Sallie Krawcheck: Co-Founder & CEO of Ellevest

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down but just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I’m so thrilled to have my next guest here I have Sallie Krawcheck who is the co founder and CEO of Ellevest. And I am honored to have her on today as I was just sharing with her I met her years ago at a fortune conference, but I have also just fangirled over her and, you know, boldness and bravery to forge lots of new lanes along the way. And obviously watching her launch co found and run a company called Ella vest that you’re going to learn all new things about if you do not know about it. But it’s an incredible digital first investment platform, working to help close the gender wealth gap by redefining investing for women, which Sally knows tons and tons about they’ve recently announced fairly recently that they have over a billion under management, that number may be dated on 1.6. There you go. I knew it. I had a little bit higher than that. That’s incredible. And before launching Ellevest in 2016, Sally was one of the highest ranked women ever to work on Wall Street and widely recognized as one of the most influential women in business. And this after a fairly high profile Act back in 2008, which, uh, let her share that story a bit. But I have, as I said, fangirled over Sally for years and really admired her chutzpah and and also her kindness and her generosity and sharing lessons along the way, which I think we can all learn so much from other people, which is part of the reason why I do this podcast as well. So welcome, Sally.

Sallie Krawchek 2:41
Thank you, Karen. Right back at you. I’ve loved watching what you’ve built. And really, I’m so pleased and excited to be here with you today.

Kara Goldin 2:49
Thank you so much. Well, I was very excited to do some more research on you too, and learned that you grew up in South Carolina. And I’d love to kind of hear more about you as a kid. What did you think you were going to do when you grew up? And and did you always think that you would be in finance?

Sallie Krawchek 3:11
Oh, my gosh, you know, we would have been my last choice what what was going to be interesting about that? No, obviously I wanted to be a princess. But when that didn’t work out, I went to my second choice, which was banker, but my real first career aspiration was to be a journalist. And it was probably because that was a career that was available to women when I was growing up in the 70s and in the 80s. And tried to get into journalism in business management of journalism, a few different times and never could and it worked out pretty well because I found a career. My first real job that could be called a career was as a research analyst, which is a lot like a journalist where you try to you know uncover new facts and information try to put them together in a interesting way to you know, analyze them, write them up defend them with a you know, goal of in the case of a research analyst making people money. So, a lot of similarities between the two. But the princess thing carriages didn’t did not work out for me whatsoever.

Kara Goldin 4:26
So you went to UNC Chapel Hill, you and I were sharing that that my daughter is graduating from there and very, very exciting. The Tar Heel connection for sure. So you graduated in journalism. I’m going to coined this term that you wrote your way into into Wall Street, I guess as as your as you were describing with being an analyst, which is incredible, totally makes sense. In fact, a fortune article called you or editor called you at that time, the last honest analyst I saw that’s, that’s incredible. So when you get compliments like that, did you ever feel like, you know, on the one hand, people were giving you compliments on the other hand, you have people gunning for you, right? That want to take you down. And it’s a very complicated situation as you rise to the top people have called it lonely. But it’s the disadvantages of actually being good. Well,

