Ariel Garten – Co-Founder & Chief Evangelism Officer of Muse

Ariel Garten 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to just make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show, though, join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I’m so excited to have my next guest here. Well, first, I’m going to show you exactly what this is, is the Muse s. headband, which stands for soft and I was familiar with MUSE before, because I met Ariel Ariel, I don’t even know if you remember this. But I met you at TED a few years ago. And it’s such a cool product. And she was so nice to send me one of the bands and I tried it. And I have been using it every day since it’s so amazing, and so calming. But let’s get into that a little bit. Let me give you a little bit of background on Ariel garden. It’s she is the co founder and chief evangelism Officer of MUSE. And we’re gonna chat with her more about not only her awesome product, her new high tech headband, which tracks your brain activity during meditation to give you real time feedback, but it also uses advanced EEG technology to track how well you focus, sleep, and recharge. So that’s what I really loved about it. Because there’s definitely days when I’m thinking, Oh, my God, I’m going in a million different directions, am I really focused, and this will definitely tell you for sure. Ariel was a fashion designer before I love all these stories about how people were doing something totally different and had an incredible idea when she had actually worked in real estate as well. But then she worked as a neuro science researcher. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that and who she worked with, too. But I think more than anything, when she started thinking about brain and the mind, and how do you calm yourself? How do you really focus on just being better, that’s when she decided that she was going to start her company and it’s now a leading innovation company. She is a leading innovator in the emerging field of brain sensing technology. So like I said, she’s been featured at TED, over the years to and then she came out with the original Muse band, I think 2014 is that right?

14? Correct. It’s amazing.

So we’re gonna hear more about aerials journey. As you know, the Kara Goldin show is not just about not just about interviewing CEOs, but also founders journeys, where did they come from? What how did they think about things and then of course, hearing about terrific products and services that are out there. So welcome so much. So excited to be here? Or have you here, I should say, Ariel? Sorry,

Kara. It’s a joy and a pleasure to be here. I’ve been so excited about those interview and to reconnect with

you. Very exciting. Where are you at today?

I’m in Toronto, Canada,

you’re in Toronto. We’ve interviewed so many people from Canada, like what’s in the water there? Because there are so many innovative and entrepreneurial people from Canada. So it’s, it’s a, it’s great to have somebody else from Canada on this as well. But so let’s, let’s go back to the beginning. So I always like to say, or hear a little bit more from our guests about who they were as a kid. Did you always know that you’re going to be an entrepreneur? What did you think Ariel was going to be doing?

It was definitely in the blood. So my parents were entrepreneurs. My dad was an entrepreneur in real estate. His parents came over from the war with nothing, they moved every single year buying one house than the next and really creating their own destiny. And my mom was an artist. So she’d always be painting these beautiful, huge canvases with all sorts of imaginative ideas from nothing just from her own mind. So from both of them, I learned that you could create whatever you want in life, that it’s up to you to do and then having a regular job is pretty boring and a waste of the you know your time on this planet. And so from a super young age, I was committed to doing something creative understanding how the world worked and forging my own path, hopefully in some way that was gonna make the world better.

So you grew up and went to the University of Toronto and you decided to go into fashion design, what were you doing in fashion design and what sort of drew you to fashion design.

So I have to say I started in fashion design when I was about 16. As a fashion designer before then, you know, wearing cool different things everyday to school. But at 16, I made my first T shirt that I looked at and said, Hey, I think somebody else wants to buy this, like, I think somebody else would wear this. So I made a few of them. I took them to the stores in Toronto, Hawking my wares from store to store to stores took them on consignment, I didn’t even know what consignment was at that point. But I’m like, Sure. And from that moment, I was a designer, I continued on creating the line. At 19, I went to work at the club, Monaco design studios, one summer in New York, took my stuff around New York City, had 48 stores say no to me, and to store say yes. And then all of a sudden at 19. I’m a designer in New York City. At the same time, I was going to school for neuroscience, I figured open pay, you know, going to school for fashion is interesting, but if my interest was also in the sciences, and so you really need to pursue that academically and really, in a linear pathway. So as in school for science, particularly neuroscience, understanding how the brain works, while at the same time exercising both these creative ventures in clothing, as well as, you know, really financially viable businesses in the clothing space. So, in 2002, I did a little experiment, opening my own store really sold my lawn across North America was successful as a designer unsuccessful as a business person at that point, because the business of fashion is terrible. The economies of scale just do not make sense. If you want to pay normal wages to have your garments created.

I just want to stop you there. So when you say that, it was it was terrible, like what did you learn? I mean, you’re starting to talk a little bit about that. But what did you learn about that industry that you didn’t know,

I went in not knowing anything I went and just thinking, okay, clothing is cool, I can make things that are beautiful, that are fascinating that people want to wear. Probably my first biggest lesson was about product market fit and really listening to your customers. Because prior to that I was just a headstrong young kid, just making stuff I thought was cool that I assumed other people would find cool as well. And it’s once you put something in the market, that you really understand this relationship between the products that you’re creating and the consumers needs and how to very specifically fulfill them. And in clothing, it takes on multiple dimensions, because you have to have the fit, right, you have to have all of these really subtle aspects correct to really match the expectation of your customer and their needs and their size. And then on the so that was my product market fit lesson. On the business side, it was really an understanding of how to run your profit and loss statements, what an economy of scale looks like, how the business could be successful when I was running it my own from, you know, one small store when I could run it with interns. But as they started to reach an economy of scale, and a skirt was costing me 75 bucks to make to manufacture because it was complex, there was no way that I was going to be able to retail it in the US for the right price. And so I was discovering that my dress makers, my manufacturers, everybody was getting screwed along the supply chain. And that as a business model, it was really difficult to be functional. Because everything became commoditized. So quickly, it was just it was a question of price. Yeah, it’s

really, really challenging. And then obviously, seasonality and things like that, I’m sure were just really, really tough. And like you said sizing, and I mean, it’s it’s tough. I mean, look, the beverage industry that I’m in is a tough market too. But I look at just the number of SKUs and things like that, that you deal with. And wow, what an education though, for you to be able to jump into that and, and you’re still smiling.

I’m still smiling, I had to come up with you know, 30 different products every six months for your new line to turn over in multiple sizes. At least it wasn’t food, at least nothing was going bad. And I was not famous enough for people to actually know what was consistent from season to season. So I could certainly recycle designs and people wouldn’t realize that, you know, the season has passed and they’re still ordering the same goods. So you know, there are advantages that I can play with because of my size and lack of prominence. But God is it difficult.

Yeah. So, so crazy. So you were going to school while you were doing this? Yeah. Or had you graduated at this point.

So I started my line when I was 16 years old. So I went to high school I went through university all having my line of clothing. At 22 I tried retail establishment in Toronto. At the same point I was starting to do my post grad work so I was starting to work in research labs, all simultaneously, I truly believed I could do it all. And at that point in my life, with no kids with no, you know, financial responsibilities on a home or partner, you know, without any of those things, I really could do it all, because I had all of the time in the day to construct the life that I wanted to have to construct the businesses, I wanted to have to pour every moment into it. It’d be two in the morning, and I’d be cutting dresses, and literally the next morning, be working in a research lab. And I was able to manage all of those aspects, something which I could not possibly do now with a husband, a child, another kid on the way in my tummy. You know, it’s fascinating the timing of it, and how that really led to my ability for my entrepreneurship entrepreneurial journey to be so successful.

Wow, that’s wild. So 2005, you opened up your own private practice as a therapist? And what did you learn as a therapist that you think kind of led to what you’re doing today,

to pick up on the clothing piece, I left that behind around? Earlier in my early 20s, my father convinced me that this was never going to be a great business model, which was very difficult to understand, as you know, a 22 year old who was in the newspaper isn’t doing coolest thing I could imagine. Somehow I listened to my father and abandon that went on to my postgraduate training, further down the road of neuroscience and trained as a psychotherapist. Because I was still really fascinated by the brain and how I could use an understanding of the brain and self to help people improve their lives. So that’s what moved me down into this track. I then opened a private practice as a therapist with the hope and desire to help people untangle the knots that were in their head to understand the processes and the stories that we have inside of our brains that hold us back that limit us the beliefs that we create, that really hinder us because I was lucky enough in my growth, to be able to have a very quiet inner critic, to not be held back by thoughts of I’m not good enough, I’m not capable enough to not be held back by insecurity. But I definitely understood the other side of it, I more than tasted perfectionism, you know, I knew what it was like to be incredibly anxious at school, hoping to do well at it. And then throughout my training, was able to take these skills and help people untangle these pieces in their own life. And meditation was one of the tools that I was using as a psychotherapist to help my patients, my clients, that’s one of the things that you’re trained in. And I was a terrible, terrible meditator. Because of course, if you heard I had multiple things going on at any moment in time, and the idea of, you know, stopping my mind for a moment seemed antithetical to me, it seems scary, not only was actually hard to do. And so it was, through my time as a psychotherapist that I started walking down the road of building muse, a meditation tool to help you learn the process of meditation.

Kara Goldin 13:10
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Ariel Garten 17:58
So definitely my experience in fashion and my discovery of, you know, the need for product market fit in that very tangible way helped in the creation of MUSE. So I started creating Muse by working in a research lab with Dr. Steve Mann, he is one of the inventors of the wearable computer, and himself and my co founder, Chris a mini we were working with this early brain computer interface system as part of my neuroscience studies and, and experiments. And I stood back and recognize that the system that we’re using that was able to give you real time feedback on your brain and let you know when you’re focused and when you’re relaxed, that that could be actually very helpful to people to give them insight into their own mind. And because in my psychotherapy practice, that’s what I was trying to do everyday give people insight. And I was trying to teach them to meditate to focus and relax, and it was unsuccessful. The penny kind of dropped with my, my, who became my co founders, Chris, Trevor Coleman and myself. And we recognize that we could take this as, you know, technology that was really a bunch of wires in the lab, and turn it into a tool for meditation. But in order to do that, we had multiple challenges. You know, one was the technological challenge, which Chris was able to master as an incredible electrical engineer, you know, creating something that was going to get good signal quality and work effectively, every time we had the experience design challenge, which Trevor who is actually quite a seasoned experienced designer, was able to manage giving people these beautiful experiences of themselves. So it really wasn’t artistic experience of your own brain during meditation. And then we had the Consumer Product Market Fit fashion, you know, sensation on your head sense of self that it created, that I was able to help and support with my own background, as well as my background in neuroscience, helping people understand what actually goes on in the mind. So just ended up being this unusual magic combination of skills that came together to create this product which wasn’t possible before. Somebody was only technical or only product focused or only experienced design, because it really required all the pieces.

So that was in 2009. Is that right? When, when your first product, first product

come out in 2014, we started the company in 2009, a lot of years to actually create the thing and hone and refine it to the beautiful experience that it would be,

I love it. And the name of the sort of parent company is called interacts on for those of you who are looking it up, but again, the product is called Muse. And now the newest product is the Muse S, which is, as I mentioned, super, super great. So how has your product changed from the original? I guess, what have you learned about this consumer over time?

Sure. So in 2014, we came out with a brain sensing headband that helps you meditate that was in Best Buy. So I mean, that’s about as at the vanguard as you can get 2014, we were telling people that you could meditate using this thing that was going to give you feedback from your brain. And it was ending up in, you know, standard consumer electronics stores. So it was a really big journey of education of the consumer that this product exists, this category exists. And it was incredible to first get out there because we very quickly had amazing feedback from people saying, wow, this really helped me meditate. I’ve tried to meditate many times before unsuccessfully. And now I know what I should be doing. And then we started to hear people’s feedback about how it was helping them in their life, reducing stress, anxiety, depression, etc, etc. And at that point, we knew that we had something. And that was the time to start refining it improving the signal quality, improving the fit, improving the experience design, that’s when we were able to get you know, significantly more investment to help us really take what had been a proof of concept and create something that was going to be a really robust consumer product. So the first product that we came out with MUSE one, what it did was it gave you real time feedback on your brain during meditation. So everybody knows meditations great for you. But meditation is really hard to do. Your brain is kind of bouncing all over the place, and you don’t really know what it’s supposed to be doing. So what Muse does is it shows you it lets you hear the sound of your mind while you meditate. Hear when your mind is Stormy and bouncing all over the place and bring you to this place of calm. And then you hear your brain is calm. So it’s reinforcing you that yes, you’re doing it right, you’re in the state of focus meditation, you’re doing it. And then at the end, you get charts, graphs, scores, things that show you moment by moment what your brain was doing. So that was the first product that we came up with. And then as we refined that, we were able to add additional sensors with our next device muse to that gave you feedback on your heart, your breath in your body to expand to different types of meditation. And then the meantime, our muse community is growing. And then what we started to hear from our users was that they were using it as they were falling asleep, to help them go to sleep. Because when you do a meditation practice right before bed, it helps to shut down your discursive mind and helps you disengage your brain to fall asleep more effectively. So from there, we took that feedback and began building Muse S, which came out first and 2019 with the specific intention of building a product that was going to help you sleep. And we already had EEG sensors on your forehead PBG sensor that tracks your heart rate breath sensors. And we recognized from there, we could actually create a device that could track your sleep basically, as effectively as a sleep lab could but in your own home. But that sleep tracking wasn’t enough that really, who cares how badly it says you slept that doesn’t help you. And that in order to really help people sleep, we created this beautiful set of experiences, that guides or walks your brain into sleep, to allow your brain to shut down and fall asleep more effectively. And then because you’re wearing the device throughout the night, if you wake up in the middle of the night, it will wake up with you. And then bring back in the same content and experience that helps you fall asleep in the first place to help you fall back asleep. So we’re able to create this incredibly powerful tool for sleep.

That’s incredible. And what do you like, when you were you and I talked about this a little bit even before we started recording. But what do you think was like the hardest? You’re way ahead of where the market was? And obviously there’s many other meditation apps out there. But what was kind of the response when you were going out with your product? I mean to the initial investment, I guess you’re you had raised 18 million initially to start Muse is that right?

Yes. So investment came in bits and pieces. So you know, our first investment actually came from chadman Tang at Google. He was Google’s Jolly Good Fellow and his mission in life was to To create world peace, and he met us at a conference, we did our first pitch, and he said to us, you are going to help me find world peace in my lifetime. And he’s now nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, and he will be nominated probably every year. I don’t know if we’ll ever win. But he really believed in our mission. So that was an incredible, you know, incredible step forward that we could get this money from somebody who believed in us. And then we walk into other VCs offices in Silicon Valley and show them this product, and show them the technology. And they’d be like, Oh, my God, this technology is unbelievable. Like, you guys are great entrepreneurs, what’s the killer app, and we would tell them, the killer app was meditation. Now this was like 2012. And they’ve literally laugh us out of their office. And lo and behold, in you know, 2020 2021, the killer app is without a doubt, meditation, hundreds of 1000s of units sold to meditators, you know, now we’ve had people who never who are now meditation teachers, because they learn how to meditate with MUSE. And the very same VCs, now use Muse and talk about it.

That’s so wild. So what do you think, from a I have for Gen Z years, and I always, you know, talk about how this is a generation that is so much more in touch with I think millennials started to be much more in touch with their mental health and and I think, frankly, got other generations Gen Xers and you know, boomers and more in touch with kind of how their brain is reacting to everyday life, the importance of sleep, all these things that maybe they were touched on, but I mean, now you’re measuring it, and you’re proving it out in many ways. But I feel like Gen Z. Today is a generation that is so stressed on on so many levels. And what have you seen with this product? And how, how can this product really help not only Gen Z years, but other generations as well.

So the cycle for stress starts, we feel it starts in our body, but it really starts in our mind. And it starts with a thought that we have, which then creates an experience of anxiety in our body, which then signals to our brain that there’s something wrong, which generates more thoughts about the thing, which creates more experience in our body, which then tells our amygdala that we should really pay attention to this thing, because it’s really dangerous, you know, whatever it is being stuck in traffic, the email that came in that says that our boss wants to talk to us. And so it literally stress literally attaches your brain, your amygdala to the source of the stress and doesn’t let you let go of it, because it makes it incredibly important, the most important thing in your life right now. And so that makes it very difficult for us to disengage in stressful thoughts. And it leads us to hyper create a sense of stress around things that we generally feel are benign, but that our brain attaches to and it’s like, oh, no, you know, I’ve got a stain on my pants. And then you can’t stop thinking that you’re going to an interview with a stain in your pants with the stain in your pants, whereas nobody else notices nobody else cares. So with meditation, what we’re able to do is to observe that we have a thought arising and to disengage from the thought, to not attach to it to not give it importance. And we might observe that we have a sensation arising in our body, but we don’t freak out about it, we don’t start saying Oh, no, I’m feeling anxious, and then start getting anxious about our anxiety and about the thought that’s creating the anxiety. And so we’re able to really shift our cycle of stress and anxiety, by both not engaging in the thought, by training our amygdala to know Hey, you can shut down now everything’s fine, we don’t need to pay attention to this. And by breaking the cycle of anxiety sensations in our body. And so, Muse has really helped literally hundreds of 1000s of people do that, to teach them what it’s like to move your attention away from a thought to put it onto something neutral, to be calm while you remain with that neutral stimulus, and to move forward in your life. So it’s been an incredible honor to be able to help people do that and really understand the process of their brain and how to undo it.

That’s amazing. And the business model for this, obviously, is the purchase of music. Is there. Is there a subscription program or is there something that is that from a business standpoint, what have you learned about the economics of this?

Sure. So the economics of a piece of hardware is very difficult, you know, are the device is quite complex or bomb costs are quite high, but we’ve been working to get them down. So the device runs about anywhere from 250 to $399 Depending on which version It is and you know how much electronic complexity is inside of it and how we’ve been able to optimize our supply chains for each of the different devices that we have in market. And then the problem is that when you provide a device to somebody, they pay you once, but you keep providing a service, ostensibly forever. So you know, we have an app that needs to constantly be updated to every single standard on every single, you know, Apple, Android, Samsung, etc, with every single update. And then we feel compelled to create continue to create better content and better experiences, because we’re innovators, and we just can’t help it. So we have a team of, you know, at any point 50 to 75, people who are continuing to support these experiences and create for them, I said, to accommodate for that we have a subscription, that’s not mandatory. And the subscription gives you access to some premium content, which includes a library of hundreds and hundreds of guided meditations. And this amazing new feature, which we created called biofeedback plus, that allows you to use music biofeedback, on top of absolutely any piece of content. So you could be listening to your favorite YouTube sleep meditation or your favorite calm meditation, and then get your real time biofeedback on top of it, and then your stats on your brain, heart, breath and body.

Well, I absolutely love it. And it’s, it’s such a great, it is such a great product. I think, too, that the I was thinking about this, too, I think like the two step process of it, for me that there’s definitely apps out there that you don’t actually have to have a device, but I think it sort of sets me into play, if that makes sense. Like being able to have something that I’m, you know, checking into in some way that it’s, it’s, there’s something about that, that I think it’s it’s, it really is helpful for me to be able to kind of focus and relax and and be in the moment. So I don’t know, I’m sure somebody has told you that as well. But I think it’s just for those that have never been able to kind of get into a meditation app that’s out there that are others that are out there. That’s what I think that is so unique about what you guys are doing to what do you think is like the key thing. Being an entrepreneur, you’re, you’re a serial entrepreneur, obviously, you’ve started, you know, in a couple of different industries. So what do you what do you think has been the most challenging and kind of something that you didn’t know? You didn’t know, early on?

There are so many challenges. I think part of why I’ve been successful is my ability to be optimistic through each of the challenges, and to be the appropriate amount of naive to the difficulties of it and savvy. So had I walked into this thinking about all of the things that would have gone wrong, there’s no way I would have ever done it. So you know, I know that the title of all things, Cara right now is undaunted, yes. And that is an essential quality, to be able to walk into something that’s really hard, that’s very difficult, and to be able to say, I know that whatever comes up, I can handle it. And it might be difficult, it might be scary. But you know, fear is just a feeling. And I can move through whatever it is I can find the resources, I can find the mentors, I can find the employees, I can find the support, to either move through any obstacle or around any obstacle. And it was that mentality that allowed me to really start a company that most people at the time told me was crazy. You know that that really didn’t make sense in other people’s minds. But I could see so clearly, and I could see the need for so clearly. And it took a certain amount of patience. But to me, you know, it’s been a decade, over a decade in this journey. I see you smiling you you you know, how can take Yep, yeah. But it’s never felt long. Because when you’re doing something that is actually right for the world, when you’re doing something that people want, that’s going to help and support the world in a positive way, you will invariably find people who want to help and support you along the way. And so it’s very easy to build a business that’s just based on economics and is going to you know, create some advertising dollars for somebody and people will get excited about the the money and the greed associated with that. But you’ll get a lot more support for a business that’s actually going to be doing good in the world. And it might take longer to get there. But the support that in the satisfaction and the financial reward that you’ll have at the end is going to be even greater and deeper.

I totally agree. And the fact that you’re focusing on health and well being and in doing something as you mentioned, that can actually be useful to people. I think there’s no better time to be doing such a product and And it’s a it’s definitely something that I know we are going to be airing this in time for the holidays. It’s a great holiday gift. And super, super great. Well, Ariel, I really appreciate you coming on and talking more about your journey and about the product and sort of the stuff that you’ve learned along the way. Where can people find out more about Muse and also about you and your journey?

Sure. So you can find out more about music, choose muse.com ch o se musc. There you can find our product Muse too, which helps you meditate as well as the Muse S, which helps you meditate and helps you sleep. And I do have to say it’s really effective. We just had a study that demonstrates that using the Muse s improves sleep quality by over 20%. So that was incredibly gratifying. Not only were hearing the feedback, but the science is proving it out. And if you want to find out more about me, you can follow me at orielles musings on Instagram.

Amazing. Yeah, you have a great Instagram too. So it’s it’s really, really fun to watch you. So thank you so much for coming on Ariel. And we learned so much about your journey and and I think more than anything, what I believe is so important for people to know is that it’s possible to go and jump industries, it’s impossible to start from nothing and create something. But it’s not easy. It’s not easy. Being an entrepreneur, as I always say it’s, it’s a choice. You know, it’s I think there’s too many people that think entrepreneurism is about being the next unicorn, there’s very few that are that just snap their fingers and wake up. In fact, I’m not sure that there’s any that wake up to be a unicorn, it’s there’s a lot of things that go on along the journey that I think people should know more and more about. So hopefully everybody is learning by coming in and listening to our podcast with so many great guests like Ariel. And hopefully you’ll go in and give this episode five stars as well on Apple or Spotify or your favorite platform. And you can also follow me on social channels at Kara Goldin with an AI. And finally, if you haven’t purchased my book, definitely, it’s on Audible. It’s on Amazon. It’s called undaunted, overcoming doubts and doubters. Definitely pick up Muzak’s. It’s so great and so soft and wonderful. And, of course, everybody grab a case of your favorite case of hand tear that I have up here. It’s super tasty. I’m drinking the cherry this morning. And thank you everyone for listening. We’re here every Monday and Wednesday, and very, very excited to be having you as listeners and subscribers. So thanks everyone have a great rest of the week. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book calm and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening