Trevor Traina: Founder & CEO of Kresus

Episode 426

Today we hear from serial entrepreneur, and former U.S. Ambassador to Austria, Trevor Traina, who is the Founder & CEO of his newest venture, Kresus. Kresus is the first Web3 SuperApp that gives everyday consumers the power to safely and easily accumulate, manage, trade, and enjoy digital assets and blockchain verification all from one secure place. We hear how Kresus aims to improve the overall security of crypto and NFT assets, what it takes to be a serial entrepreneur and more insights from his journey. This episode is insightful and I think you will be glad you listened. Now on #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone. And welcome back to the Kara Goldin show. I am so thrilled to have my next guest. Here we have Trevor Traina, who is the founder and CEO of Kresus. And if you don’t know what Christmas is, you’re going to be very, very excited to hear all about it. But also hear about Trevor’s journey. Trevor is a serial entrepreneur, lives in San Francisco. I’ve known him for many, many, many years. This is actually his sixth technology startup, he’s sold five of them, and successful exits really, really amazing. In addition, Trevor was the former ambassador to Austria, I can’t wait to hear more about that. And today we’re talking about his latest venture creases. And I can’t wait to learn all about what it is and how that really taps into this first web three Super App topic and gives everyday consumers the power to safely and easily accumulate, manage trade and enjoy digital assets and blockchain verification all in one secure place. This innovation could be a significant development in improving the overall security of crypto and NFT assets that we keep hearing about over and over again. And more than anything, I can’t wait for Trevor demystify all of this for us. So, so much to chat about. But welcome, Trevor.

Trevor Traina 2:14
Thank you, Kara. So nice to be with you today.

Kara Goldin 2:17
Really excited to have you here. So first of all, you’re a serial entrepreneur, what or who inspired you to jump into entrepreneurship, if you had to say, one person, or were there, you know, multiple people around you growing up that were entrepreneurs that you just said, this is what I’m ultimately going to do one day?

Trevor Traina 2:39
Well, Kara, it’s interesting, because, you know, I come from a family from a long line of entrepreneurs. So I was sort of aware of that role model influencing me even as a very young boy, but probably like many people listening in, you know, you just sort of know in your heart that you don’t want to work for other people that you either because you want to cut your own path or because you just have this just burning urge to create and build. And that’s something that you want to do, it just has to get out of you. And I always felt that way. I always felt like I had things I wanted to do and create and build myself. And I just learned how to listen to that. I love

Kara Goldin 3:24
that. So and you have a ton of siblings and your family as well. So actually, you have more than I then I always say I have a ton of kids, but you have more siblings in your family. So growing up, did you feel like there was definitely this, this sign that you were like the one that was going to go out and create things?

Trevor Traina 3:46
I don’t know, you know, I’m probably a typical that way that you know, I’ve kind of come from a pretty successful background. And so, in, in my background, a lot of people, you know, don’t work or don’t. But I always took it the opposite direction as sort of like, an intense motivation to be my own success story and, you know, make my own way. And it kind of emboldened me. So I’d say yes.

Kara Goldin 4:15
I love it. So, actually, before you started your own companies, you had a role at a beverage company, of course, that is near and dear to my heart was Seagram. So you started out? That was the first one. What were you doing for Seagrams?

Trevor Traina 4:30
Well, I always say that was kind of my first MBA. So I grew up in the Bay Area. I did my undergraduate at Princeton University. And then I went to Oxford and got my first graduate degree, which was actually in in international relations. Then I moved to New York, and I really wanted to learn marketing. And by luck, I got this job at the Seagram beverage company. And I was sort of hired provisionally as like a Marketing Associate And then I worked so hard, I ended up being promoted as the youngest brand manager in the history of the company. And I always say was my first MBA because brand management, particularly when it’s done at a company like that you learn everything, you know, production pricing, trade promotion, consumer promotion, packaging. And we were test marketing things, we had a mature products, kind of what you call a cash cow. And so I learned about product lifecycle, and it just was like an incredible taste of how to run a business. And so I was there for three years, and then I left to go to Berkeley to get my MBA. And then while I was at Berkeley, I came up with the idea for my first company,

Kara Goldin 5:46
which was,

Trevor Traina 5:49
which was called compare net, I founded it with with a partner, and comparing it was really a business at the early stage of the internet, where there was a lot of stuff for sale, but you know, not a lot of tools to help you pick products. And so we felt like people wouldn’t be sort of confident buying online, until they felt like they’ve really done their research. And there weren’t comprehensive databases of products, you know, if you want to buy a digital camera, a DVD player, a flat screen TV, whatever, like, how did you know which one you want it or what was right for you? Or what was a good price? Or how reliable they were? And so, uh, really, with no knowledge and no experience, you know, and sort of starting it as like a business school project. I just figured my way out, how do we build some databases? How do we get stuff on the internet? How do we find consumers, and three years later sold the company to Microsoft, and it became msn.com/shopping, or the shopping channel of MSN. And there were a couple really valuable lessons I learned that I would offer to any entrepreneur. The first is the most encouraging, which is, you don’t have to go to MIT, you don’t need to be experienced, you don’t have to have an advanced degree, anyone can start a business or a company, all you have to have are two things. The first is the stubbornness, or the unwillingness to fail, no matter what gets thrown your way. That’s like fortitude. And you can learn that you don’t even have to have been born with it. But that’s the most important ingredient. And the other thing is to, to know what you need to know and learn it on the fly, meaning like, you don’t have to know everything, but when at certain key moments, you have to figure stuff out quickly. I always like the analogy of that movie, The Matrix, you know, you you see, you know, Neo, the main character, you know, he sort of steps into a helicopter, and he’s like, I need to download a program for how to fly a helicopter. That’s what starting a business is like, you don’t know everything you never can. But you know, you have to know what to figure out when you need it. If you can do those two things, you can be successful.

Kara Goldin 8:21
Well, I think what you’re talking about too, is seeing around corners, right, and being able to anticipate because a lot of people don’t have that skill set. But I think incredible entrepreneurs do, right. They can see around the corners, they make predictions, their predictions might be wrong some of the time hopefully they’re right. Most of the time, but I think that’s that’s such a key key piece of that. Yeah, and

Trevor Traina 8:45
I think that’s actually what caused me to found creases. Greece’s is my steel, company. And creases is like a super app that’s available in the App Store that anyone can use to enjoy digital collectibles, NF T’s crypto, whatever it is that is that, that I could see that that moment would be coming when non crypto bros like just normal people want to dip their toe into the blockchain.

Kara Goldin 9:15
So how would you describe Croesus to listeners today? Like if somebody’s saying, hey, Trevor, what are you up to today? I mean, what what would you say is sort of the key thing like why should people pay attention?

Trevor Traina 9:28
So Kresus is kind of two things for anyone who already owns anything on the blockchain, any cryptocurrency any NFT any collectible creases is the best place to keep your stuff. So as they say, you can go to the app store and download the creases, you know, crypto Super App, but you can move things in there and it is the safest and the easiest place. And I’ll give you one example. So you know, I observed that these current law wallets and crypto tools, they’re really, really, really complicated. And even Frank, kind of scary. Like, even my friends who know a lot about web three, they’re terrified of their of their crypto wallet, that they’re going to lose their recovery phrases, they’ll get locked out forever, that they’ll put something in the wrong place that they’ll send something to the wrong address, and it’ll be lost, right. So Christmas is kind of like Goof Proof, it’s very easy to download. But it gives you all the education and the tools so that you won’t make any mistake. And it’s the only crypto wallet or wallet anywhere in the whole world that is totally recoverable. That means no matter what happens to you, we can always get you back in whether you lose your phone. Even if you lose control of your own email, you will get you back in. And yet it is what we call non custodial, which means it’s only your assets, we don’t touch them, we can’t move them, we can’t loan them to someone else or take them from you. You’re in complete control, which is also really important in this current moment where we’ve learned some of these other solutions have been secretly lending out your stuff or whatever. And so it’s like for existing crypto people, it’s the very, very best tool. But for anyone who wants to learn about the blockchain, or maybe accumulate a little something by, you know, dip a toe, it’s the only tool that’s so easy that anyone can download it, fund it, maybe buy something, try something we even are the first place that lets you mint your own NFT very easily, like a photo of your kids or your pet will give you five NF T’s for free. And you can gift them or keep them and it’s I always say to people, like do you ever remember the first time you sent an email? Like that was a pretty momentous moment for you? Right? Yeah. And people are gonna say thanks to creases, I minted my first thing to the blockchain my first NFT because five years from now we’re going to be minting our birth certificates, our our passports, our driver’s license, our will, it’s going to be a whole new world. And we’re preparing people for that world.

Kara Goldin 12:23
So were you looking for this product? When you decided to start this company? I mean, was this it? Was this something that you just couldn’t believe that wasn’t out there already? Yeah, like,

Trevor Traina 12:35
like you were saying earlier about seeing around corners. I’m actually old enough. I remember the beginning of the World Wide Web, you know, like before AOL, and it was very analogous to the blockchain. So were people using it? Absolutely. But it was really, really, really, really hard. You had to have a dial up connection, a local ISP, Prodigy, and it was scary and difficult. Then AOL came along, they did two things. The first is they made it really, really easy. And most people went to just get an email address, right. And they then they also showed people there’s a whole lot you can do stock quotes, horoscopes, online shopping increases is the same, right? It’s so easy that anyone can now have a web three wallet that they can buy stuff for put stuff in. But we’re also showing you cool stuff around the blockchain, not not even our stuff like new Nike projects, cool stuff you can do with gaming, just to educate you and we have education, you can men will even give you a web three address of your own for free. So we’re also like, opening your eyes to what’s possible.

Kara Goldin 13:50
So how do you see it impacting the larger cryptocurrency market? Overall? I mean, how is that something? I would imagine that you that you are looking closely at?

Trevor Traina 14:03
Yeah, so I think there’s a lot of speculation right now, and some of that is going to go away. But there’s a ver there, right? I mean, there’s a reason for Bitcoin, there’s a reason for Aetherium they’re so important that they really will change things and there’s a reason for NF T’s. For for listeners who don’t know, NF t just simply means non fungible token, which is kind of fancy language for meaning. There’s only one and it’s verified. Like I always laugh, like my mom is like, I don’t get the blockchain like, why is it important, or you know, and I’m like, it’s a universal ledger. Imagine like an accounting firm in London with a giant chalkboard. And every time anything important happens, every transaction every contract, some guys get up on a ladder and they write it up there where everyone can see it. It can’t be denied it can’t be ignored. Word or lost or forgotten, that’s the blockchain, it’s just saying that, you know, anything important is now known to everyone. And that’s like a really, that’s an important milestone for all of us. That was smart contracts means everything you do, can be registered and verified and can’t be, you know, fraudulent or, or denied. And, and an NF T is sort of a verification stamp that says, maybe you own this thing, or this is your will, or this thing is unique one of one and it’s yours. And that could be for a ticket to an event, it could be loyalty points from an airline, or it could be a lot of things.

Kara Goldin 15:46
So when you look at competition in the market, you’ve obviously been through many, many other startups and and watching what people are doing, and I think it’s web three is, is moving very quickly, changing constantly. How do you view competition right now? I mean, do you feel like it’s still so early that, you know, competition actually just makes everybody better? Or do you feel like there’s a lot of confusion still around what the consumer really needs.

Trevor Traina 16:20
I think there’s a ton of confusion and it does remind me of the early days of the worldwide web where it was, you know, prodigy and Lycos and Infoseek and excite and at home and so like the current wallets, the first generation wallets, I always say it’s like mushrooms that sprung up after a heavy rain, they kind of all emerged overnight. A lot of them are for very limited or specific reasons. And they’re complex. And they were built for, you know, the 300,000 Crypto bros, you know, that knew how to use them. But they were never really intended for the mass market. You know, the the leading crypto wallet is called meta mask. And I love to demo it. And I’m like, look at it, you know, if you download it, the screen is all white with only a few words in black. And it looks really primitive and complex. And if you download creases, it’s colorful, it’s engaging, it has lots to look at and education, you can swipe and scroll, and your stuff is there. And it can be organized how you want it and is the difference between like DOS and Windows like creases is a next generation tool. So it’s really built for, for you know, the future.

Kara Goldin 17:38
So I know when I was doing research on creases, the big thing that I saw over and over again was safety. And so up until now, it’s just kind of been the wild wild west out there on on these NF T’s. But how does creases actually help people just feel safe?

Trevor Traina 18:02
I think it’s a great question. And we all a hear these horror stories of people who are hacked, or they lose their stuff or whatever, or the the converse, which is, you know, to be safe people have like, you know, put these hardware devices, you know, buried in their yard, and they’ve split their recovery phrases into tattoos on 10 friends, and you know, and it’s like, that’s no way to live, you know, not 21st century. And so Christmas starts with like the very best security and it’s by the way, the Christmas app is free to download. And so we use a variety of techniques. And we don’t hold your passwords, you know, those are they’re yours, not us. But they’re on your device and in the cloud and recoverable with a variety of ways your face, your mobile phone number, your email. So as I say, we’re the only app where you can never get lost locked out, you can never lose your access. But we don’t touch any of it. And then Kara this is kind of a first but we’re going to I’m announcing it with you, we’re gonna launch in about a month, a product called the vault and the vault is like if you hold really serious assets and you need like hardware level security without the heart. And that is another layer of security with a technology called MPC marry to a smart contract, and then these other protocols that will protect you from ever being hacked. But that is with you in your pocket, you know, not home on your PC, and therefore convenient and accessible. And that product will be $25 a month. And so it’s sort of two different ways to approach it. But all of it, you know, is the very, very best safety on the market.

Kara Goldin 19:59
So Oh, when you look at NF T’s today, I think you’re absolutely right. It’s got a reputation of being the bro place. And and so do you see that changing significantly? I mean, since even in the last year in terms of demographics, do you see young millennials getting in Gen Z years? I mean, where do you see the biggest growth happening?

Trevor Traina 20:23
Oh, yeah. So, you know, last week, Sotheby’s sold an NF T for more than $6 million. And, you know, that’s now that’s not you know, at the height of the of the fervor, right. So there really is a market for high quality, NF Ts and fine art, you know, galleries like pace galleries Sotheby’s, Christie’s there will always be a market for very, very high quality and fts. But then, you know, you look at Starbucks with their Odyssey program, you look at Nike, like a lot of really big brands are using NF T’s in really clever and innovative ways. They’re not necessarily expensive, but they may allow you to earn things or unlock value, or they may be access to things. And I think we’ll see tons of innovation there, your loyalty points will become NF Ts, tickets to events, you know, you go to the Superbowl, and you get this ticket with like a hologram on it that, you know, prevents forgery. In the future, you’ll prevent forgery by you know, something being on the blockchain, and then it can’t be stolen or duplicated, or, or it’s just a better technology. So it’s inevitable, we’ll be collecting things in a variety of ways and holding them in our wallets. And then beyond that, you know, your important documents and other things will all migrate to the blockchain as well.

Kara Goldin 21:48
So I’d love to jump into entrepreneurship a bit, because obviously, you’ve been a serial entrepreneur, and you’ve sold a companies but and not all in the same vertical, either different types of companies, obviously very curious, Trevor is is, you know, obviously very curious and jumps into things and tries to solve these big problems. And, but I’d love to understand, like, how do you measure success for any of these companies? I mean, when do you know that you’ve like, done it, because being an entrepreneur, you’ve got the highs, and you’ve got the lows? But when do you sit back and say, you know, we’ve really done it, like, we like we’ve nailed it. We’re super successful, and, and maybe at that point, you decide you’re gonna sell it. But, but I think it’s, it’s always a challenge, right? Because there’s always something to do and more things that you could add on to it and create and change. But when is success there?

Trevor Traina 22:56
So I think being an entrepreneur is means weighing a whole lot of different options and opportunities, right? And there’s like, what motivates one as a creator, or someone who wants to have impact? And then what motivates one as as a investor, or someone who’s beholden to investors who’ve given you money and who expect to return? So into the first question. I love to create things, and then to take them to the place where I get feedback, unsolicited, right? So I bump into a friend or I hear from someone and they’re like, you know, I tried your product, I loved your product I encountered you know, you know, my last company was called, if only and if only was like a magical marketplace for experiences that benefited charities and causes. And it was everything from extraordinary experiences to everyday one. So extraordinary might be like, tennis with Andre Agassi or ballooning over Mount Everest. And everyday might be an hour of chocolate making with a chocolate expert or petting a zebra at the zoo after after hours, right. And I remember with my last company, I heard from a woman I had never met and she said, I bought on your platform, an hour of chocolate making. And it was actually the daughter. She said, You know, my mother bought this. And she invited me and my friend and we spent an hour together making chocolate and she said, My mother cried. And she said she cried, cuz it was meaningful time spent with you know, her child, etc. And I was like, wow, I had impact. And then that banding in ways I never thought right I’m sure you’ve experienced with you know, your products, people who say to you, I love your product or it’s you know, Have one a day or I look for them at the store, whatever. Those kinds of things make you feel good, you know, like, wow, I. So I like that moment when it happens for someone, you know, even with creases, the feedback I’ve gotten is like, I was so surprised how easy it was to download, right and to install. And I was like, I worked for weeks and weeks to make that streamline to make that easy for people to not confuse or confound them. And to get that little piece of feedback that just makes me feel good and makes me feel like I was really doing something right. But the second part is the investment side. So I always say building a company, it’s like inflating a balloon, you know, you’re blowing it as large as you can. And you want to tie that balloon off before before it pops before it bursts. So there’s that healthy tension, like how much air can I fill this balloon with? You know, because we’ve all seen so many promising startups that ultimately failed, either they ran out of money, or their market changed, or they didn’t change or whatever. And so with each of my businesses, there’s been that question, right? And it’s usually around, do I sell it? Do I keep going? Do I raise more money, do I. And in pretty much every case, for me, it was sort of like either, I think I’ve taken it to the farthest place, I can take it. And maybe now I need an acquirer or a partner that has either more resources, more more expertise, or just more audience a bigger audience, right. So, you know, I sold my last company to MasterCard, you know, they have millions and millions and millions of customers. And they were going to take it to a place I couldn’t. My first company I sold to Microsoft, same thing. So and that’s always part of the calculus. Right? But it’s but it’s a hard one.

Kara Goldin 27:03
And do you think it sounds like especially the consumer feedback is such a key piece of this when it especially in the early days, but I think you still keep popping your head in to really understand what the consumers are thinking now in order to make that decision. Right? You never walk away. I’ve had I’ve had founders in early CEOs say to me, like at what point can I get out of doing a lot of the day to day, and some you can’t walk away ever, right? Totally walk away. Hopefully you hire a good team to be able to do the different things. But it’s not like you found a company and then you step back, you’re you’re constantly looking for ways to improve.

Trevor Traina 27:44
I tell people who are thinking about starting a company, I’m like, the highs are the highest highs you’ll ever know, the lows are the lowest lows you’ll ever know. So be sure you’re up for the ride. And I say, when you start a company, it’s like adopting a puppy, or or adopting a pet. It’s like, however long is the lifecycle of that pet, you are committed to it, you’re on the hook, that’s your responsibility. And you can’t just say, You know what, I’ve had enough where you can’t walk away, because that thing relies on you for its very existence. So you have to be cool with that, like I I’m a dog lover, you know, I can’t imagine getting a puppy and then not loving it forever. But that’s what that’s what your business is like. And to your last point, Kara. I’m always asking, always testing, you know, it’s like, anyone I meet, I’m showing them something and saying, Do you like this or not like this? Is this easy or hard? Does this make sense to you? What if you read this? I remember with my first company, we were in a building near the ballpark here in San Francisco. And we were looking at some messaging I took like five pronounce down to the leasing agency. And I talked to all the sort of secretaries there. And I was like this or this, if I showed you this, what would you think it meant? Like anyone is a test audience like everyone, you know, you know, the checkout person. And that’s how you that’s how you learn, right? Yeah,