Sallie Krawchek 5:35
there’s a lot, a lot to unpack here. We could we could talk about this for days and weeks. So back when I first got to Wall Street, there was no this unconscious bias or subtle bias carrier was bias there was, we’d all you know, whoa, we don’t want women here. And, you know, I’ve, I’ve written Xerox copies of male genitalia left on my desk. I mean, it was we really don’t want you here being put on all the bad deals, and none of the good ones. I found my way away from the teamwork of investment banking to the solitary work of research, where I found much of the gender issue sort of fell away, that I didn’t have to fight to be on the best team, I just had to cover the banks, which was my area of coverage. I found that if you had smart, sharp, differentiated points of view, backed by the analysis, people would get over though she’s a she’s a girl, right? Well, wait a second, I need to I’m trying to make money by trading stocks, I need to have the information that makes sense. So I’m gonna have to talk to this woman, you know, who, you know, is bringing, and then the team dynamics fell away from me. Now, when I was on the cover of Fortune Magazine, as the last honest analyst, and when I was later, you know, unfortunate, Most Powerful Women list Did did you feel the target on your back? Oh, sure. You did? Be sure you did in the day that would, you know, journalists tend to love, you know, putting people up on a pedestal and they love to knock that pedestal over. And you know, I’ve I’ve even had drinks with some of the top women business journalists who will admit it’s either it’s just more, they just do it to women, too, you know, that it can be even more interesting to watch a woman climb to the top and then sort of knock her off. It’s it’s almost, it’s almost where you can’t help yourself. So I think a couple things, you know, I found that if you were always different and adding value and everything you every analysis you published, added something, that it really helped me get to the top that having a different point of view on the business helped me move into management. But yeah, there’s a Bap salutely, a target on one’s back.

Kara Goldin 8:00
And I saw that, actually, you talked about how especially working in a male environment, I can’t remember the statistic. But when you are working in a, with a number of men, you’re on the cover of Fortune Magazine, maybe there are men that don’t like that so much right there. They’re like, Oh, hey, congratulations, you got this, but probably also thinking, you know, why her? And why not me?

Sallie Krawchek 8:32
Oh, sure. And women, too, you know, you and I were talking about meeting each other at one of the Fortune women’s conferences. There were so few seats at the big table, executive table for women, that you could feel when you were on that list, that, you know, women at the company that you worked at, that you could you could feel that ah, you know, she got the slot, I didn’t get the slot. We often Cara talk with, with our generation a little bit about, you know, the queen bee in business, the woman who makes the the top and doesn’t help other folks. I always say she was just an economic creature that she knew if there was one C, and she wanted it, that she wasn’t competing with Joe or Steve or John, she was competing with Suzy and that we were somewhat pitted against each other. And so I felt it. You could feel it regardless. And like maybe that’s just the way of the world that you know, we love putting, you know, celebrating people and dragging people down. Then I always found with the press to Boy, was I an unpleasant person according to the press. When I was the Chief Financial Officer of city or running Merrill Lynch, I would read about myself and I think what an unpleasant person, but then I was so terrific. You know, when I got knocked on my tail, and was clawing my way back and I’ve had of course, the same personality since I was 18. But somehow, you read about a quite different Only depending on where you are in your career.

Kara Goldin 10:02
Yeah, no, that’s it’s so true. And I, you know, I think it’s crazy to think that, you know, one week you can be one thing and the next week you can be another thing and I think we live in a society where you see it all the time somebody’s a star and then they’re not right. And it’s, it’s fascinating for sure. So before we get into hearing about Ella vest, I’d love to hear so. So you went on, you touched on this a bit. You’re you were the CFO at at Citi. And and can you share a little bit more about what else you were doing in your career and and kind of why you left Wall Street?

