Amanda and Karen Zuckerman – Co-Founders, CEO & Chairman of Dormify
Episode 188
The show is twice as nice today with the amazing mother-daughter duo, Karen and Amanda Zuckerman! Karen and Amanda co-founded Dormify when they found themselves frustrated over the lack of cool and stylish dorm decor options. So they created their own ultimate small space decorating destination. In today’s episode, this inspiring team talks about how they’ve grown Dormify through a community of brand ambassadors, and lots more. Listen to this latest episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow for a midweek boost of inspiration!
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Transcript
Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to just sort of make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control, control control.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara golden show. So join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, its Kara golden from the Kara golden show. And I’m so excited to have my next guests here, very, very thrilled. I’m a huge fan of their brand. And I can’t say that I was using their brand when I was in college. But I’ve definitely used it for my own kids and my nieces and nephews as well. And it’s a brand that you may or may not be familiar with. Hopefully you’re familiar with it. But if not, you have to order from it. It’s called dorm of phi. So if you’re sitting here stressing out about what do you get for your kid or your friend’s kids or whatever for their dorm room. I mean, it’s just the most amazing sight. And we’re so excited to have the co founders here, Amanda and Karen Zuckerman, who are actually a mother and daughter duo, which is so so fun. And Karen has Karen is actually the co founder and chairman now and the daughter, the daughter, Amanda is the co founder and CEO. So I’m thrilled that they came to chat with us a bit. And we’re going to learn so much from them. But just a little bit of background, a little more background on Dharma five. So they’re a direct to consumer small space decorating venture for college students and people looking to decorate their apartments as well. I got one of those too. And when Amanda was preparing to go off to school and 2009, she and her mother, Karen, were frustrated with the dorm shopping experience. And there wasn’t one easy solution. And that’s when they decided we need to go figure this out. So 12 years later, they are co founders and as I mentioned executives at dorm of phi and I am so thrilled to hear everything from them. And and just I love hearing the stories behind the brands and how they got started. But all of the learnings for sure. So welcome you guys.
Karen Zuckerman 2:48
Thank you.
Amanda Zuckerman 2:49
Thanks for having us.
Kara Goldin 2:50
Yeah, totally excited. So tell us a little bit about the beginning years. So, you know, mom and daughter team What? Like, what were you What were you doing? Karen, what like let’s start with you. What was your background? Like? How did you think about even started with here? Yeah, I got here.
Karen Zuckerman 3:12
Well, I when I was 24, I started my own agency. So a creative agency. I started myself. I was a graphic designer, I went to Penn State. And I just started doing freelance work and started to get clients and then built this business over the last really 33 years. And I actually sold that business in 2018 to W PP and I’m recently retired from that business and back into dorma fi but at the time when Amanda was going off to college, I was full force into my creative agency running that business. You know, I was a creative director, I worked really closely with clients, and Amanda and I were out shopping for her dorm room. And we really couldn’t find what we were looking for because Amanda was like she had style and she wanted something different. She didn’t want a bed in a bag. And so we went from shop to shop looking for, you know, a lot of different things and we couldn’t find it all in all in one place. So I’ll let Amanda kind of jump in here.