Kara Goldin 29:16
definitely. What has surprised you the most about creases since you you’re just getting started? And getting a lot of this feedback, but and obviously you’ve had people who are saying it’s really great. You probably had doubters, who initially were like, oh, what’s Trevor doing now? I mean, who cares that he’s had all these successful startups he you know, they still want to doubt you right? And but what what has been the most surprising thing about this about creases for you? So far that gets you really excited?

Trevor Traina 29:49
Well, I actually think it’s the ability to mint something to the blockchain, right. So some people have bought some crypto or maybe they bought it in Ft. He or whatever. And those people I think appreciate the convenience of creases. But almost no one has ever put something on the blockchain. It seems almost undoable like that would be so complicated. How would I meant to the blockchain, right. And so when you download creases, we just say, give us access to your camera roll, and you can take any picture. And you can doctor it up, and you can add a title and you can judge it a bit. And then you meant it that it takes, you know, a few minutes, and it’s minting minting. And then all of a sudden, you have five copies of this thing that will live literally forever. It’s like putting something in a time capsule or immortalizing it. And it’s you know, it seems like a trivial thing. But I can’t tell you how many people have said to me like, that was really cool. It was like sending my first my first email. So that’s the first thing. And the other thing that surprised me is, you know, creases. The king was a real person, he lived around 550 BCE, and King creases, created the first fungible coins. So every coin had the same amount of gold. And so you could spend any one like any other, he created currency, which like change the whole world, it didn’t just usher in commerce, but the arts, even even people say democracy came from this innovation. And it used to be everyone knew who creases was, but a lot of people now don’t know the story of King creases. And like, I mean, Walt Disney made a cartoon out of creases, like it used to be everyone knew, but no one could spell creases, the original way or the recent. So I was like, I’ve just kind of spell it phonetically, like, KR E. Su s, because that’s how it sounds, even though the original spelling was way more janky. But that was my other sort of surprise.

Kara Goldin 31:52
I love that. So last question, What’s the best advice that you’ve ever received?

Trevor Traina 32:00
Oh, my gosh. That’s a tough one. I mean, you know, I think it all goes to the sort of do what you love, and the sort of life is precious. And I mean, I feel like it’s on every mug and poster. And it seems so obvious. But, you know, I was talking to a friend yesterday. So that was Sunday, who’s very, very famous and very, very successful, both, you know, in career and monetarily. And I was like, Do you want to hang out today? And he said, You know, I have so much work right now that, you know, I’m just literally buried whatever. And I said to this person, I was like, you know, what is your life plan, right? I mean, the privilege of success is to be able to spend time with your family, and your friends and whatever. And it’s like, you’re gonna look back, dude, and go, was I successful? Right? And so I mean, I just say that to people over and over again, it’s like, are you really spending your time on what matters? Like we we all like, fail to see the forest through the trees. And it’s sometimes it’s important to be reminded, like, in, you know, however much money you’re making, or not making, or you know, whatever it’s like, doesn’t matter. It’s like, are you spending your hours on what’s really meaningful? That I think that’s the advice.

Kara Goldin 33:21
That’s terrific advice. So Trevor, thank you so much. So creases, everybody will have all the info in the show notes too. But if you’re listening right now, go to creases on the in the app store and download it for sure. And, Trevor, thanks again for sharing all of your info and knowledge with us and really appreciate it.

Trevor Traina 33:43
Oh, care. I mean, I think what you’ve done with your podcast is phenomenal. And I’m like, honored just to play like a small part in it.

Kara Goldin 33:51
Oh, thank you. Thanks so much. And thanks, everybody, for listening. Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would, please give us a review. And feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin. And if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen. Or pick up a copy of my book on daunted which I share my journey, including founding and building hint. We are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And thanks everyone for listening. Have a great rest of the week, and 2023 and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time, you’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight? Send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening

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