Sallie Krawchek 10:42
Yes. So if we back up a little bit when I was a research analyst, as I said, I, I never said anything unless I had something to say. Which meant that I was often negative when everyone else was bullish, which, you know, got me to Director research and eventually CEO of the company that I worked at. The reason I was named the last honest analyst is because I saw the conflicts that while research analysts had on Wall Street where they were serving different masters different revenue streams and, and said, If we’re gonna do research, let’s let’s be independent, and give up millions of dollars of revenue in order to work for the moms and pops, you know, and the pension plans that are buying the stocks. So I did that. It didn’t work for a while we were losing analyst and then it did work. And that’s when I was on the cover as the last honest analyst when others had to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in fines for the conflicts. That’s Carol, what got me over to running what was then called Smith Barney, now is Morgan Stanley, the wealth management business Chief Financial Officer of Citigroup and eventually running the private bank. Second big career milestone I got fired on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, because in the crisis, the subprime crisis of Oh 708, I advocated partially reimbursing our clients because we had missiles and products to them, they were supposed to be low risk, they ended up being high risk, I said, we should just admit, we made this mistake and pay them and my boss did not agree with me and the Board did and I won the battle but got fired. I was then brought in by Bank of America just bought Merrill Lynch, and was brought in by the CEO Bank of America to turn around Merrill, which at the time was hemorrhaging financial advisors. We got it turned around, we got the attrition rate way down, we got the revenue growing, we were beating plan, we were gaining share. And the CEO then came to me after two years and said now that the turnarounds done non these words, but I’m gonna give it to my white guys. 60 something year old buddy, who I’ve worked with for decades, who’s never run a wealth management business before. And I remember my jaw just sort of on the on the table. You know, we’ve heard about that glass Cliff women get, you know, pushed out on it to turn around businesses, no one wants to turn around, I guess I you know, I never really thought about once you turn it around, let’s let’s, you know, push you out. And so then I thought carry, maybe I won’t be at a big company anymore. Maybe this is getting to be a little much. And that’s when I you know, first said, let me find any inefficiencies in the market to start a business. But really what happened is, I had a recognition, sort of a lightning bolt recognition one morning, that, you know, when they were the first recognition was the retirement crisis is actually a woman’s crisis. 80% of us die single, we, you know, have 30 cents of wealth to every dollar wealth that a man has, that women are likely to go more likely to go into poverty as they get older. And so we’ve got this problem, which is women, we have this big wealth gap. And a big part of it is women don’t invest as much as men do. And so that’s what started Ella vest, which is, huh. I know they don’t I know it cost women hundreds of 1000s. For some women millions of dollars over the course of their lives. My industry knows this. But he’s always had the point of view that it was somehow women’s fault, where risk of our reserve we need more financial education. And LMS was really founded on the view that maybe it’s not our fault, maybe the industry was built by men for men. That is an industry where 86% of financial advisors are men and 98% of mutual fund managers, and mutual fund dollars are managed by men and 99% of investment companies are owned by white men made maybe they built it for themselves and maybe just as we need our own medical research and, you know, we need something that really centers women, as opposed to de facto centering men without needing to And that was the genesis of Ella vest.

Kara Goldin 15:02
So how did you you had worked at large companies and you know, but now you’re you’ve decided to embark on growing a company from nothing. Dirt,

Sallie Krawchek 15:12
no dirt, it was from dirt. Right? You’ve

Kara Goldin 15:14
got this idea. You’ve you’ve got a name for yourself it’s obviously failure is is going to be really high profile maybe right like there’s there’s all these things I can just imagine you know when you’re sort of flying under the radar which you weren’t you were gonna go start something Weren’t you? Were you nervous?

Sallie Krawchek 15:39
Sure, of course. But that’s never stopped me because the the even as a research analyst if you’re on CNBC and you’re making a call at least in your world, if you’re wrong, people know it, you can’t hide when I went to go turn around Smith, Barney and turn around Merrill. Again, I was front page of the journal and and I got booted up front page of the journal. So to me the public failure and humiliation the embarrassment, I don’t care. Or I do care, but I don’t care for long. Yeah, the ability to live the biggest life the most interesting professional life. And at an Alabama asked to change women’s lives money is women’s number one source of stress. Number one, taking action on a cara investing is the number one driver of their confidence in their future. Yesterday, you and I are both and as it turns out in the bay area today, yesterday, I was at JFK, I got my lbs bag. I am getting ready to board the plane, I have a young woman with a cute little pop puppy she was holding, come up to me and say, Are you at Ella bass? Do you the CEO of Alibaba, I said, I am. She said, You changed my life. Please thank the team. You know, because you changed the way I think about money. You’ve taught me about money, and you made me money. Please say that, to me, that we have got chills now telling you about this, the chance to do that far outweighs the public failure. Humiliation. And by the way, the other thing I’d say care if not me who? Uh huh. You know, to start a company like analogous, you’ve got to have a lot of finance and investing experience. You have to be able to build a tech team didn’t really realize it. But you have to build a pretty big community because women need a place to gather with these questions. You probably have to build a brand, you have to raise a lot of venture money. You know, you probably have to have been in the NGO, and you probably need to be a woman. Right? If you tried it is a man people might like, I don’t know about that. And so I looked around and said Who the heck could do that? And the answer is not many people, and none of them were stupid enough to do it. Except for me.

Kara Goldin 17:52
Yeah, it’s, it’s funny that you use the term stupid because I always say like, who? Who would start a beverage company with no experience? And you know, think that it was a great idea, right? Like, you know, what’s the worst that can happen? It’s lots of amazing ly horrible things have happened to me in the past. So I mean, this is just one more

Sallie Krawchek 18:17
in by the way, it makes working in a big company like, which is hard, but not even close. Not even close. Not even close. And why? You know, you can’t, when you start out, you’re one mistake away from failure. And you can’t get the funding unless you have the team but you can’t get the team if you don’t have the funding. It’s just you know, and by the way, let’s not even go into women in finance and technology and how what a small share of venture money we are able to raise. So you have to do it all in a very capital constrained way.

Kara Goldin 18:50
Definitely the I was going to ask you to obviously you had lots of contacts in the industry, but you know, you’re focusing on a different focus. You’re talking to a bunch of men generally about raising money and for a platform that is focused on women. So how difficult was it to actually raise capital?

Sallie Krawchek 19:13
Yes, and no, it wasn’t, it wasn’t, you know, the first door that I ran into is I didn’t want to do this on my own. And I thought let me go partner with a large bank or institution and we’ll do it as you know, have them put some money and have me put the time in and have it sort of a joint venture. That was a disaster. What the one of the first let breakfast I went to with the CEO of a extremely large bank. We sat down and about halfway through he said yes, but don’t their husbands manage their money for them. And from that point of view, it was like okay, we’re, this isn’t going anywhere, right because we’re not doing a cutesy pink it trinket sort of thing. That being said, that first round was okay because I went friends and family so I went to people I’ve worked with before. And I was fortunate enough to speak to know Joe Mansueto at Morningstar, who made the first investment and what he said was, we have Morningstar, know this has been an issue, we haven’t been able to solve it. I don’t know if you can solve it, but we think you’ve got a better chance than anyone else, and were willing to put in some money. And so I went to folks I’ve worked with, you know, and they put in, you know, what was, you know, for them, not the majority of their network. So that went just fine. And went quickly. It was later Kara, when we went to the institutional rounds, when I could get the meetings. But I’m just going to be honest, you know, the, again, the research tells you women CEOs get about 2% of venture dollars, get about 1% of venture dollars for FinTech get about 1% of Series B. So the bigger checks, you know, which week said, you know, made it like a one in 10,000 Chance all of us would get funded. And while I didn’t know, folks, and our numbers were quite strong, there definitely nobody was like, Oh my gosh, it’s the 50x year old, former CFO of Citigroup. She’s the entrepreneur we’re looking for, you know, I didn’t have the hoodie. I was a different age, I was a different gender. And look, by the way, I think the fact that nobody of my generation, male, female, non binary, who’s been in those senior roles on Wall Street, nobody’s going out and raise venture money the way I have. Nope. And, again, because they’re not stupid, but so it was hellacious. It was hellacious. So interestingly, in our last round, where again, those odds were one in 10,000. against us. We were raising it was the numbers were good. People really want to crypto at the time. So Carol, what we did is never been done before we actually reached out to individual women who were doing angel investing. And rather than go to just the institutions, we pulled together something like 600 women and underrepresented investors, and through a series of special purpose vehicles funded us from sort of, in between the crowd funding, which is little dollars and the institutional. We had people write checks for $5,000 $10,000. And we raised you know, through that, and some institutional funding 53 million bucks.

Kara Goldin 22:25
That’s amazing. Amazing, it was amazing. That’s really great. We we did the same I mean a lot of hints funding we have hundreds of investors and a few large ones but we have hundreds of small investors and we really love it, that they love it that they are really the ones to that that speak to the brand that tell others about it. There’s a lot of great things about it as well so what lessons have you learned along the way that you wanted to make sure you were achieving in in starting Ella vest? What lessons good and bad lessons that maybe you know challenged you and you said when I’m going to start my own company, the culture will be x the you know, know

Sallie Krawchek 23:17
that well, you know, you do read Cara about women start companies started the companies of which they want to work that men well, where they start a company often it’s I want to make the money, I want to go public, I want to sell it women are like I want to build the company, which I want to work. And so an LMS today, you know, I mentioned the industry, overwhelmingly male where 85% Women 50% People of Color 20% Plus LGBTQIA identifying. So we really are the flip side of what’s we what the broader industry looks like, and, and we you know, really work to over represent underrepresented groups and in almost everything we do. And what we found, of course, is we’re getting great people, you know, because people who want to be in FinTech or financial services, look around and don’t see themselves at the top of some of these companies. And in fact, one of them just you know, pay paid out hundreds of millions of dollars for gender discrimination. But then to see something that looks like an Alabama that has such a strong mission has been really terrific for us. You know, I’d say the other lesson, which I know you will appreciate is do not start a business unless you must do not do not you I remember Karen the early days being at you know a co working space and walking around the floor and looking at all the different startups there and like none of the you know, none of these are going to be around like you you sort of hear about the ones that oh Airbnb this and you know, Facebook that and like that’s what you hear about, but 90 plus percent fail and I’m shocked it isn’t more work. And so you have to, you have to really have to start a business. For me, I had to, I couldn’t have spent my career with the privileges I’ve had, with the experiences, I’ve had that no other woman, no, very few other people. And at the time, no other women have had see how women are getting knocked back when it comes to wealth, which is so bad for our society, so bad for our economy, so bad for families, a root cause I think of much of the anger in this country, these wealth disparity, and to see this, and to see how bigger role investing can play, and then not do it. And then not like, I could not have lived with myself. And so unless you feel like that, do not start a business because it is all consuming for you.

Kara Goldin 25:56
Yeah. And I think what you’re speaking to, too is you saw this problem, I speak a lot on college campuses, and I talk to people who are, they all want to be entrepreneurs, I’m like, first of all, you have to have a problem in front of you that you are losing sleep over that if you don’t do it, no one else is going to do it. And I think that is what I’m hearing out of you it just like was right in front of you and smacked you in the face, however you want to look at it. And you knew that you could solve this problem, and you are doing that? What advice would you give to women who are looking to build their own businesses or or careers, whether it’s in finance, or just in general? I mean, what do you think is like an important aspect that, you know, is really critical?

Sallie Krawchek 26:40
Well, what I’m gonna say it’s probably going to surprise you. What one message I want, so many women have, and particularly young women is sometimes it’s not your fault. Sometimes it’s not your fault, we have so many books that talk to us about how to get ahead and so many magazine articles about how to ask for the raise, and so many about how to get the promotion and all very, you know, here’s the list and check off the list on by the way, so many articles that also when it comes to money, Kara are so dismissive to us, you know, something like 332 thirds of articles to women around money, and management of money, essentially, are negative and tell her it’s her fault, that she’s not, you know, coupon clipping enough, or she’s buying too many lattes, or she’s not planning well enough, or she’s bought too many Manolo Blahniks. And so, you know, we we sort of had this wall of here’s how to do it. And if you don’t do it, it’s your fault. And what I want to say to women is, it’s not your fault, sometimes, it’s not your fault. You know, the fact you didn’t get the raise, might have nothing to do with how you did on the job, because I’ll bet you’re working hard. And I’ll bet you’re turning on your projects on time. And I’ll bet you’re asking for the raise right away. It could be the company can’t afford it. I mean, we’re in a weird economy right now. But a lot of times, Kara, it’s that the boss, sort of by definition, middle manager, white male, you know, it can be I know, these are loaded words, but implicit bias, right, where, you know, I’ve so many of my friends as we were going into the workforce, you know, they just got guy caught between a really well, meaning really nice, great guy who just promoted people like himself. Now I know that feels Sparky. But when you look at the statistics of the companies out there, and how the men are in so many more senior roles in the women, it just by definition is true, right? And we never allow for that. Like, it’s just not your fault. You just got a well meaning guy who just forgot about everything. He learned his unconscious 30 minute unconscious bias training class, you know, and then when it comes to money, and gee, I’m just spending so much I just feel so guilty about it. Well, wait a second, you’re only getting eight cents, you know, 80 cents to the white man’s dollar. That’s the problem. It’s not your facials, you know, and it’s certainly not your lattes, it’s that you’re not making as much money. And so, you know, I know we want like a now inspirational, this is the way forward and this is a way to fix it. Sometimes a way to fix it is you got to find another job. You know, you can’t fix, it’s hard to fix your boss. And these things can be hard to see and care. I’ve seen too many women who stay in jobs for years and years and years and years. And don’t recognize it’s not them. It’s him.

Kara Goldin 29:29
Yeah, it’s so, so interesting. So I just came from a wedding this weekend and talk to a bunch of my nieces and nephews who are millennials. And there’s this consistent thread that I see amongst them as, as well as friends of mine or burnout. It’s a massive, massive issue. And a lot of people a lot of women in particular that I see are opting out, and they’re just spent and You know, it’s it’s scary to me, because they’re while I think that there are, they should go and find something else. Maybe it’s it’s where they are the industry they’re in or, or whatever it makes me very nervous from an investing standpoint and what you’re ultimately doing. What are your thoughts on that?

Sallie Krawchek 30:22
Well, there’s research that shows a senior women are opting out of record rates right now. And there’s a little bit of chi y right now, and I don’t know that I have the answer. But, but when you look that we have had a higher bar at work, women, other underrepresented groups are promoted based on achievement, whereas white men are promoted based on potential. So we got the higher bar at work than at home, we’re doing what three times the childcare and double the housework, you know, no wonder we’re sort of exhausted. Here. I think it might be something about returned to Office, where, you know, so many white collar women have been able to work in the home. And now it’s, you must be back in the office three days a week, five days a week, might be the straw for some of these women where they go back in, and you had sort of gotten used to, you know, wearing your sweatpants and not having the micro aggressions about could you get the coffee? Could you take the notes in the meeting? You know, and women are like, I just, I can’t even I cannot even. But there’s definitely something in the water right now where, you know, and perhaps it is this also this next generation just isn’t willing to take it anymore. You know, it’s exhausting. It’s exhausting. And there felt like there was a moment the, you know, here comes, we and then we’ve got the way and then here comes, time’s up. And here comes the Women’s March, and we’re moving forward. And, and those have really collapsed. And I think there’s a sense of, you know, a slight exhaustion about what’s that about, you know, what’s happening out there.

Kara Goldin 32:01
So if somebody is wants to go on to Ella vest, they have not been on to Ella vest, and they want to what is the first step for them? And what can they expect to get out of not only as a platform, but you also have a ton of education on there, too. And communities? So what is kind of the initial promise for consumers? Why would they want to spend time there? Yeah. So

