Eve Rodsky: Author of Fair Play & Unicorn Space

Episode 374

Eve Rodsky is a change agent! The best selling author of Fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space plus the documentary Fair Play – all of which are super terrific. Eve has made it her mission to engage people on the topic of the age-old problem: women shouldering the brunt of domestic responsibilities and the unequal emotional labor and “invisible work” in relationships as well as how this is a critical hot-button issue that needs addressing.
She shares in this episode more about her journey, her books and projects and what we can all be doing to create the change needed. So much to be inspired by in this conversation. On this episode of #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be,you just want to make sure you will get knocked down but just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I am so thrilled to have my next guest here we have Eve Rodsky, who is the author of multiple books, you may have heard of the book fair play, which actually is an incredible book. But her newest book, which came out a little while ago is unicorn space and it is absolutely amazing. Unicorn space reclaim your creative life in a too busy world. Just to give you a little bit of background on on Eve. She’s also an attorney, and did a documentary film called fairplay which is absolutely super terrific with one of my friends Jennifer Newsome. And she is engaging people on the topic of the age old problem, women shouldering the brunt of domestic responsibilities, and the unequal emotional labor, and invisible work and relationships, as well as how this is critical, hot button issues that needs so much addressing for sure. So I’m super thrilled to be having her on today to talk about all of these issues. And also just to discuss further her journey and all about more than what we are able to read in the book. So welcome, Eve. Thank you, Kara for having me. Thank you. I’ve known about you for a long time through Seth and your wonderful beverage hence is always in our refrigerator. I cannot drink water plain. So literally, I was just drinking when this morning is either hinter iced tea. So very happy to be here. Well, thank you, I appreciate it. And your husband, Seth is awesome as well. So very, very excited to finally meet you. So let’s start at the beginning. Where did all this thinking come from Eve that? Obviously you are you’re an attorney as well, you’ve been super busy, you’ve got a family, you’ve got a great husband, but where where did this piece come that you decided? I need to put this into a book and really start having this conversation? That’s such a good question. Because you know, I’m sure you didn’t wake up in your third grade. What do you want to be when you grew up work? Karen said you want to be a serial entrepreneur.

Eve Rodsky 3:07
I did not think I was going to be an expert on the gender division of labor, as you so beautifully said in the intro of my bio. But, you know, in fact, when I when I’m Gen X, and so I was resolutely not aware of gender. I was told that I could be anything that any that anybody else could be that women had opportunities, reproductive freedom, opportunities to enter male professions at rates that we had never seen before. So I remember getting to law school and Elizabeth Warren was our orientation teacher and she asked us what do we want to do with our law degree? And I legit thought Kara that I was going to be like, I think I said I was going to be a senator from New York and and the president United States. And I wasn’t going to give up my dream of being an MC city dancer. So it was this. I had this boundless energy at 23 that I was going to be smashing like, you know, every glass ceiling, one after the other. And really well you asked me about my story, my story comes in because when I look 10 years later, the only thing that I was smashing that I can legitimately tell you that I was smashing would probably be like, peace. You know, peace for my toddler, Zach. while breastfeeding, you know, a newborn baby. Working as a lawyer. I wasn’t president but I like my job but I was negotiating maternity leave. When I was coming back for my second son. They took away all my direct reports my corporation, they told me if I had to pump breast milk, I needed to bring a battery pack because there’s no outlet in the broom closet. And so I was at the lowest point in my life being completely abandoned by my workplace and my dreams. And then on top of it. fairplay starts where Seth starts abandoning me He from being an assuming that I was going to be the she faults in our household. The default for literally every single household and domestic tasks are for my family. And so the book starts when I’m having a breakdown over blueberries over a text us and me that said, I’m surprised you didn’t get blueberries. But I think carry you know, it was a lot more that day on the side of the road when I did cry over this tax. I’m surprised you didn’t get blueberries. It wasn’t about the fact that I think he was assuming I was fulfiller of a smoothie need that day. Smoothie needs. It was more this realization that I did not know how I got there. Yeah, how I became this gray overwhelmed version of myself that was fighting, sort of an acid rain storm of of mundane and overwhelm at the same time. Two words that many women in 17 countries associate with midlife. And that’s and that’s where my fairplay unicorn space journey started, where I tried to uncover what was happening to me.

Kara Goldin 6:10
And, you know, we’ve all had those days, for sure. What I have always said is, you know, you, if you’re like me, you start to you stop and think, you know, who’s my phone a friend? Right? Maybe, you know, maybe it’s your mom, you know, in my case, my mom passed away years ago. So you really you really sort of question if you’ll just freak someone out by calling them? You know, I didn’t buy blueberries, right? You know, it’s just it’s a, and you know, you know, you’re going to be okay, but you just really need to, you need things to be fair, right? And

Unknown Speaker 6:50
can I say something about bonding of friends, I think when you’re having like a business meltdown, or a friendship meltdown, it’s actually pretty easy. But I think we’ve been conditioned, especially sort of as Type A women or, you know, conditioned to be successful. We’ve been conditioned not to talk about our partners. So I actually think there was a lot of shame because I couldn’t really phone a friend that day of the blueberries. Because if I started to call someone and say, Seth is a complete asshole, and I’m alone, and I hate my marriage, then then God forbid, the next day, I didn’t feel that way. And then I feel so ashamed that I was, you know, talking shit about my partner, right? So the reason why the number one reason why people don’t write their memoir, Kara, I found out recently is because they don’t want to write people about people who are living. And so for me, I had to write about someone who’s living, you know, knock on wood, you know, that, Please, God, you know, he’s alive, please God. And so I had to, to be able to normalize these issues I set had to be willing to let me tell her story. And every woman in the beginning that I felt close to that I wanted to talk about these issues was a whisper network of yeah, my partner does that too. Or I’m overwhelmed to where I’m the one planning the birthday party, my partner can’t even bring home, you know, the right type of mustard. She’s bringing spicy Dijon home every fucking time. And I’m asking for, you know, French’s yellow. And I can’t trust them with my living will, because he can’t even bring home the right type of mustard. So we were doing it in a whisper network. But nobody, I felt was being vulnerable enough to have these conversations. And it took Seth, really allowing me to tell our story, which I thought was pretty brave.

Kara Goldin 8:38
So what was the next step? Then? Do you remember when you were sitting there, you know, having a meltdown? And thinking? You know, I gotta talk to Seth about this. And of course, Seth, you know, as, as my husband says, Happy wife happy life, right? He wants to get you out of the sorry about the blueberries. I’ll never say that again. Whatever. But that doesn’t fix the issue. Right. And I think that that’s where I felt like your book was just so amazing. But will you share with the audience kind of the next step for you?

Unknown Speaker 9:13
Yeah, well, for me, the next step was and I talk a lot about this in the book, realizing that there were other women, like the carriers of the world, these women that I looked up to, that were so strong and use their voice in every other area, that was awesome. They were also struggling with these issues, but I didn’t get there through a phone that a friend Kara would happen to me and I talked about this in the book was around the same time as my blueberries break down. I was on a breast cancer march in downtown LA for a friend that had been recently diagnosed and also somebody who a friend in law and law school had died. So we were there in this really beautiful camaraderie with 10 women, not all married men. But I remember this Saturday morning so well, because I don’t think I would have noticed If it hadn’t been for the blueberries breakdown, so that’s how life is right? Something sort of changes your lens. And then you it’s hard to, it’s a kaleidoscope. You sort of move that kaleidoscope, like one inch, and then the entire frame changes. So I was already in a different mindset about my own home. But what I saw that day of breast cancer March was that it was a Saturday morning, by noon, these women who I loved all turn into pumpkins, it wasn’t just me, you know, they were getting the text and the phone calls from their partners. Like, you know, where did you put had some soccer bag? And what’s the address of the birthday party? Did you leave me a gift. My favorite was my friend, Kate’s husband that texted her to the kids at lunch. And so I think the best part about that day was well, the worst part was the realization that all those women left me there and said, this was a great march, we had a great time together. But staying for lunch is too much I left my partner, but too much to do. And so the Oscar winning producer and the head of stroke and trauma for major hospital, all of these strong women left me there to go find Hudson’s soccer bag and to bring a perfectly wrapped gift to a birthday party, and to feed their kids lunch. But that was the day Kara that everything changed for me because I made them I forced them before they left count out how many phone calls and texts we received. And so it was 30 phone calls, and 46 tax for 10 women over 30 minutes. And that’s when I realized that even if you have a supportive partner who’s helping you with the execution of bringing Hudson to the birthday party, and they’re doing that willingly the mental load, the emotional labor, the cognitive labor, the planning, the conception that I talked about a fair play the behind the scenes, off screen work was still falling on women. And and then I was able to go to law library and realize that that was actually the truth that two thirds or more of what it takes to run a home and family falls on women. And this is the worst part. The worst part is that if you’re in a business with your partner, or you make more money than your partner, two things happen. There’s more violence in the home. And women do more domestic labor. So so a lot of people that were resistant to fair play, because they say, Well, women are gonna start making more money, and the dynamics will change. And in fact, we’ve now seen the opposite, that as more more women are the primary breadwinners for their families, or the CO breadwinners, they’re taking on more domestic work to compensate, I think for the fact that they’re breaking gendered expectations and the gender binary, which is such a big deal in our society.

Kara Goldin 12:50
Huge deal. And I will also add that even if you’re fortunate enough to be able to have help, and whether that’s a nanny or an assistant or whatever, there are certain things that you know, you feel responsibility to do, you can’t outsource those things. And you know, there’s 50

Unknown Speaker 13:11
That’s what the fair plays of the Fair Play getting to what it really was. It turned into a should I do spreadsheet with those women over nine months, and I getting to talk to women in 17 countries that over 10 years. And ultimately it became a system, a card game, where there’s 100 cards that represent everything you need to do in the household, to run an efficient household. God forbid you play with all 100 cards. The goal is to play with less than the full deck and to have ownership of the cards. But the real issue that you were just talking about care is very important. Because 50 of those cards of the 100 there’s 60 of you don’t have children, and 100 If you do so 40 extra cards if you have children 50 of those 100 cards can’t be outsourced. So as much as you love Alexia, she’s not deciding whether your child’s adenoids are being taken out. As much as you love Alexia, right, she’s probably not going to pick out the hair cut for your child. And so there are 50 of those cards that even if you wanted to or heard sort of that white feminist outcry, you know, rallying cry in the past 20 years, just outsource outsource outsource which is highly problematic, because it basically means white women’s careers are based on the undervalued work, nannies write of black and brown women. But if you put that aside, even if you did outsource, you can only do outsource about half of the work.

Kara Goldin 14:43
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Unknown Speaker 16:52
Well, I didn’t. There’s a couple of stories that didn’t get into the book, because they happened during the pandemic. But I’ll tell you a very small one, because I think they’re encapsulates to me what the benefits are for men, because this is really not about chores and housework, Cara, this is about our humanity, and our ability to, to thrive and to be more efficient, as one man’s that to me, his house is one where they wait to decide who’s taking the dog out right when it’s about to take a piss on the rug. So I think there’s a lot of people who don’t look at their home is their most important organization, they don’t have systems. And so you just sort of die and decision fatigue. But I’ll tell you just a very quick story. It’s like a two minute story. But it really illustrates to me the smallness of fair play, again, back to that Kaleidoscope analogy where you could just do something so small within the system, and it changes everything. But there was a couple during the pandemic, where it was a stay at home mom, her name, I’ll just call her Amy and her I’ll call him Edie. And so, Amy and Edie. They, she’s a stay at home mom, but she was doing everything homeschooling, just literally dying during the pandemic of stress and overwhelm. And so they wanted to start playing fair play, which is not the best time to play when your emotions are high and your cognition is low, but whatever I wanted to see what would happen. So they start to really go through the cards. What they noticed about Edie was that because he works and sort of shut the door during the COVID, and sort of took over and she had a part time job and gave up her job, that she noticed that a lot of the cards that he actually was in charge of when they were looking at the deck, what were related to like home goods. He was the one ordering Amazon’s supplies. He was the one who did a lot the yard. He talked to the gardener’s who paid their bills, but there was one there’s a suit. Because the cards have four seats like real card, there’s a suit called home. There’s a suit court called caregiving is a suit call out like transporting your kids to school. And there’s a suit called Magic. And what they realized was that Ed wasn’t involved in any of the magic suit for their kids. And one of the cards in the magic suit is called magical beings. And so he wanted to be involved in the magic because that’s the fun part. You know, the magic for your kids. It’s like bringing them the flowers to the recital and, and planning birthday parties. There’s just a lot of fun and no stress but so he took over the magical beings card and he decided he was going to be the tooth fairy. They talked about it in advance. And so as you can predict, probably care where the story is going. The first time he was tooth fairy, it was their second it was her daughter’s second tooth. The tooth fairy didn’t come. So, and this is Edie talking to me about what fairplay did for him. So The what would have happened before fairplay Ed told me and Amy agreed, was that she would have said, I will never fucking trust you with anything ever again. I tried. This division of labor is not working, you’ve ruined the magic for our child. I knew you couldn’t do it. But because they were trying to really be in this fairplay system, one of the main rules is you have to let someone carry through their mistake. And also they have to take accountability. So what Amy said to me was the second that Edie said to her that it was my bad, I messed up. Because he said, his dynamic when he would have blamed her, he would have blamed me for not reminding him to put the dollar under the pillow. But post fairplay, he takes ownership says my bad didn’t blame you totally my mistake, Amy let some character mistake because he took the accountability. And so he tells me he emails to [email protected] saying, Sorry, where are you like you didn’t come last night he did in front of his daughter, before, you know, whatever the school day. And then when she gets home, it turns out that this email account actually receive a response. He prints it out, there’s somebody behind to ferry gmail.com. So thank you for that woman. But he tells me he prints it out. He shows it to his daughter, he says, Look, the two services, their supply chain issues, because of the pandemic, that means things can’t get here. And he’s joking with his daughter. And he says, you know, when she’s late, she brings double the money. And then that night, he put the dollar into the pillow. And today, he’s still the tooth fairy, two years later, that’s fair play. And that’s the beauty for men the space to be able to have those connections with the people around them because now we’re learning that the only predictor for men’s health that matters is the quality of their relationships at 55 is whether we can predict whether they’re alive at 85. For women, it’s more complicated. For men, it is their quality of their connections. And so I hope people learn from Ed or men understand that this is not a shaming activity, where scorekeeping exercise, it’s not 5050 it’s about the beauty of ownership, when you take ownership of caring about your home as an organization.

Kara Goldin 22:21
So I had read fairplay before and I had not read your newest book, unicorn space, I went back and reread fairplay and immediately jumped in, you were my weekend reading red unicorn space. And it’s it, you know, it just seems so natural, how the two just kind of fed off of one another. And just in based on what you just said to I feel like, there’s probably, you know, the the invisible work that people are doing, there’s probably not a lot of joy for a lot of people in that, especially when they’re giving up, you know, their unicorn space, their creative side. So do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Unknown Speaker 23:07
Yeah, well, I think again, back to not wanting to be an expert in the gender division of labor, Kara, I did not expect to also write my second book about creativity. I thought book two would be fair play for co founders, and fair play for workplaces, which hopefully will be Book Three. But I couldn’t ignore a lot of the data that I couldn’t all fit into, into fair play. And the data was that people were one of the reasons that was shocking to me that people were hesitant to play fair play was they didn’t understand the premise of getting time back, Kara. PSA said they would just use it, to do more parenting, to do more partnering to be a professional. They didn’t understand what they would do with any free time, right, because they had been giving away their most valuable currency, their time for free to others or their roles for so long. And so I was highly alarmed that there wasn’t a there was this passion gap, especially for women who sort of were parents, partners, professionals on repeat for at least 10 years. Fourth grade, I was getting a lot of women saying to me, I would have no idea what to do with found time. The only thing I’m passionate about Eve is you know, curious about is why my newborn babies poop is yellow. And so I would I even I asked the CEO who I love what makes you you and she said shopping. So I was feeling highly alarmed. And then so I decided, and I also felt really alarmed by a lot of the happiness books that were coming out, because it felt like everybody was becoming obsessed with how to be happy, how to find happiness, happiness, this happiness that and so I had to really and then women were feeling guilty because they weren’t always happy. And I was like, and I was feeling rage through the entire Trump era. And I kept saying, like, this can’t be the real definition of mental health, like being happy all the time. And so I finally went to the mental health professionals was one of the biggest insights of my life. And I decided I wanted to write a book surrounding that. And the biggest insight that I’ve ever gotten, besides that ownership is more important than 5050, which at the fair play, Insight is in the power of treating your home as your most important organization. But the insight that led me to read to write unicorn space was the insight that we have been saying to our kids and ourselves, I just want you to be happy when the actual definition of mental health is to have the appropriate emotion, at the appropriate time, and the ability and strength to weather it. And so once I understood what the true definition of mental health was, I understood that idea of unicorn space, this time, that brings you back to what makes you you activities that make you come alive, that scare you a little bit that say they make you feel like I can’t believe I just did that. Those are the ability and strength to weather it. There are umbrellas. And once I realized that that was what we can have, we can have these, we can be consistently interested in our own lives. And that will lead to mental and physical health. It was a really, and so I went to seven expert disciplines, so you don’t have to just believe me, the science is in there. But it’s not just about being creative, or picking up art pens. It’s about what does it take to be consistently interested in your own life, beyond your roles as a parent, partner and professional. And that was unfortunately harder than just an article to write after fairplay, Kara. I felt like it took an entire book to explore that fundamental difference in how and how to look at happiness versus true actual mental health.

Kara Goldin 26:57
Definitely, I mean, it is so so good. And it’s in for me, always wanting to have a really service, my creative side, no matter how busy I am, or whatever I’m doing, it just spoke so much to me. So so let’s say somebody’s listening to this, they’re gonna go buy the books, and they’re going to hear a little bit more about this. But how do they reset a situation? They’re like, that’s me. I have no creativity left my house is I never buy the blueberries. I like, wanna just pull my hair out cry all the time. How do you? What’s the first step and kind of resetting?

Unknown Speaker 27:42
Well, I think it’s really important to, I think, if someone’s listening, and this is the 101, I think it’s really important to figure out sort of what, what is hardest for you right now. So actually, if you have a partner who’s your like this, he’s InterSystems. He’s already helping. Yes, he brings some spicy Dijon, but I sort of realized that our dynamic is similar to Amy and Ed, if you’re that, I would say start with fairplay because it’s a really easy way to up level your life by entering a system. If you feel like my partner always assumes I’m buying his smoothie needs. And stuff is not going well. I wouldn’t start with theraplay actually, because it’s a very, very triggering. You can read the book and lived with some of that anger and angst. And then the system is really helpful later. But I wouldn’t start there. What I would start with is the entry point of unicorn space, of not worrying about your household dynamics at this moment, but But starting to work on yourself. And when we work on ourselves, there are two things that are the biggest hurdles to to women claiming their unicorn space. And one. And this is because I asked I asked him 17 countries, you know, you tell me you love pianos, uh, why aren’t you playing? You tell me that. You’re obsessively outdoors. But you’ve been indoors all winter. You tell me that, you know, used to have a crocheting group like what happened to that? Typically the number the two things that women have told me why they’ve sort of given up those passions are one that they don’t believe they have permission to be unavailable Kara, that that availability becomes part of their identity. And that’s because of capitalist patriarchy. And so, you know, we can do a whole other episode on why we’re conditioned that way. But we are conditioned to not hold a boundary for our own time. And again, this is a whole other episode but I talked about this in fairplay and unicorn space that that comes from a fundamental conditioning from birth that women should be have ailable to others as as a parent or partner and or professional, because that that that conditioning is how society works. If women weren’t doing all the unpaid labor, if we didn’t treat women’s time as infinite lifespan and guard men’s time is as diamonds, our whole system would collapse. If you don’t believe me just see what happened when women had to take over, literally everything during the pandemic. So that boundary that your time is also diamonds is very hard. And if you don’t believe me, I started to ask women, close your eyes. Picture your child’s school is calling, don’t pick up. And so women were getting a stress response. Even they’re telling me they’re, they’re getting a stress response, even in the picturing of that exercise. And then the second big hurdle was guilt and shame, that women who did feel like they were doing creative pursuits are really interested in them felt that they were always tainted by guilt and shame that they couldn’t get rid of. And so those are where I would start with understanding. How are you feeling? Has availability, have you been conditioned to believe availability has to be part of your identity, that you have to drop everything for everybody else? Have you tried creative pursuits, but then guilt and shame sort of ruin it? And so I talk a lot about how you can get out of that rut. But one of my favorite exercises that I did I talk about in Book Two unicorn space, was I started to keep a guilt and shame journal, Kara. And it was really fun, because I did this during right before the pandemic. And I started to create a journal moleskin that said, you know, I feel guilty because I don’t put Anna to bed at night, or I didn’t put an ad to bed tonight. That’s my, you know, my that was my toddler daughter at the time. And then I would cross it out. And say I made the decision not to put Anna to bed tonight. So I could see kara Because I haven’t caught up with her in a while. And I really miss her. And then the fun part about changing I feel guilty because I made the decision. Because is that a year later, you look back on the things you felt guilty about Cara and you’re it’s like embarrassing? Is it I felt guilty, like for taking a walk around the block, instead of going to buy like a Hello Kitty sheet for my daughter or something ridiculous. And you’re like, that’s what has been holding me back all this time. So I would that’s where I would I would start I would start with understanding this idea about what your boundaries are? Are you able to keep a boundary? Or do you drop everything for everybody else? And how if you don’t also examine sort of how guilt and shame and those emotions sort of play with your creative identity?

Kara Goldin 32:51
I totally agree. So it’s it is? I mean, I think that that’s the best way to describe it. Because I think especially there are I mean, people may not actually even understand that there is a problem. I almost feel like there’s some people that are going to read unicorn space and then say wait, really actually evaluate and get back to fairplay. So anyway, both excellent. And you did such an amazing job. And they were just super helpful. For sure. So last question, best advice that anyone has ever given you along the way or sort of knowing what you know about relationships about household management, whatever it is, like, what is it that maybe you’ve you’ve heard that that has really been helpful, or you’ve come up with on your own that you’re that you’re telling your younger self?

Unknown Speaker 33:50
You know, it actually came from my middle son Ben, because he helped me understand and try to understand why I was holding his initial hit might his dog his sister’s initial and my son’s initial on my neck. I had this, you know, initial Detlef necklace. And he gave me permission to replace their initials with my own. And we had this whole conversation about where he said to me a version of what we mean in the context of the, you know, the conversation about both books that it was okay to wear my own initial around my neck. And I said to him, You know what, and I do it actually, physically, you know, I went to like a jewelry store just for like a $50 necklace or whatever. And I wear an E around my neck because what we decided together, me and my son was that everybody was going to remind me that I was a parent. They would say to me who’s watching your kids when I was gonna go on business trips. Everybody would remind me that I was the mother to Anna and Zack and Ben, but no one was going to remind me that I was allowed to be Eve. And so actually, that sort of saved conversation allowed me to put my actual physical initial back on my neck. And that’s been one of the most powerful symbols for me.

Kara Goldin 35:17
So empowering. I love that story. That is so so terrific.

Unknown Speaker 35:21
I’ve actually never told that before. So thank you for asking that question. Because no, I love it. I just Yeah, so I’ll tell them that a shout out to Ben.

Kara Goldin 35:31
Yeah, shout out to Ben. I love that so much. So thank you again, and we’ll have all the info in the show notes and thanks everybody for listening so goodbye for for now. Goodbye

Unknown Speaker 35:43
actually going to do some unpaid labor and pick up my son from school. So Big hugs to you.

Kara Goldin 35:47
Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would, please give us a review. And feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin. And if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen. Or pick up a copy of my book on daunted which I share my journey, including founding and building hint. We are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And thanks everyone for listening. Have a great rest of the week, and 2023 and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening

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