Bill Snow: Author of Mergers & Acquisitions for Dummies

Episode 435

On today’s episode, we are joined by Bill Snow, Author of Mergers & Acquisitions for Dummies and an experienced M&A professional with over 30 years of professional experience, including almost two decades as an investment banker. We discuss his journey in the world of mergers and acquisitions (M&A), how to properly plan for a deal and avoid the most-likely pitfalls. Plus we discuss more from his book, Mergers & Acquisitions for Dummies including why acquisitions fail and what are some of the lurking problems for sellers. This episode is filled with a lot of learning for entrepreneurs, leaders and anyone who thinks they might be buying or selling a business one day. You don’t want to miss this episode. Now on #TheKaraGoldinShow.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, its Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show, I am so excited to have my next guest. Here we have Bill Snow, who is the author of an incredible book that I have right here in case you’re watching our video, author of mergers and acquisitions for dummies. And, and I don’t know if it’s for Dummies, but it’s definitely for people who want the basics. And even if you are a very intelligent, very knowledgeable person, there’s a ton of people who listen to the show who are leaders who are entrepreneurs, maybe you’re going to be going through this process at some point soon or in the in the future. This is an awesome book to have on your shelf. And pretty quick read but I think one that I’ll keep on my shelf too for reference, because it’s, it’s really, really that good. So, Bill has over 30 years of professional experience, including two decades as an investment banker, I look forward to discussing his journey in the world of mergers and acquisitions, but also how to properly plan for a deal and avoid the most likely pitfalls plus his latest book. As I said, mergers and acquisitions for Dummies is such great insights for you to go back. And look if you’re challenged with something right now. It’s probably in there if it has anything to do with m&a. So welcome, Bill.

Bill Snow 2:07
Thank you, Kara. Pleased to be here.

Kara Goldin 2:09
Very excited. So first of all, what inspired you to write this book

Bill Snow 2:15
being called by the publisher? They never a guy contacted me. And that’s that’s the story, which I’ve told before. I’ll be happy to give you a quick rundown. So I wrote a book on venture capital 20 years ago, because I was upset about a business deal that did not go well. And somebody said, what the blank do you know about venture capitals, I wrote this little thing that I turned into a little book didn’t know what to do with it, it was called Venture Capital One on One gave that away for free. It was a very minor viral hit before that was a term and all kinds of people were contacting me and I remember thinking if I knew what I was doing, I could do something with this. I was kinda like the dog that caught the car. And shortly after that, I segwayed into middle market investment banking. And then a few years after that, after I’d been doing the middle market m&a thing, Wiley Publishing, contacted me. So a book a copy of that little PDF that I little booklet I created, ended up at Wiley, they were looking for someone to write LBOs for Dummies, and after a long gestation that became mergers and acquisitions for Dummies, and we published initially in 11. And then the second edition just came out on May 31. Year this year 2023.

Kara Goldin 3:20
Well, it’s it’s so so good. It’s such an interesting thing. I’ve been an entrepreneur for years, and I know many entrepreneurs and when you’re actually taking money to grow your company, you philosophically I guess if nothing else know that you are going to need to have some sort of liquidity event whether you’re going doing an IPO or you’re potentially selling the company, yet. I think so many people just it’s a black box for them to actually go and hire a banker who is the banker that they should hire, what should the deal structure be all of these things? I love to your point in the book that talks about how selling a company is often easier than buying a company. Can you share a little bit more about that? Sure,