Sallie Krawchek 32:29
Ella vest is the only investing and wealth management platform built for women. It was also built by women, it’s funded by women, it’s founded by women, we invest in women, we invest through women, but as the only one that centers women, and Kara, this is really important. And it’s really important for investing for things like retirement, if the investing algorithm thinks, you know, it was gender neutral, that sounds cool, right? Gender neutral, well, that’s fine, except that women earn less, salaries, peak sooner, take more career breaks, and we die later. And if you click through that math quickly in your head, what it means is that we risk running out of money, if that’s not taken into account. So LMS was the first that said, you know, we’re going to be a gender aware all woman first investing algorithm. So we help women invest really, from those first dollars through to when she’s very successful, you know, you know, high net worth individual, we start with an online offering for her, she can graduate into working with a financial planner, and she can graduate into working with a financial advisor. And so through all of this, as she invests, she also has the opportunity to invest for positive impact, whether that’s investing in other women investing, you know, to fight climate change, you know, investing for social reasons, etc. We are not at the view at Alabaster, you have to give up financial return, we’re of the view that every dollar we invest or buy anything with is a vote. And so many of our women really look to, you know, vote with their money, while also earning financial returns. Along the way, we have lots of workshops, and, you know, worksheets and articles and guidebooks and so on, to help people with again, centering women, you know, to help people with, you know, learning along the way so that that’s a you know, we can join as a membership and invest from there, you know, that’s all of us

Kara Goldin 34:36
now. It’s, it’s terrific. So, last question, best advice that you’ve ever received, you have had an amazing, amazing career, you’ve worked in big companies, you’ve started companies. You’ve really broken down walls, climbed over walls, you’ve done fearless things, very brave things. But what What is the best advice you’ve ever received?

Speaker 1 35:02
Yeah, it’s a it’s a difficult one. But But I think it all sort of circles around the what would you do if you if you knew you would not fail? You know, what would you do? That’s number one, and then just do it. And that if you fail, you can pick yourself up, you know, dust yourself off. I’d say if I give me one more, the other thing that’s been meaningful for me, is the exercise of you’re on your deathbed. And you’re looking back, and what what life would you have want to have lived and I think that really adds clarity to it, as well. And you’ve probably seen the research, Kaira that people regret at the end of their lives, not what they did, but what they didn’t do. And so having those sort of combined for a sense of, you know, just do it, just get out there and do it. You’re going to fail a lot. As women, we’ve been socialized that failures, sort of embarrassing for us, but just plow on through it, because I think we would agree, nobody cares. You know, did you care before we got on? Oh, Sally, means you talk to you, you know, your your family on bad to have Sally on? You know, she got fired twice? Of course, she did not. Right. Who cares? Who cares about it?

Kara Goldin 36:13
Right now? And I think the thing is, is that, you know, your story is so inspiring, because you got back up. Right, and you kept moving forward. And, you know, I think that that is a that’s a powerful thing. It’s it’s the, those are the kinds of stories where you want to hang out with those people, right? Because they went against all odds, right? And

Sallie Krawchek 36:36
there is a group of us, I do have to say, at one of these, you know, women’s gatherings, is we’re starting, you know, starting to get back together. There is a group of us, like, we failed publicly, we’re like, we should all go to a spa together.

Kara Goldin 36:49
We should totally, totally. I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, and it’s, it’s lots of women, but there’s definitely men that are out there, too, that are that are a part of that as well. And I think it’s it’s fascinating how many, you know, when you start to think of the most inspiring people that are out there, it’s, it’s, I want to start a list. It’s not the most powerful, it’s the most inspiring because it really, and typically, the most inspiring people are the people who would say that they had some scary times. Right. And I think that it’s it’s very inspiring lots of lessons and I so appreciate you being here to share so much. And Ella vest is awesome. Everyone will have all the info in the show notes too. But Sally, Krawczyk you are just a total badass and I really appreciate your time and and everything that you’re doing to support women, as well. So thank you,

Sallie Krawchek 37:52
Kara means a lot. Thank you so much for having me.

Kara Goldin 37:55
Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would, please give us a review. And feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin. And if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen. Or pick up a copy of my book on daunted which I share my journey, including founding and building hint. We are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And thanks everyone for listening. Have a great rest of the week, and 2023 and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening