of shot of momentum a lot of times is really tough.
Kara Goldin 21:19
Yeah, I when, in your first point about talking to your customers, I remember, I would casually talk to my friends, but I realized about my idea for unsweetened flavored water. But I realized that I was even ahead of them. Right that I wanted a product that didn’t have sweeteners. And as you know, my story I always talk about, you know, we not only started a company, but I realized pretty early on that we were starting a new category. And so for people who are starting new categories in any industry, you’re way ahead of the consumer. And so often the consumer, you know, doesn’t necessarily know what they want, right? And yeah, but I would then go into Whole Foods, and I’d watch this consumer that was buying diet drinks, and like healthier drinks. And I’d say, Oh, hey, have you ever tried that product before? And I just started, and some people just were like, Oh, she’s weird. I’m not going to talk to her. And so they like to go away. But a lot of times people would actually give me a go, this one’s okay. It’s just like, I don’t really like the fruit that they use, you know, are the flavor that they use, and, oh, you should try this one. They don’t have it at the store. But they have it at this other store, they have a good. And so I just found just by kind of hanging out in the aisle. And that is where my consumer would be. I was like, I better. And I’ve never been a huge believer in focus groups. I used to hire lots of people in tech for focus groups. And I feel like it’s, it’s way better if you actually just, you know, if you’re starting a hardware store, or you’ve got this idea, just go into a hardware store and start talking to people on the, you know, in the different aisles. And, you know, hopefully, you won’t get kicked out. Maybe that’s not a great example. But you get what I’m saying? It’s, it’s,
John Jantsch 23:06
yeah, I mean, it’s everything. I mean, if you launch a website, you know, get people to look at it and tell you what, not what they think. But get them to do what it is you want them to do. Because I think I think that’s a great example of, you know, we build these things, and we think they’re perfect, and like the buttons right there. And it’s like they can’t figure out how to use it. It’s like, yeah, it’s obvious, but nothing’s obvious. So yeah, dude, the dude actually learns, you know, the real behavior. That’s, you know, that’s
Kara Goldin 23:34
I was, I was listening to morning brew, do you ever listen to that? podcast, I was listening to morning brew, and they had a woman on there who used to be at sweet greens. And she was ahead of marketing. And I just, I put it on my Lexus. She was just like it, you know, talking on the audio as I’m getting ready this morning. And she said something that was so interesting about branding that I think a lot of people don’t do, which is that consider every single touchpoint, to be an opportunity to brand it seems obvious, but things like invoices, things like sure, you know, emails that go out, every single piece should really be talking about the same consistent message around your brand. And I loved that I just, it was just a great reminder that, you know, I, I wrote to my head of marketing, who’s awesome, but I was like, I was like, do you think we’re like every single touchpoint? Have we covered it? And I think it’s just always just a good reminder every few months to go and look at that.
John Jantsch 24:44
Well, and it is really easy to get detached from some of the communication and things that are going out there to the world because maybe designed to once and they’re working, you know, but you know, are they branded as you said and, and I think a lot of the challenges. It’s almost Just a cultural thing. It’s not just marketing. You know, I mean, it’s, it’s almost because you think about all the people that that do come into contact with customers and prospects. I mean, they’re, you know, a lot of them don’t have like marketing on their business card any anywhere. Yeah, but they’re certainly performing a marketing function.
Kara Goldin 25:17
Yeah. And also getting them to tell their friends and figuring out some way to build the audience in that way. Okay, so now, that Drum roll, I wish I had a drum, Baba Baba. Okay, self-reliant entrepreneur, so good. And with so many amazing little tips in there and the book offers. I guess I’ll take your quote, overworked and harried. I don’t know, if I would, I would say I’m harried, but I’m definitely overworked. But enjoying what I’m doing a much-needed Practice Guide to embrace the practice of self-trust. And I certainly can completely relate to that, because I think that the biggest problem that I had early on was actually trusting myself. And so any reminder to and, and that journey continues at times. So talk to me a little bit about why you decided to do this. And Sherman, the meditations you have in here, two are pretty awesome.
John Jantsch 26:19
So as I think I mentioned, it’s my sixth book, and all my other books are very practical how-to, you know, some aspect of marketing and this book is not a how-to book at all, it’s, it’s more of a why-to book, and it’s a book that I wrote, maybe started to write, you know, for myself, I, you know, I think that entrepreneurship is one of the greatest self-development programs ever created. If you, you know, take the opportunity and, and, you know, 20 or so years ago, you know, I really embrace that idea. And, and, you know, started practices and morning rituals, started practices of reading and, you know, getting inspired and, and, you know, really trying to, I do think that you know, as entrepreneurs, you go out there a lot of days and get kind of beat up and you got to like recharge again, you know, the next day, and do it again. And so I wrote a book that fit into my morning ritual of, you know, reading and journaling. And so the way the book is structured is you have a different reading every day. I actually curated literature from the mid 19th century. So all of the all the literature that I quote, you know, each day some reading is from a narrow band of literature written for about 1850 to 1870. And the reason I chose that is that’s, that’s writing that I think, is still today, some of the best entrepreneurial writing ever. It was the first countercultural period in America, at least, it was you think about what was going on, we’re on the cusp of the Civil War, women were starting to march in the streets to get the right to vote. We were trying to abolish the illegal act of human slavery. And so it was a time in this country when a lot of the literature was certainly some of it was very overt about, you know, we need to stop listening to our, you know, teachers and preachers and parents, and we need to start thinking for ourselves. It was also a time when a lot of the greatest literature that we’ve all been asked to read in high school in college from, you know, Herman Melville, and Thoreau and Louisa May Alcott was written, and it was the first time in American literature where the protagonists, were actually finally saying, you know, this may cost me everything, but I have to do. And so to me, that that literature and that that writing has stood the test of time, and I think it offers some amazing insights for us as entrepreneurs today. So I took every day and you have some sort of reading that I curated from hundreds of authors in that period. And then 150 to 200 words for me, contextualize it, maybe for today. And then I leave you every day with a question that I call a challenge question. So it’s just meant to be a little two-minute exercise that you dip into every day and hopefully get some inspiration around some of the recurring themes that I’ve, you know, discovered in my entrepreneurial journey.
Kara Goldin 29:18
Which one of the meditations is your favorite?
John Jantsch 29:21
There are 366 of them, Carol?
Kara Goldin 29:23
I know. Okay, well, just so ring brings up one. So here’s
John Jantsch 29:27
I have an idea. You and I are recording this on December 10. to December 10.
Kara Goldin 29:32
Okay, perfect.
John Jantsch 29:33
I think that’ll give people a real flavor and you’re gonna like this one because its title is feminine energy. So I picked that up. Just don’t have
Kara Goldin 29:41
much of that though. It’s fine. All right. So I did. Just kidding.
John Jantsch 29:49
So hear me and I’m suggesting everybody I think needs a deed. So some level of that, but so it’s feminine energy and then then the reading and then my part and then the question, so Every new relation, and every new scene should be a new page in the book of the mysteries of life reverently and lovingly pursued, but it folded down never to be read again, it must be regarded as only the introduction to a brighter one. That was written by a woman named Sophia Ripley in 1841. And it was in a publication called the dial, which was a popular magazine of the time, and the essay was called women. All right, now my part, the transcendentalists were social reformers as a lot about the only thing they agreed upon universally was what might have been called their liberal bias. The period featured the emergence of a strong female of strong female voices, given a platform perhaps for the first time ripleys essay appearing in the movement’s official publication, the dial attempts to describe the ideal or perfect woman. Although it does contain language relating to the traditional domestic roles at the time, it also explores feminine energy in ways that transcend gender. It’s worth a search to read the entire essay. And you’re asked how is this is going to apply to your entrepreneurial journey, a healthy business values feminine and masculine energy to see your problem and want to fix it, even if it’s not broken? And to view every new relation, and every new scene as a new page in the book of the mysteries, this topic is too colossal to tackle in this space. But today, consider pay attention to it and see if you find some truth in its existence. To your challenge question today? What is your default response? when challenged? Think about a recent event. Do you know others who respond differently than you? Hmm.
Kara Goldin 31:52
I love that.
John Jantsch 31:53
So 90 of daily
Kara Goldin 31:58
now I? Yeah, no, I love it. I love it. It’s such a good idea. And I think to expect it’s really a tool, right? It just kind of I mean, I always talk about how at every single level, whether you’re a student, or an entrepreneur, or your management consultant, or new podcaster or whatever, you always have to be learning that the happiest people today are challenged. They’re a little bit afraid. They’re undaunted. They’re, you know, they’re constantly looking and striving to that. And I think that your book just is just another tool for that. And I,
John Jantsch 32:43
in fact, I tell people all the time that I wrote this book, which was a stretch for me, I mean, this was the hardest book I’ve actually written. And it, you know, a tremendous amount of research, you know, had to go into it. And I wrote this book because I found myself a couple of years ago when I started this project, kind of feeling a little stuck. And, and, you know, it was like, I needed something to push me a little bit, you know, I’d written about talked about marketing for 25 years, and I was like, I need something different. And so this book, in a lot of ways, kind of revived my joy, you know, for, you know, what I was doing and my business. So, I joke about your point, I think that we have to sometimes look for those things.
Kara Goldin 33:24
Yeah, absolutely. So john, besides duct tape marketing, and going on to your great podcast, where can people find you on social?
John Jantsch 33:33
You bet. So the easiest way to find me of everything I’ve been doing for the last few decades is just duct tape marketing.com. And that’s d u c, t, ta p e marketing.com. And duct tape marketing on all the social media platforms except for Twitter. Because when I got on Twitter, which was the fall of 22,005 when it first launched, you can only have eight characters as your handle. And so I’ve just duct tape instead of duct tape marketing. They’ve since changed that, but I don’t want to change my
Kara Goldin 34:07
interesting. Oh, that’s really great. Well, very excited. And if you guys liked this podcast, definitely give it great reviews and share it and all that kind of stuff. And we will be here every Monday and Wednesday with amazing people like john to share lots of ideas and experiences with you. So thanks so much for listening.