Bill Snow 4:07
sure. It’s actually the reason I turned down the offer to be an investment banker, I think I was offered the job four or five times and I turned it down and the founder of that firm caught me in a moment of weakness and I said, Okay, fine. Yes, I’ll be an investment banker stopped bothering me. Exaggerating really not that much. I didn’t really want to do I’ve done sales jobs before I didn’t really like that. You know, cold calling and dialing for dollars. Some people are good at that. That’s just not what I enjoy. I thought okay, well, we’ll give this a try. Well, the pleasant surprises you realize when you’re selling a company, which is a very limited resource, a difficult thing to find a decent company owner who wants to sell very hard to find the buyers in the middle market world far outnumber the number of sellers. This is different than any of those who are chasing venture capital. What do we know? The people seeking a venture capital far outnumber the VCs to the VC These are just inundated with business plans good, bad and indifferent. So the inverse turned out to be true, as I discovered a middle market investment banking. Now why is that? The analogy that I make or the hypothetical rather that I always say is think of somebody who’s say 45, owns his own business is very happy makes a lot of money. He made a couple of million last year as plenty of money in the bank is married. Happily, married, kids are young, healthy, everyone’s doing fine. And he jumps out of work, or she can be woman, obviously, she jumps out at work in the morning and can’t wait to get to work. What are you going to offer that person who’s making great money loves what he or she is doing every single day? 45 years old? What am I going to do for the next 40 years of my life, you can’t offer that person enough money. And so the mistake that I think a lot of buyers make is they view the m&a game is going to grocery store pushing a cart down the aisle and trying to decide what can of soup a can of beans to select. And what they have to realize roles are reversed. The seller, the business owners are the one pushing the cart, and the can of beans, the product, the commodity are the buyers, then quite often, especially for a good company, the decision to what partner to take what buyer to take rests with the seller.

Kara Goldin 6:09
So interesting. So what are kind of practical strategies to deal with that? I mean, I guess it’s interesting, I was talking to somebody the other day, who sold their company and PTAC. And the key thing that he said is that he sort of visualize being on that other side of the table, like why do they need me? And what is that that’s going to actually help them in some ways. And he said, it’s amazing how you can kind of envision why your company because you know what your company is and what the value is, but also how it could really help them that they may not recognize,

Bill Snow 6:48
yeah, well, we call it strategic imperative finding a buyer. So if you’re selling remember, there’s two sides to the trade. Here, you’ve got the seller, you’ve got the buyer, and I’ve worked on both sides at the same time, which is helpful, and you buy companies as well. But trying to find that buyer who has that strategic imperative. So you have a company, you put it together, you put the materials together, rather the financials, the story of the products, history of the company, the executive team, separate types of customers, and so forth. And then what you want to do is get multiple offers. And if you get multiple offers, buyers will typically look at that. And say they’ll ask a lot of questions. There’s a lot of information in the book we put together, confidential information memorandum, or sim, they’re typically called. And they will quite often these companies that are for sale have been on a shortlist Yeah, we’re familiar with that. We’ve seen it at trade shows, yeah, we’ve always thought about that. So they might see something, they might see a company that, wow, they’ve got a great product in a sector that we don’t cover, this is really plugging a hole if we make this acquisition or they’re selling to a cohort of buyers that we don’t have access to, that would open up our salespeople not just for the products we’re acquiring, but for the products that we’re selling right now. So there could be a lot of different reasons value add strategic imperative, as we call it, that a buyer might have. And it’s up to the buyer to see that. And usually they do see that and that’s why if you run a process and you get multiple offers, you’ll see a trading band where different groups have no idea the other exists in the valuation, the structure is quite similar. And quite often, you’ll see that one outlier, and that’s the one that see some sort of strategic imperative, the need to do the deal more than other people.

Kara Goldin 8:24
I have so many questions, but in no particular order, I’ll probably fire some off here. And many of them you talk about in the book as well. But so in an m&a process, you may have private equity sitting there, and you may also have strategics. Can you explain kind of the difference of of, of what that looks like for an entrepreneur?

Bill Snow 8:49
Sure. And it’s a great question. And one of the things that we always ask an entrepreneur or business owner, what are you looking to accomplish? Because that’s where it should start? What are you looking to to get done? Do you want to sell the business entirely and be out, you’re going to work a transition period, perhaps, but you want to retire and move off to Florida or Arizona or something like that? Are you looking to create some liquidity, maybe sell a minority stake or majority stake, hold on to 2030 40% of the company work for a few more years and then sell it so it starts with what they want to do a strategic buyer quite often not always want to buy the entire company, maybe the strategic buyer has management team and can tuck the existing business into their operation. Sometimes not sometimes they run lean, and they’re going to need to have a new GM or president come in there. But they’re typically gonna want to buy the whole thing and maybe they’ll buy it over a period of time and help create some value and pay some more over a period of time. But they’re going to want to own the whole thing. private equity firm is quite often might want to buy the whole company might want to say that we’ll buy 70% We would like you to hold on to 30% of the company. We’ll work together and for Five, six years, we’ll look at selling maybe to a strategic or larger private equity firm, and then you get the second, the so called second bite of the apple. So it really depends on what the buyer is looking to accomplish.

Kara Goldin 10:11
And how do valuations vary with those different types of buyers as well.

Bill Snow 10:18
Typically, the strategics, were paying a higher valuation higher multiple, but we’re seeing so much, especially over the last decade, decade and a half with with low interest rates, obviously, we’ve been raising interest rates more recently. But that that low interest rate environment zero interest rate policy ZIRP flooded the market with with money, everybody had capital, the cost of obtaining capital was really low. And what happened is that created a lot more demand that doesn’t necessarily increase supplies, we said, if you’re talking to someone has a nice business, what am I going to do you know, somebody, I can get a lot of money, I’m making a lot of money, I’m totally happy, what am I going to do with my life, I’m not going to sell, you couldn’t offer me enough money to sell the business. And so what that did is that tended to put the valuations up. And so quite often we’re seeing private equity firms bidding higher than, than what we saw before because there’s so I don’t wanna say desperate, but they have a strong initiative to get that money out in working. And so quite often we’ll see them being the strongest bidders in terms of the valuation of the deal.

Kara Goldin 11:21
So you mentioned the cost of money and and especially in today’s economy, what helps and what hurts a company’s valuation, when you look at, you know, the structure, you know, maybe it’s the the comps on a on a category or it within an industry, but I’m super curious if that’s changed significantly, in the last year and a half.

Bill Snow 11:47
Yeah, the what helps and hurts valuation is gonna be pretty much pretty much the same. So what helps valuation is a growing company, growing bottom line EBIT die at least 10%, the higher the better, of course, diversified customer base, so no concentrations with a big customer. No issues with vendors. In other words, they’re not a single source, supplier, they’ve got multiple sources, and those vendors don’t have any financial weakness. And an owner, this is this is one of the most difficult things, especially for middle market, lower middle market companies, and owner who is expendable. So quite often that owner, that entrepreneur has been the center point of the company, maybe he’s in charge of sales, or all the sales go through him or her. That person is in charge of design, overseeing everything, every almost every facet of the business goes to that person, well, you take that person out of the puzzle, what do you have left, you’re going to be struggling. And so it’s difficult for business owners, I think sometimes to take that step back. But if they can take that step back, make themselves expendable, where they’re not needed, the company actually will be worth more, what hurts a company, the opposite of all that. So an owner that is viewed as integral to the success of the business, a big concentration with a customer, low margin business might hurt the smaller company, certainly, if the company is in declining sales, or the profits are decreasing, that’s going to hurt and that might be a falling knife, in which case, it might be almost impossible to find a buyer buyers are typically wait until the knife hits the ground before picking it up.

Kara Goldin 13:17
Interesting. So do you leave the the owners in then? Like I mean, if you’re sitting there trying to figure out what is the strategy, then you know, you’re gonna go and get some liquidity and, and sell the company but you leave the owners in? Or do you? If you think that that’s going to harm the company, I mean, rather than actually, you know, ripping the band aid off, I guess, knowing that maybe that person is not going to be in in a private equity or strategic for a long period of time. What do you do?

Bill Snow 13:48
Well, good question. And, and again, that depends what the owner is looking to do. So I want to get out entirely. Okay, fine. You know, I’m happy to work six months a year, whatever reasonable transition, of course, I want to make sure the company is successful new owner, I care about my employees, but I want to retire and I want to be out entirely. So we want to communicate that to the buyers. We’re not interested in selling 60 70% of the business. The owner wants to sell 100% of the business, the owner is not interested in working for multiple years, you’re going and the owner is very important. So you know what you’re going to need to find a new president to run the business. You have to disclose all of that upfront. And what happens is some buyers might say, that’s not for us, you know, we want to buy a majority piece but we want to see that owner have a sizable ownership stake, work for another four or 567 years, whatever and then maybe retire. We don’t have anybody that we can plug in. Other groups might say that’s perfect. We want to do the Vulcan mind meld and get all the information we can out of the owner and then push him aside to her side. We’ve got a new president, someone we’ve been looking to put in or promoted sometimes private equity firms will back and executive So they have somebody they really like he’s been successful running companies. And that PE firm and that executive will partner together to find a company. So in other words, a company that says the owner wants to sell 70%, I want to stick around for five more years, probably not going to work for that PE firm with an executive person who wants to retire and get out entirely would be a good fit, if that PE firm is backing and executive and is looking for the right type of investment.

Kara Goldin 15:23
So what are some of the real real reasons why M and A deals do not close? We hear about failed processes along the way. You know, what, what is your take on that?

Bill Snow 15:36
Yeah, a number of things. The biggest is an adverse material change. So what’s that a big customer. This is our 30% customer just fired us. So that is going to be obviously a big diminishment to revenue and profit, that might scuttle deals or certainly caused buyers to reprice deals or maybe just walk away. Shifting Sands, I call it that’s when an owner says you can run some numbers and say, Yeah, we think it will trade at 20 million, let’s say, and you start getting offers in their upper teens, low 20s. Okay, it’s right around where we thought, and the owner says I want $100 million. Well, that’s the shifting sands, okay, that that’s great, I’m not going to be able to get that it’s a nice business, it’s worth about 20, someone’s not going to pay that. So we’ll see that as well. The falling knife is as I mentioned before, so a business that is losing revenue and is in a decline, that’s going to be difficult to find a buyer, they’re going to wait until things bottom out and the business starts to to come up again.

Kara Goldin 16:34
Interesting. So today, obviously profitability EBIT DA is really critical. I feel like most bankers say that it sort of goes in waves. But if you maintain or error can actually grow the EBIT on your growth has gone down. Like how do you think that is viewed?

Bill Snow 16:54
The revenues have dropped, but the EBIT da has gone up. You want the very specific MBA answer very precise answer. Let’s hear it. It depends. It depends. Yeah. Okay. So that we’d have to look at what’s going on. What’s driving that? Has this been a change where we have a new technique to create the product that we’re selling or new source for the raw materials? Is this decline in sales just driven by something short term? Or does this augur a declining market that’s going to go out of business? Okay, so we’re the old buggy whip. analogy, right? Are we making buggy whips? Are we making payphone boots? Why? Why is the revenue going down? So you’d have to understand on a case by case basis, why that revenue is going down? And if the profits are going up, that would be a unique situation. But you’d have to understand on a very specific granular level, what’s driving that? What’s going on?

Kara Goldin 17:50
Is there a category or industry that seems to be kind of foolproof, for being able to sell today? I guess I always hear about the beauty industry that it just seems like those are there’s always buyers for beauty products. And so curious what you think about is there any industry that, you know, is is foolproof?

Bill Snow 18:14
Yeah, the foolproof is good company, good company owner with reasonable expectations. You can look at what’s going on, you know, what was Warren Buffett say, you know, invest in what you know, so he’s buying what Dairy Queen and Coca Cola things that he likes, okay? And you can look at that, well, what’s going to be what’s going to be changing in terms of this product or this this service. And those are much more larger systemic issues, but a good company. So in other words, if the company is growing, the revenue is growing, the profits are growing at at roughly a commensurate level. And it’s well run doesn’t have any concentrations and you have an owner who’s reasonable with expectations. I’m not saying give it away or or take a cut rate price, but reasonable expectations, good company owner with reasonable expectations, pretty close to 100% chance you’re gonna get a really good deal.

Kara Goldin 19:07
So quality of earnings reports enhancing the value of the company. I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about that.

Bill Snow 19:16
Sure, sure. Yeah, that’s something that years ago I used to poopoo Oh, I don’t need a quality of earnings. I’ll just negotiate anything that’s just you know, 40 5060 grand that the owner is going to have to spend but what has happened is we’ve had this and I’ve called it Frankenstein’s monsters be adjustments to EBIT da so EBIT does not even GAAP, it was invented by a executive in the cable business years ago as a way to measure the profitability of the business if you took away borrowing money and paying taxes and depreciating assets over a period of time and things like that if it was just doing what it’s supposed to do in a vacuum basically. So now we’ve introduced adjustments to EBIT da What’s that adding back one time only expenses, adding back The owners compensation if the owner can go away and you don’t need to replace him or making it an adjustment, that okay, the owner took out a million bucks, you could find somebody for 300. That’s 700,000 adjustment, things like that timing issues. That’s what the quality of earnings will do. We’ll set up that those expenses really those add backs really are add backs are really one time only. And that’s important because quite often adjusted EBIT, dA is what drives the valuation, not just EBIT, da, but adjustments to EBIT, da, the audits and reviews that accounting firms do, which are very helpful, that sets up an explanation of EBIT, da, you can figure out the EBIT da calculation, when you have an audit or a review, the quality of earnings helps quantify the adjustments to earnings adjustments to EBIT da, and that sets up quite often what the valuation would be. So that’s why I highly encourage anybody looking to sell a business, do a sell side quality of earnings report, have that prepared before you go to market. And this way, you’ll have your account in on your staff, you’ll have the investment banker, and you’ll have the accounting firm that did the QV being able to support those numbers, that allows us to say to a buyer, here’s how we view earnings of the business. After you take it over. We have a report by reputable firm, what the earnings will look like when you take it over. And so we have the buyer instead of us responding to what the buyer might come up with the buyers responding to what we’re coming up with. We’re grabbing that high ground and making them fight appeal,

Kara Goldin 21:30
so to speak. And that’s called a

Bill Snow 21:34
quality of earnings report. qv.

Kara Goldin 21:36
Okay, and that is in that is your existing who does that for you?

Bill Snow 21:42
Well, you’re the accounting firm. And this This is great, because now you can hire another accounting firm. So you can use your incumbent firm, that’s that’s not a problem. But we do recommend a third party, yet another accounting firm to do that, just to have that independent voice. And accounting firms, reputable accounting firms are used to this. So we’re doing the review for the firm. And now another firm is going to come in and do the QV. Well guess what that reputable firm that’s doing a review is probably doing Cuvees for other companies that are being represented by the second accounting firm.

Kara Goldin 22:15
So your bond, you’re hiring a an investment banker to help you actually sell your company. Is there a normal compensation that that that investment bankers gonna get? I mean, if you’re at a tier a firm versus a smaller, maybe that is one compensation. But I’m so curious, like, what is the range?

Bill Snow 22:43
That we make? Yes. No, that secret, we can’t tell you that it’s you’re going to pay it depends from firm to firm, the bigger the firm, I mean, in terms of depends firm to firm. But in terms of the company that you’re selling, the bigger the company, probably the the fee, the success fee, as a percentage will be smaller, a smaller company, that success fee, as a percentage will probably be bigger. So it’s usually somewhere around 3%, three and a half percent, something like that. Now, if it’s a really big firm, where these the proceeds might be in the hundreds of millions of dollars, then investment banker is probably going to take a a smaller fee 2% 1%. Again, it really depends. A smaller transaction, that maybe is a three $4 million dollar transaction, that fee might end up being six, eight 10%, which seems like a lot. Because just because it’s a smaller deal does not mean less work is involved, quite often the smaller transactions are a lot more difficult. So it really I put 3% is kind of your guidepost, the bigger, the bigger the deal, maybe that comes down a little bit, the smaller the deal, maybe that that fee is gonna go up a little bit, too.

Kara Goldin 23:58
So now that I’ve got your book, do I even need an investment banker? Right, yeah, one of the things that that I have been asked is, and I know people who have been able to go out to people that they think had shown interest or they should have interest. Do you need one? Sure.