Amanda Zuckerman 4:24
Yeah, I mean we were honestly just standing in Bed Bath and Beyond and you have to buy twin XL bedding for college. That’s the required bed size and for a lot of people you’ve never heard of twin XL before and it’s just like so foreign. And I couldn’t believe that there wasn’t beds out there bedding out there that within this size that was really cool. And just like you want to buy a cool pair of jeans are a cool jacket or a cool pair of shoes. I wanted to call comforter and it just didn’t exist. So I in Bed Bath and Beyond stood next to my mom and said I can’t believe this isn’t something that are already exists, we should go design our own line of bedding. And then she said, Okay. Things like every mother out there would say that but she did. And what happened next was we decorated my dorm room. And of course did my side of the of the room and my roommates side of the room, and it looked really great. And we ended up just curating pieces from all these all these different stores. And at the time, that wasn’t so easy, because we were not really shopping online. And just going to all of these brick and mortar stores, I based my entire room around one pillowcase that I liked, and it was very inefficient. So in addition to like the product that didn’t exist, it was also just a very, it this is like such a life moment for students going off to college. And I’m the oldest child in our family. So no one had been there before. And I was really looking for like that older sister advice that you want when you’re moving into this very important transition. So the guidance, the tips, what to expect, and all that was missing. So designed my room, it looked great, we realize that no, are many other students and their parents out in the world. And they couldn’t do this themselves. And we decided, after my freshman year to really pursue this idea and first started with, what is this brand going to be? And what is it going to look like? What is it going to sound like? What is it going to feel like? Obviously with my mom’s business in her agency and building brands for 30 years, that’s naturally where we started. And I think not everyone that has an idea goes first to the brand, but we knew that that was important. And we started with a content site. So similar to how glossier started with Emily’s blog, and just content about skincare and beauty. We started talking about dorm decor and college life, and even just what is going on in a college student’s day to day just to have that content out on the internet and get proof of concept that students cared about what their dorms looked like, because it was 2010. And Instagram was not what it is today. I wasn’t posting on Instagram, I was not sharing my outfits. I wasn’t sharing my room. So we just didn’t know. And I’ll pause there because we we really started as a blog. And then from there developed product.
Kara Goldin 7:29
So you started at while you were going to
Amanda Zuckerman 7:31
college. Yeah, we started out while I was still in school, which I mean, makes sense, right? Because I’m a college student, I have college students all around me as my focus group. And, you know, I started with friends of mine, writing for this blog, and we turn them into style advisors, which is what we called our brand ambassadors. And that network of students just grew over time from being my immediate friends, to friends of friends, and then quickly a group of strangers that we’re all like the army that was going to help us launch the brand. But yes, it started while I was in school.
Kara Goldin 8:06
That’s so fascinating. So were you just picking out people who had like the best rooms? I mean, how did you find these? I mean, that was like, the early days, I guess of brands that are anchors and tell them anyways, like how did you think about it? I mean, did you sort of like, Did you guys post somewhere to find these people? Or were you just like, literally, like walking down the hallway and say she has a cool room, I’m gonna ask her like for thoughts or
Amanda Zuckerman 8:32
it was organic. It was really organic, like it started with, okay, who’s a friend of mine from high school that’s really style oriented, or has a really great writing style. And then I would look at all these different networks between my friends, my mom, and her friends and their kids. And then it would all just be like this network effect of friends of friends. And really quickly we, you know, of course, started posting things once we had a social presence, but it was very organic and grassroots to get started.
Kara Goldin 9:04
I love it. Do you guys still have that program? Today? We
Amanda Zuckerman 9:07
do. And it’s not really based around contributing to a blog, because Gen Z consumes content in different ways. But we still have our ambassador group, and it’s gone through a few different evolutions over time, just depending on like, what is relevant at that given moment. But today, we have tons of these content creators out on campus who are you know, filming tons of content for our social channels, hosting events on campus, giving us product feedback and participating in many different initiatives that the brand is hosting.
Kara Goldin 9:42
I love it. That’s That’s such a I mean, it’s so smart. And I bet there’s so many students who wanted to kind of show off sort of what they knew about this stuff, too. Especially. Yeah, you know, especially when you’re just getting that first room. Done For sure. So, so So interesting. So when you were like you went from actually having product than on the site, or sorry, you went to having product on the site from having just the blog, what was the transition? I mean, how did you think about that? Were people asking you for suggestions on products on where to buy these things?
Karen Zuckerman 10:23
Well, we kind of knew that that was the eventual goal. So we were starting out as a blog to become kind of influencers in the space. And really, so people knew we knew what we were talking about. And in the meantime, behind the scenes, we were within the agency, we were incubating the brand. So we created the brand, we started working with, actually, some of the people that were on my team at the agency, we started finding manufacturers. And it was that year that we just hired our First Person outside of the agency, and Amanda was in school. So manda was in school, I was in the agency, and we had one full time person at the time. And that’s how we started, we just like went door to door, trying to find manufacturers who would help us make product. And honestly, we didn’t know we were doing. And this is very funny, because people always think that you have to know what you’re doing when you’re starting. We had no idea like I was a creative director, she was a student, we were about to make textiles. Everyone said to us, you need a merchant, you need a merchant. We’re like, we don’t even know what a merchant is. So funny. But be we were because we didn’t know. We didn’t know what we didn’t know. We just went out there and did it. And we just said, No, we can do this. We can create a brand we can make product, we can develop something. And that’s basically how we started, we found someone who would make product for us. We designed it. And we started making product and we started selling in 2011.
Amanda Zuckerman 12:04
Yeah, my junior year I had dorm of I product in my
Kara Goldin 12:07
room. That’s amazing. What were your first products that you guys did, I was just
Amanda Zuckerman 12:11
gonna say that we like the transition was actually Yes, like we dove right in but also took a calculated approach. So the first product line that we had was posters for the wall. And we had this really cool collection. That was every single letter of the alphabet. And they were all printed, made to order. So there was no like inventory commitment up front, we were able to start selling something without having to invest in it. And we had just invested the time in creating the artwork. But people loved it, they mostly would buy their initials, and we had the prints available and every single color and every single piece was almost like an art print. So they would put their initials on the wall, they would put their school name like PSU. And that’s where we first started. And then, of course, visited the original problem that we were trying to solve with bedding and designed a line of dubay covers and made our own, you know, exclusive patterns and prints that were going to be printed on those dubay covers. But of course, like knowing nothing about the textile industry, there is a minimum fabric requirement to get an order place. So we took those patterns and cut that fabric into window panels and shower curtains and bed skirts and sheet sets and pillowcases and anything that we could use that pattern for so that we can get the product made. So that was really where we started with our own dorm of I branded product. And then we curated and bought from other brands to really create that one stop shop, which was, you know, our original vision. So what do you think was
Kara Goldin 13:53
the most surprising thing about starting your own? business? I mean, there’s so many aspects of that question. I mean, first of all, mother, daughter team, you were a student at the time, which I think is actually, you know, not only awesome on so many levels, but also you were sort of living you were literally living the brand. I mean, you Yeah, thought about it every single day. You were like you had an instant focus group on sort of what people were thinking about and how often Yeah, even they changed things out or whatever. But what do you think was like the hardest thing in the beginning when you were starting that you just sort of had didn’t really think about?
Amanda Zuckerman 14:35
Mama let you answer because I’m sure there was things that starting your second business you were still surprised about? Well, and it was
Kara Goldin 14:43
good to I mean, honestly, you hadn’t really logged but when you went into physical, physical goods, you know, yeah, that’s, that’s a whole different ballgame.
Karen Zuckerman 14:51
Yeah, totally different from my initial business. But in a way, one of the things that I think is a crossover is just like marketing. And making original making something original and special. So building a brand that had a voice, and it connected with people, and that no matter what is I think key to a great brand. And the product then has to align with that, right? So we had to get, we had to have really good product. So we were really conscious of like the way it felt, you know, the patterns and things being different. So I think what was the most challenging, you know, like I said, was actually getting the product made? Because you didn’t, we didn’t know anything. So that was a challenge. And then that was early ecommerce. So you had to build a website, that website actually had to work, you had to market it, like there were all of these things that were happening at that time, that are nothing like what their hat, like what’s happening now. For example, now we’re on Shopify. Back in the day, I think we built our first website on Magento, which was way, way too big for what we were. And it was very complex. And you know, you learn so many things, just going through that process of, you know, one step at a time, you get better after each thing that you do. So the whole thing, even till today is a learning process every day, we’re like, oh, wow. Oh, we’ll do that better next time. Still, every day.
Kara Goldin 16:26
Do you feel like it? I mean, obviously, you’re you’re I don’t think you guys have like vacations during August. Right? Typically, I mean, that. I mean, that you ended that whole thing you’re doing vacations on sort of, you probably get better deals like you’re getting that you’re doing the off season? Because that’s your primetime. Right? I mean, it’s during right before school. And, you know, this, I can only imagine the customer service things, if something if FedEx or whoever you guys use ups doesn’t show up in time. And I mean, I can’t my first child going to college, and you know, why isn’t it here? I can’t find it in some ways. So how, what do you? I mean, it is a big moment when people are going off to school and they want their kids dorm room? I don’t know, it’s probably ranked up there with babies and weddings. I mean, it’s it’s right. I think so too. And I think it’s people are probably really, like they’re on high alert for,
Amanda Zuckerman 17:28
if very emotional bear on anxiety,
Kara Goldin 17:32
right? And so how do you deal with that? Like, how do you deal with, you know, having a business that is so in many ways, high touch with the customers,
Amanda Zuckerman 17:42
it’s, I mean, I think that’s such a big portion of our success is how connected we are with the customer. How high touch the service that we offer is, whether that’s free design services, where we hop on a video call, or work with one of our customers in a pop up shop, to just design your room from start to finish for no cost at all. Or going above and beyond, above and above and beyond when it comes to that last mile of receiving your product and making sure that move in process is as seamless as possible. So, you know, we’re not scaling our customer experience team in a way that’s not via a human interaction, the people that we bring on to that team have such an important role in our business. And you know, they have to be part therapist, part designer, part, Assistant. And it’s a really important role. And you know, that’s something that we take really seriously and every single negative comment is responded to, and handle it in such a careful way. So that we’re, you know, turning around that experience, however, it might not might need to be turned around. But I think that human interaction is so important. And I touched on our pop up shops briefly. But we have been growing that strategy over time, because we’ve seen a lot of success in showing the product in a physical space and allowing a customer to come into a brick and mortar location with their roommate and with their parents and meeting a expert stylist who is a junior or a senior in college that’s been there before. And while it might take time and you know, it’s a two hour experience in our store, they leave remembering that experience. It was such a defining part of their transition to college. And I think that the group as a whole really feels prepared not only with the product, but like what to expect and all of the anxieties that they might have. So I think just In conclusion, our customer experience team, the content that we’re sharing on social media, whether it’s about mental health and homesickness or How to do workouts in your dorm room or how to of course, decorate. We’re really speaking to the customer about all of the things that they’re experiencing. outside of just the product itself.
Kara Goldin 20:12
I love it. And so you talked about pop up stores, but you have, these are your stores were how many locations Do you guys have.
Amanda Zuckerman 20:20
So they’re just season all we open for the summer time between May and August. And this past season, we were open in New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Dallas, and Chicago. And our New York showroom is actually in our office, I’m here right now. And it’s like an appointment only space. But we’ve been opening these pop ups during the summer, since 2018. And we’ve been, you know, expanding on the locations that we’re at every single year. But so far, so good.
Kara Goldin 20:49
Oh, I love it, it’s such a great idea to have that because I certainly would have wanted to go to one and having everything in one location, I think it’s super, super smart.
Karen Zuckerman 21:01
Also, one other thing with the pop ups and even what Amanda was talking about, with the it being a milestone moment, a lot of times people aren’t thinking about what it means to a mom. So this, this, like interaction of choosing the dorm room and the decor of what your child is going to be living in, at least in their freshman year, and hopefully beyond. They you know, it’s like a bonding moment. So there’s some times that the mom or the Father, you know, the parent feels like this is the last chance that they’re going to have this kind of experience with their child. And to be able to have that in our store is kind of cool. And we get to see the you know, the interaction and we get to be a part of it. It’s really special.
Kara Goldin 21:46
I love it. No, I totally, totally get it having three out in the column one headed and into that direction. So do you think there’s more? more girls are your I, I would say your customers are probably the mothers, I’m guessing. But you know, the parents. But what’s the split? I’m so curious between girls rooms and boys rooms?
Karen Zuckerman 22:11
Well, we obviously started focusing on the girls, for sure. But we’re Yeah, we’re moving into adding more guys,
Amanda Zuckerman 22:20
I was just gonna say that we have been very focused. So starting with that female college student, we know there’s a big opportunity for guys. And we do have some product for guys. And we made it a goal of ours when my younger brother went to college that we would have some boys decor and bedding specific for that audience. But we’ve been growing every year. And you know, we’re really focused on making sure that we’re giving the right experience to that customer, whether it’s the parent or the student, and it’s a really important part of our strategy for next year.
Kara Goldin 22:53
I love it. So very cool life. One that that went off to school and is is at two lane and on hiatus right now I know, I know, is on, you know, on hiatus from the flooding. So hopefully he’ll be back very, very soon. But lots and lots of fun. So you started this business. Amanda, when you were in college, would you recommend that to other college students? You know, what was your feeling on that? I mean, I think on the one hand, actually just having this hands on, sort of opportunity. I think so often, I talked to a lot of students when I’m speaking on campuses, and I think it’s really hard for them to kind of visualize what some of the different issues are. And you definitely were like trying to find people when you’re on deadline to do something. And you know, you’re you’re thinking about all the dotting i’s and crossing T’s when a lot of students aren’t really doing that. And what what’s your sense?
Amanda Zuckerman 23:56
I could go both ways on this question. And it, of course, always comes up when I’m talking to students too. So I’ll just paint both scenarios. So I think that if you have an idea, while you’re in school, you’re always at risk of someone taking your idea and doing it faster than you or better than you Oh, so if you really believe in it, and the timing just works while you’re in school, pursue it because, of course the like, first mover advantage, but also you have a lot of resources on campus to support you. And whether that’s like an Entrepreneurship Center or pitch competitions that you have easy access to and just alumni networks if you need to raise capital. There’s so many resources that I think are helpful and you can I think today really like weave in some of your own entrepreneurial curiosities into your schoolwork. So if you’re taking a class where you can, you know, apply that it’s the best of both both worlds. So that’s the one hand. But I would also say, for those that are interested in entrepreneurship, or really intrigued about starting their own business, you know, I encounter a lot of students who are searching for their idea and like forcing it to happen while they’re in school. But if I was in that position, I would advise them to learn as much as they can, and you know, soak it all up while they’re in school, it’s the only opportunity that they have to have that freedom and really learn about such a wide variety of different topics and meet different people and do different internships. So I would just hate for that experience of doing internships and really taking advantage of your four years in college to get disrupted by like, feeling like you want to start a business but not really having something to grasp on to.
Kara Goldin 25:54
I totally agree, I tell people like don’t force the, the idea, right, you have to you have to let it come to you and and allow your curiosity to really lead.
Amanda Zuckerman 26:06
Yeah, it’s so much easier today, you know, 10 years later, to actually start something whether you just pop up a Instagram profile, or Tick Tock profile, and then start selling stuff through an affiliate fashion or, like, there’s so many ways that you can just start something. So it’s really about how you handle it. Like maybe it’s something small while you’re in school, because you’re learning but you know, you don’t need to full fledge launch into it.
Kara Goldin 26:34
No, I think that’s really important. And when people hear I think about you, and sort of your story, too, I think it’s like you, it really, you have to have a partner, you have to have an idea, I think probably somebody to balance you along the way too, because I think so often one of the reasons why I wrote my book was to really share with people that I think entrepreneurs and is getting has gotten kind of this, you know, there’s a bunch of unicorns, and it just boom, like just happens. And there’s no hard stuff along the way. And I think it’s just, it can be lonely along the way. And I talk to entrepreneurs all the time, and some college students to have started businesses, I’m like, you know, take some deep breaths and relax a little bit and try and you don’t have to go super fast. I mean, you guys, we’ve been doing our business for 16 years, you guys have been, you know, doing your business for 10. Right, a little over 10. And so it’s how many years is that? Right? 10 years? I
Karen Zuckerman 27:37
mean, yeah, that’s right. Like, yeah,
Amanda Zuckerman 27:39
yeah, like I wasn’t really working on it full time until after I graduated. So I double majored I was at a sorority, I did all the things I wanted to do. I didn’t let that interfere. But you know, once I graduated, then, yeah, I didn’t do it.
Kara Goldin 27:54
So interesting. So how did like, How did COVID and the pandemic kind of affect you guys as a business? how challenging was it for you?
Amanda Zuckerman 28:04
It was, I think the uncertainty was the most challenging part of it, just having to plan for so many different scenarios. And I think like, the, we both look back, and our entire team looks back on the pandemic. And I can’t say that, it like it was it wasn’t negative, it was positive, because we learned so much. And we had to pivot in ways and I was like, uncomfortable and had to learn new things. and problem solve in a way that we had never been faced with. So in a lot of ways, it was such a great learning opportunity. Um, the business itself definitely was like, there was new customers that came in, who were just decorating their homes or their home bedrooms, and there was more than just that college customer that was shopping. So we launched things like a dorm, a fire at home hashtag to make sure that it was clear that, you know, you could design your home bedroom, whether you’re in high school or not going back to campus, and our product really worked in any of those spaces. And we really listened to what our customer wanted to hear from us in terms of our content on social too. So, you know, this that move in time, August 2020, was definitely interesting. We were hit with a lot of roadblocks and obstacles with just how, you know, shipping carriers were performing and everything was delayed so and the warehouse or entire
Karen Zuckerman 29:44
warehouses didn’t have employees, everything was a problem.
Amanda Zuckerman 29:47
Right? So, you know, our entire team was on customer service and dealing with all of the moms who weren’t getting their packages because ups wasn’t delivering. But you know, we Push through, we managed to work remotely and develop a whole new line of products remotely. We did a photoshoot not in a real dorm setting like we normally do, but we built that dorm setting in our office, and we kind of just rolled with the punches. But we still grew. So you know, home decor was still relevant for a lot of people during that time. And we were there for anyone that needed to make their space feel more like home.
Kara Goldin 30:30
I love it. And then obviously, so many schools did open up in the spring. So your schedule kind of changed a little bit from what it normally was. Yeah,
Amanda Zuckerman 30:39
we’ve got a little bump in January.
Kara Goldin 30:41
Yeah. Which is really, really interesting. And then you also have a business you touched on it, where it’s an at home and apartments business. So you’re continuing the journey with that customer. It has to be on that. So how is that business going?
Amanda Zuckerman 30:58
It’s been great and it actually goes younger than the college student to start and we have lots of teens who are in middle school in high school that love dorma fi maybe their older sibling shopped with us for college and especially with tik tok just being what it is, a lot of teens are transitioning, they’re like little girl room, it’s their big girl room. So we’re starting. We’re starting young with the teens and dorma VI and them they grow into a college customer. And, you know, the campus apartment segment is also a really important one. Because, you know, over the four years at school, you’re changing your bed size at least once and you need to find new bedding and of course your style changes. You have a shared living space with other roommates and you might need some bigger furniture items. So we’re really growing our furniture category for both that campus apartment and post grad apartment world and introducing a lot more in that category and just new product categories like seating and beds and like real furniture items. So that’s all being tested right now. And we’re introducing care packages this fall as well so that parents can send care packages to their students friends can send them to friends and just something else to come back to dorm if I for once you’ve already moved in.
Kara Goldin 32:26
I love it. That is absolutely so so smart. I’m very excited for that I have to go on and and shop from that. That’s, that’s really, really great. So tell us a little bit about where people can follow you. You mentioned tik tok. You mentioned Instagram and obviously your website. But I would love to hear from you. Where do people get more inspiration about your brand and really from you guys and hear more about what you’re doing?
Amanda Zuckerman 32:58
Yeah, so definitely follow dorma fi at dorma fi on tik tok and Instagram. tik tok is a lot of really entertaining videos that are super fun. And then we have tons of inspiration on Pinterest and on Instagram. And then on our website, like you said, doormen, fi comm we actually design full rooms that are fully shoppable. So all the inspiration, you can actually make it your own and customize it for yourself, but then add to cart and send it straight home. But then, you know, we’re both on Instagram and on LinkedIn. So
Kara Goldin 33:33
I love it. So so great. Well, thank you to you both were coming on. It’s been a total pleasure, Amanda and Karen, thank you for you know, sharing a lot more about your brand and how you built it and just some of the challenges that you’ve had and where you guys are headed. And it’s just such an amazing story. So thank you so much for coming on. Yeah, everyone for listening. And we are here every Monday and Wednesday with amazing stories of founders and incredible brands and just people sharing so much with us to help us learn and inspire us and definitely give this episode five stars and subscribe to the podcast and all that kind of stuff. And hopefully you guys have had a chance to follow me on social at Kara golden as well. And also, if you haven’t had a chance to buy my book, it really digs into kind of the, the warts and all of building a brand and I would love to hear from all of you as well. So thank you have a great week, everyone. before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book on Onto comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book calm and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time, you’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight? send me a tweet at Kara golden and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara golden thanks for listening
