Jennifer Justice: Founder & CEO of The Justice Dept

Episode 311

Jennifer “JJ” Justice is a force! She is the CEO & Founder of The Justice Dept which is a business development, management, strategy and legal firm that works with female entrepreneurs and executives to build their business. JJ founded The Justice Department after 17 years working alongside Jay-Z as his personal entertainment attorney. She has been a force in championing gender equality & diversity and this episode is fire filled with so much to listen to. JJ also hosts the podcast, Takin’ Care of Lady Business, which I am thrilled to have been a guest on. You are going to love to hear all about what she has to say on this incredible episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everybody, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I am so thrilled to have my next guest. Here we have Jennifer justice, who is the founder and CEO of the Justice Department. And I am just absolutely thrilled that we were able to get her to come on today, she has an amazing, amazing background that I know we can all learn from. She started the Justice Department after she was working very, very closely with Jay Z as his personal entertainment attorney for 17 years was also general counsel of rock nation, and helping to lead this growth and strategies. So she’s definitely had operations experience to which I absolutely love. And she has been a force at championing gender equality, and diversity in the work, place and beyond. And we’re going to learn a lot more about that and her focus and what she’s been able to do with that. And she’s also the host of the wonderful podcast, taking care of Lady business. If you haven’t heard it, you absolutely need to have a listen. And more than anything, I just can’t even wait to just dig into a little bit more about what the Justice Department is doing, what her focus is, and just her career and what she’s learned and all that. So she actually goes by JJ, and so welcome, JJ,

Jennifer Justice 2:07
thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I love hearing these introductions. I’m like, Who’s that person you’re talking about?

Kara Goldin 2:13
I know, I always tell people I do the outro after the guest signs off, but I’m like, No, I want them to hear because they always start blushing and get a little excited about it. So let’s start at the beginning. I’d love for you to share with our listeners a bit more about your story. And Did you always know that you were going to be an attorney to do always think you were going to work in the entertainment industry?

Jennifer Justice 2:37
No, none of the above. I was, you know, when I was born, my mom was 19 years old. So you know, my sister and I had an older sister. So our family was not somebody who pursued higher education. You know, they were really working class. My grandfather was a logger, people got married really young and had kids, that’s just what they did. And so, you know, it was kind of expected of me to do the exact same thing. But I just, there was something there’s something there nature versus nurture. And I went fully with, you know, nature, and I was like, I want to do more, and I want to be, I want to, you know, break this cycle. And I did really well in school, and I just kept saying, I’m gonna go to college, I’m gonna go to college. And I did, I ended up going from Washington State, I went to University of Washington. And I was the first of my extended family, you know, to go. And so when you do that, though, while it’s amazing and great, you really have nobody to look to around to be like, What should I do with my life, like, everything is open. And so I graduated from college, and I had no idea I didn’t have a job. You know, I’ve been working at the prosecutor’s office, you know, to make money and had to work all through college. And I was like, you know, I went to the counselor’s office. And they’re like, Well, you know, you hear that they sent me on like insurance, sales and wine distribution. And I was like, This is not what I want to do, you know. And so I kept working in the prosecutor’s office, got a full time job and decided to go to law school. I was like, I looked at the TV, and it was like, I can be a doctor or lawyer banker, and you know what I mean, I was like, I’ll be a lawyer. And then I was living in Seattle during like the grunge years and, and I knew some of those bands because it’s a tiny place. And I would go to the shows, and they were like, look, there’s you’re gonna go to law school. Great. All of our lawyers are women, you should do that. And I was like, wait, what? And so I went to Cornell Law School, knowing that I wanted to be an entertainment attorney, which is not an easy thing to get into. Because you just have to know people. It’s not like it’s a really small industry, the music industry, you just have to know people. And so I went to a big Wall Street firm. First, you know, between your second first and second year of law school, you get hired as an associate. They hired me full time. I went and started working there and they knew that I wanted to be in entertainment and they helped me they are She got me interviews, you know, their philosophy was, we’d rather have a happy lawyers outside that can give us business than people inside that are miserable that we don’t help, you know. And so I a year out, I got a call saying this new firm was kind of starting up, and they were looking for an associate that come from my background. And it was called Kotico. Carol Guinan Grothman. And they interviewed me and I knew that I got the job that day.

Kara Goldin 5:28
That is, so that’s so great. So this was all in New York. You all in New York City? Yes. All in New York City. Now, how did you ended up connecting with Jay Z.

Jennifer Justice 5:38
So Jay Z was a very then unknown rapper at the time. I mean, he was known in New York, he was really big, but it wasn’t he wasn’t definitely not global, and definitely not in the United States, like in rap and hip hop, you know, he was known but not like in a in a broader basis. And I had been doing a really big litigation was in charge of the, the team, the paralegal team at Hughes Hubbard and Reed, and we would hang out in what we call our war room, late at night, looking for smoking gun documents, literally going through boxes and boxes, boxes, looking through documents, which we eventually found one. And, you know, by 10 o’clock, we would go get beer or whatever. And like, because we will leave there at like, one in the morning. And, and they were like people out of like Harvard, Yale, they really recruited a kind of all over diversity students, etc. And so there’s just a huge eclectic group of us all within a similar age, because they were still going to like, you know, college within three years. And one of them was a big Jay Z fan and have the Well, I think it was good to CD have reasonable doubt. And we played it every night. And so when I got interviewed, he had just gotten to the firm, and they were like, going through their whole litany of artists. And it’s like, oh, we represent Marilyn Manson, and Sugar Ray and Sinead O’Connor and Bon Jovi, and, you know, all of these, like big at the time artists, and they’re like, Oh, and, you know, we have this young hip hop artist named Jay Z. And I was like, oh, reasonable. That’s like my favorite album. They were like, what? Why? How do you even know who he is? And I was like, Oh, I totally got hired. And so one of the first things I did was clear, like the songs music for hard knock life, which is the album that really put them on the

Kara Goldin 7:25
map. That’s wild. When did you actually go in house then and start? How did that all work?

Jennifer Justice 7:31
Yeah. So you know, I was there at that firm for 11 years, I became partner in three years, I started getting all my own clients. I knew Mark Ronson from hanging out in New York. So he became a client before he was Mark Ronson, and a bunch of other clients. And so I built my roster. I started you know, I did a lot of hip hop Method Man and Redman and a bunch of, you know, hip hop producers, etc. And, and then I did the deal for Jay Z to start rock nation. And he has personal deal with Live Nation. And that kind of took I was, you know, a year for them to get off the ground with Live Nation. And then when they started getting it off the ground, they were like, Look, do you want to come in house, and I was looking for a change anyway. And so that was in 2010, that I started.

Kara Goldin 8:20
That’s wild. And so in addition to Jay Z, obviously, there’s Rihanna. There’s Beyonce at for a point. Lots of incredible, incredible artists and not just clearing music, but some of the deals you mentioned. Live Nation. Yeah,

Jennifer Justice 8:35
I mean, I was never just clearing music anyway. What what people don’t often don’t really know if they’re not in the music industry is that agents are really their main job in in a musician’s career is to book their live shows. And so as a lawyer is very instrumental and doing all of their outside deals in their business terms. And there’s not business people that hand us something and say, Okay, now go do the deal. Like paperwork, do the paperwork. We were literally the business people, sourcing, vetting, you know, business terms, doing the term sheets back and forth, and then doing the long form deals in particular with Jay who never had an agent his entire career. And so when he started all his businesses, I was part of a very small team of three of us that was doing it all and building those and then you know, they would like take off on a you know, they would have a mind of its own. So it was more it was it was really an all encompassing in their business life. And he set the tone he was the first one to be doing these kinds of as an artists were doing these kinds of deals, it was seen as like a sellout before to put your music in a commercial it’s like why it’s a ton of money. You know, all the rock musicians, Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, they would never did any of that stuff. And then none of them had started their own, you know, businesses from clothing lines to you know, alcohol and liquor lines and their own entertainment companies and stuff. Jay was one of if not The first to do that as an artist himself. And so I was part of all those deals.

Kara Goldin 10:06
Yeah. So interesting when I think about that, and, you know, the music industry overall. And, you know, even today we call them influencers. I feel like you guys were so far ahead of the industry as it related to, you know, how musicians get involved. So, yeah, people

Jennifer Justice 10:26
need it like they think the lawyer but that’s not at all like we’re more strategy business development. And we could also do the legal work, right. So it’s, it’s a much broader experience base and, and deal flow and that we had, you know, in general,

Kara Goldin 10:43
so interesting, a little girl from Washington State, right. I mean, it’s just looking back and, you know, connecting the dots. I mean, it’s just absolutely wild. So 17 years, after being there, you decided to go out and hang a shingle and start the Justice Department. So talk about what hole you saw that you really wanted to fill? Well, while

Jennifer Justice 11:06
I was at the firm, before I went in house for rock nation, I just, I was doing a lot of X, a deal deals for the executives. So the executives would get their contracts, and they would get their terms, and we wouldn’t help them negotiate the terms of their contracts. And I would do deals I remember, like, I wasn’t even a partner yet, maybe a year in. And I didn’t deal for a guy Universal Music Publishing. And he got immediately as a senior director as a director or an entry level like executive. And he immediately got offered $130,000. And, you know, we did the deal and kind of got whatever he wanted. And then a few months later, I got and by the way, they were in like an a&r department, meaning they’re the revenue generators, right. They’re the salespeople. They’re the ones who find the songwriters to sign that then make the money for the company. Then I did a deal for some a woman in the same department for senior director and she was offered $90,000. And I was like, wait, what? Why is this okay? And the partner at the time on the thing is like, why are you have a problem with that? I was like, well, because we know that this guy made 40 grand more like, Why? Why are we Alright, with that? He’s like, well, she’s okay with it. It was she doesn’t know that a guy in her department that basically reports to her is making 40 grand more than her. So it’s like, okay, fine, then you try to get her more money. And I did try to get her more money. You know, it was like, met with everything from Well, her husband makes a lot of money, and she doesn’t care. And she didn’t ask for it. And I was like, That is such bullshit. You guys have this knowledge. And I got her 10,000 more dollars. And that was it. So that continued on throughout my career to the point where I got to the C suite level, representing them, and got a woman in Universal Music Group, one of their labels. And we also represented the guy, he had five years less experience, she was offered hundreds of 1000s of dollars less than he was. And when I brought it up, they’re like, how could you bring this up? You shouldn’t even know about this. I was like, we live in a small business. And where you guys love conflicts, okay, so it is what it is. I was threatened, my career was threatened by like, all the people who are running those companies, it was insane. And I’m like, This is crazy. And it still happens to this day, all day long. In every business men are always paid more than women. And, you know, whenever I say to a woman, it’s like, and then they’re like, oh, that’s never been my issue. And it was like, give you I’ll give you six months, you’re gonna find out and every single time I hate being right, but I’m right 100% of the time. So I was like, wait a minute, you know, so I started thinking a lot about it. Like, why are we it’s such a disadvantage, because I wasn’t exposed to a corporate life until, you know, I got out of college and started like, working. So I had no experience other than TV. And it’s like, why aren’t we making the same amount of money? It’s insane. There were no books on it. I went to Barnes and Noble. There were three if you don’t have big boobs were ponytails written by Barbara Corcoran. Nice girls don’t get the corner office 101 and play like a man when like a woman and that’s why Gail Evans not actually resonated with me more. And it’s not like you have to be a man, you can be a woman. But there’s certain things in business that women need to do better. You know, and it’s, it’s like, this is not your family. Okay, your family’s at home. That’s your family. What you should be looking at when people are trying I have heard from all so many women, well, they really need me. They’ll say don’t the second they don’t need you. They’re gonna get rid of you what is wrong? They don’t need you. Then. You know, and also like, well, they don’t really have the money. That’s not your problem. You don’t own the company. That’s not your problem.

Kara Goldin 14:51
Yeah. Can we all have JJ come and negotiate for us? Yeah.

Jennifer Justice 14:55
Because also, here’s the other one. Stop negotiating for yourself. If you are not A skilled negotiator, you don’t learn that overnight. I have learned that over 20 years, I’m very good at negotiating. Like, people get super nervous, I’m clients get nervous, we have to play nice. Nobody you don’t, you don’t play nice in a negotiation, you play nice with your friends. You don’t have to be mean, you don’t have to scream, you don’t have to be rude, but you don’t play nice. Like, that’s how you that’s not when in Business is business. And when people hear that and be like, Oh, I don’t like it and kindness, I’m still being kind, right? It’s still business. And you have to think about it in different ways. Like when people are underpaying you and saying they can’t pay you or making you work too hard or, or not giving you what you deserve. Like think about your actual family, then go you know, what they’re doing is taking away from them. And I will kill for my family. Why are you okay with letting them disrespect your family? Because that’s ultimately what they’re doing? You know?

Kara Goldin 15:53
No, absolutely. So we have so many people who are listening, who are entrepreneurs just starting out and their company, or maybe they’ve already got an established company, then we also have C suite executives and other people who are working inside of corporations, knowing what you know, today about raising money and getting out there and trying to get the best deal for your company. But also, you know, the right partner, what would you say to that?

Jennifer Justice 16:24
I mean, I think you have to understand as a woman, if you’re if you’re a woman, I don’t know if your major bases but but as a woman, you need to listen to other women who have done it before you and take that advice, don’t think that, that you’re it’s going to be different, like men as well intentioned as their advices, they have no idea what it is like, going out there to raise money as a woman to be taken seriously as a woman to be told, Oh, let me ask my mistress or my wife, if this is a good idea, you know what I mean? And so, so much of it has to be listen to your instinct, grow your network, look to people have done it before you and try alternative revenue sources, like, you know, because until venture capital can, you know, catch up to the amount of women like, you have to be more thrifty. And the thing is, is we can do it, because we control the purchasing power. You know, we can build our matriarchal system where we give each other business and only each other business as much as we can. So hire the people where it doesn’t matter up to a man who takes home the bone is at the end of the day, you know, by the products that really matter and, and be a part of that system and embrace that system is really what I think is the major because it’s it’s not easy, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it and stand up for yourself to make sure that people who are giving you money are people that are going to have your back not just that are going to give you money. You know, what do you want out of this in the long term? You know, one of the great things is women actually all the statistics say that women actually make profits. Yeah, a lot of people got rich off of WeWork and Uber but a lot way more have lost their asses. People who put in way too much work walked away with nothing. Like Be careful. You know, profits actually matter. Like having a company if you want to sell it I want a company that actually you know makes money matters and that has values can matter. You know and just make sure you’re always running yourself with those right people

Kara Goldin 18:32
so your focus for the firm is really to help female entrepreneurs executives also talent obviously brands and creatives building their business what’s kind of the core thing that you see people coming to you for that they’re just really they need help with? Yeah, I

Jennifer Justice 18:51
mean, a lot of it is basically life coaching they’re worth it I mean, and it’s giving experience and and they get to see that I’ve had great experience in getting women a lot more money and and it’s negotiating for them so whether that is through I’ve three different businesses under the Justice Department I have a law firm which is obvious the you know, the Justice firm and I have clients like salt and pepper and you know, Amanda shires you know, all female artists and then I have you know, other like, like Madison, Wooten doll doll creative who are like clients of mine who I do like their legal documents, more vendor agreements, you know, salt and pepper, all their entertainment stuff, etc. And then also executives like Sam Kirby, who issues the head of music for UTA or Liezl Copeland, you know, massive in film and TV, like those kinds of women and I’ll help them you know, negotiate their executive contract deals. Then on the other side, I have lady business lady business is where I help female founded companies in whatever statement of work they need on a business side of things right As they feel comfortable for the most part, women in general, I feel based on my experience in branding and strategy and social media, but like the real concrete foundation of any business is what’s boring to us. The legal, financial, you know, partnership structure strategy, those things, if you don’t have those investors are like, what do you have, you have a deck and a dream, you got a brand and a social media following, which doesn’t necessarily turn out, like we all know about engagement rates, etc. You know, if you have a million followers, but 3000 people like your post, it doesn’t matter, right. And so I help them get that structure and formalization that having sat in as I know, you have boardrooms full of men talking about this stuff all day long, because it’s what really drives the value of the company, from the from the core of it, you know, I help them look at it in a different way. And whether that is doing a statement of work for somebody who has a mute needs a music platform, like Taryn to me in the class, or, you know, working with them or Camilla mark is from West born another client, where I help be like a, like a pop up co founder, doing everything from figuring out how to get it in the right women’s hands who are really going to like propel this brand forward to the right investors to you know, the right lawyers, because I’m not the right lawyer for it, like I help find those right lawyers that will then help, you know, done all these deals and know all these people, you know, when she’s getting to series beads, through sale and IPO, y’all and Miss Cole and all female founded Miss gall company that does stuff in lifestyle. So whether that’s helping with Live Nation, whether that is helping them find a bunch of female founders to invest and use that to strategically market, you know, the product and help in you know, restaurant tours, whatever it is be that extra hand where they couldn’t necessarily hire me full time because it couldn’t afford me, but they can do it on a monthly retainer basis, advisory role basis, combination of all of the above, and do it from a business perspective to think through a strategy of like, who you need to know who you need to be in the room with how you structure these partnerships, that literally will help you through the end, like you know, because you set that basis in that tone.

Kara Goldin 22:22
So really a support system. And I think it’s a support system, but

Jennifer Justice 22:27
it’s like a, it’s more than like, I’m a therapist holding your hand. I’m like, we gotta go get this, this is completely within your reach and realm. You deserve this. And you know, I help I do I help legitimize in ways because of my background, you know, and it’s like, I and I am perfectly at home negotiating a $300 million deal with a bunch of dudes on the other side, like something I just did. I am fine with that. I can go toe to toe with them all day long. And so I’ll always go to bat. And nothing scares me like that at all. It’s like a Tuesday, I one of my clients, he’s always like, Oh my God, you deal with this every day. I was like, 10 times a day, like the anxiety of God watching you go through it is too much, you know, when me representing her? And she’s like, Should we ask them like, yeah, of course.

Kara Goldin 23:17
Yeah, you want JJ on your side, for sure. And last,

Jennifer Justice 23:20
but just like I can do this, I can’t do my own social media, I have to hire somebody, I don’t know how to, you know what I mean? It’s like, nothing more frustrating than trying to figure put a video into a certain format, or, you know, managing a bunch of people like HR PR guy, I could never do that. You know, it’s like why I’m very, I know what I’m really good at. And I focus on that.

Kara Goldin 23:41
So what are some of the myths about gender inequality in the workplace that you feel like really need to be exposed?

Jennifer Justice 23:49
I mean, that there’s not a pipeline of us and that we can do it, you know, it’s all these stats. And these are real facts of things like HBs is done, like, a man can be 70% prepared and a woman 130% He’ll go for it and a woman were like, I’m not ready. But on the opposite side, it’s like half of it’s our own fault. It’s the inside of us a little bit we come about it. Honestly, I think it’s literally the way that we are born, our chromosomes are different. But also the other half is the patriarchy looking at it the same way. Like I remember when I was I left there. I did a stint in between rock nation and the Justice Department as Superfly. And when I left rock nation, I was the EVP. And I wanted to be a president. And so I told every recruiter No, no, no, like, we’ve never been a president. And I was like, neither had Obama until he was a president. Who do you say that to a man crazy. And you know, the other thing is that we can multitask very well. And I have boy girl twins are nine. And it is abundantly clear. And I don’t know I don’t want to like you know, stereotype. But the male gender is just not as good at it. It’s just not and that’s my experience. As working as well, where it’s like, you know, and we can do a lot and handle a lot of things. But that’s not necessarily to say we should be taking on everything either, you know,

Kara Goldin 25:10
definitely. So what are the key things like as leaders of companies that we can be doing to really make sure that gender equality is happening in the workplace, I feel like sometimes I, you know, leading hand watching sort of quotas and making sure that people that we’re interviewing, like, I don’t think most women want to be that one person sitting in the room that is on the board, or they don’t want to be a checkbox. And I think that there are definitely qualified individuals for every single role, lots of boards, etc. Yet, I feel like we’ve gotten into this place where we have to do this versus you should want to do it. Right. How do we get leaders to really understand this stuff? Actually, Julia Boorstin, her podcast was just yesterday. And she is the CNBC tech reporter. She’s talked to a number of executives and female executives, she just wrote an incredible book as well. And she talked about that when companies are, you know, really in trouble. The majority of the time they put a woman in?

Jennifer Justice 26:22
Yeah. So they’re the ones who have to, like clean it all up. Right, right. And then when they don’t, they’re like, see, we put a woman in, right? I mean, they don’t do

Kara Goldin 26:31
that, actually. Because they think, well, we better do it. Because we’re hitting the diversity checkbox, they do it because they really do believe that she can do it. But they also think if she can’t do it, then you know, she gets blamed. And I think it’s just wrong on so many fronts. But what would you tell your head of HR or managers that are sitting here trying to figure out who was the best candidate? Well, from an

Jennifer Justice 26:57
executive level, to anybody who gets a contract, I would literally hand them their contract and say, Please give it to your lawyer. Yeah, negotiate this. I had this big conversation with Live Nation actually about it when a woman and she was like, What do you think we should be doing? You should be telling all of your people to negotiate, don’t negotiate for themselves, have your lawyer negotiate? Because right there, there’s a salary right there. Right. And then with the agreements, like my other client, Gretchen Carlson, take out the NDA and the arbitration clause when it comes to you don’t obviously you need an NDA, but excluding for harassment, and any kind of harassment or discrimination, take it out?

Kara Goldin 27:38
No, I think that’s really interesting. arbitration clauses seem to get into more and more contracts today. Can you get around legal,

Jennifer Justice 27:45
you can’t have them. But like I’ve I’ve argued with people female founded companies saying like, well, if it’s challenged, then, you know, because it was passed by Congress, as there’s Gretchen got, and she’s about to get the houses. I mean, the Senate already approved the NDAA. One, and now the house will, but it’s like its application in a legal setting. You know, it’s going to be challenged. It shouldn’t be any company that takes any person to court over that school look like an idiot.

Kara Goldin 28:14
So you can’t do arbitration clauses now. And contracts. No. So even if they’re in a contract from like a law, they’re not

Jennifer Justice 28:21
enforceable. So they’re not supposed to be but this is, you know, Congress, and it’s definitely in the areas of discrimination and harassment. Why are you trying like if somebody’s accused of this, especially if it’s more than once? Why are you trying to hide that there’s not somebody else that can do that job? Really?

Kara Goldin 28:36
No, that’s so so interesting. Well, and I think that there are a lot of things like that, that I think people just need to know about and need somebody like you, you know, sort of thinking about that. So being an entrepreneur, obviously, is incredibly tough. You’ve worked with many along the way and you yourself, I consider to be an entrepreneur as well. You’ve started your own company and done a lot of different things supported entrepreneurs, too. But what’s the worst advice you’ve ever received along the way?

Jennifer Justice 29:08
My the worst advice is literally put my head down and just keep working in someone will notice like men. That means put my head down, keep working for you. So you can go out and get noticed. No, thank you.

Kara Goldin 29:20
That’s so true. I also think that experience is better than somebody who’s just hungry. I think that the people who are hungry, the people that are actually passionate about a topic, you know, Gretchen Carlson, frankly, is one in particular. I mean, she’s somebody who actually changed things and disrupted things because she was really focused on it. And I think there’s a lot of people who maybe had even more experienced than she did, but that doesn’t mean that they’re going to show up and actually create a change. So what have you enjoyed most about doing what you’re doing today?

Jennifer Justice 29:56
I mean, I sleep really well at night like I love helping women understand their worth and train, you know, and getting them more money and fighting for them. And I love it when they I see this light bulb go off in their eyes. It’s like, sometimes there’s a lot of sadness about what they didn’t get for themselves. But then it’s like, you know what, I deserve this. I don’t know why I didn’t think I did. But I deserve this. And I’m that I love that, you know, and I love helping them understand what they can be. You know,

Kara Goldin 30:30
I love it. No, that’s so great. Well, thank you so much for coming on here, JJ, and everybody, have a look at the Justice Department. We’re gonna put it in the show notes and more info on JJ as well. But really grateful for you coming on today. And thank you for all of your lessons and advice. And I mean, just incredibly, incredibly smart. So thank you. Thanks all for listening to this episode. We hope you enjoyed it. And I want to thank all of our guests and our sponsors. And finally, our listeners, keep the great comments coming in. And one final plug. If you have not read or listened to my book undaunted, please do so you will hear all about my journey, including founding, scaling and building the company that I founded. Hint we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks everyone for listening, and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening

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