Bill Snow 24:18
Sure. You don’t need us I think it’s highly recommended that you hire an advisor, when you’re engaging in probably the largest transaction of your career. You don’t have to but numerous reasons why you’d want to work with a reputable investment banking firm. One is the buffer between the buyer and seller. So quite often the seller might be upset with something the buyer is doing or trying to do. And without that buffer, maybe that deal gets well I’ve had that happen where if the my client the seller was talking with the buyer, the deal would have been over the the string of obscenities and insults would have just killed it. Well I can be the buffer and I can deliver that mess. Sit in a more professional manner. Confidentiality is another reason. So you hire an investment banking firm, well, we reach out to a buyer, the buyer doesn’t know who we’re representing, we’ll send them a teaser. It’s a blind teaser. Sometimes they can reverse engineer, but they’re not going to know, when you’re the president of a company and you call up another company, they’re going to know that your company, you can’t have that, that confidentiality. A full time focus is something else. So if you’re running a business, trying to sell a business, put all the materials together, set up a data room, go through due diligence and negotiate everything that is a full time job going through all the offers sorting them out, negotiating, you’ve got a full time job running the business. So you should hire people who will be able to focus full time on doing the transaction that you’re looking to do.

Kara Goldin 25:46
I’ve heard buyers say that they don’t want to be a part of a process. So they won’t actually show up for processes are they say that they’re never part of a process? I’m sure you’ve heard that in the past. How real is that? And obviously, or maybe not obvious to people like why is that that people say that? And are they bluffing? Are they? What do you think about that statement?

Bill Snow 26:14
Sure. Well, that kind of gets into the valuation aspect. And so valuation is I’ve told people, it’s a very complicated formula, Cara, it largely depends upon what side I’m representing. That’s a joke. The reason that you wouldn’t want to get into a process is you’re gonna have multiple bidders, multiple buyers, and only one company that’s for sale. So it’s not like having a factory where you’re cranking out some sort of widget, oh, we’ve got great demand, well, let’s hire another shift, let’s get some more raw materials, let’s crank out let’s get a second shift going and crank out more of this because we want to meet the market demand. When you’re selling a company, you have just one company, you can’t replicate it, it’s one and done. And so the buyers, sometimes they’ll they’ll get into a process and they’ll submit the initial offer, we call that an indication of interest. But a lot of times they they don’t they want to have a proprietary deal where it’s ours, I’m trying to work out a deal with the owner, they’re not talking to anybody else, because I’m going to be putting time and spending money and so forth investing before we even get this thing done. And I want to have a high probability that I’m the one that if it’s either me, or nobody.

Kara Goldin 27:23
So best tips and tactics for actually getting getting a deal done and hoping that it doesn’t fall out of the process, I guess hope is not a strategy. So. Yes. Right. So you talk a little bit about that in the book, but I’d love to sort of close it out with that question for you.

Bill Snow 27:45
Communication, disclosure. Honesty. Okay. There’s there’s nothing wrong with with being a tough negotiator. Okay, but you can’t lose your head, you can’t scream yell I’m talking about about both sides, you want to be reasonable. I found that negotiating is probably my favorite part of this. It’s not, it’s not bluffing. It’s not demanding. It’s not screaming, that doesn’t get anything done. It’s explaining the reason why you need to do something in a certain way, or why you want to get something that goes I think a lot farther if you have a good rapport with the other side, to be able to get the deal done. If you’re a buyer. Yeah, if you can get a proprietary deal. I think that’s important, the buyer should start with what are you looking for? And I think a mistake buyers make is they just cast this wide net, I’ll look at anything Well, maybe you should look at some specific reasons. And then reach out to specific companies on a shortlist and have a thesis of reason why listen, if we acquire you or we combine in this way or that way, here’s what we think we can do. Here’s what we’re seeing in the market, I would love to get your opinion. And then on the other side, for sellers who are looking to sell, put together their plan, what are you looking to accomplish, put together a list of buyers there, you can cast a wider net, and some might self select, you know, it’s part of a process we’re not interested, others aren’t afraid of that, hey, looks like a good fit, we want to make a go at this business. So it really depends, again, what the seller wants to do or what the buyer when you’re looking at the buy side what the what that company what that acquisition minded company is looking to accomplish.

Kara Goldin 29:13
Bill, this is a lot of wisdom. Incredible to, to have you here as a voice of reason and knowledge for sure. Mergers and acquisitions for Dummies is awesome. And like I said, whether you’re looking at selling a company today or in the future, or you just want to be armed with being able to go to dinner with somebody who has, this is an awesome book that is is really, really terrific. So thank you so much. We’ll have all the info on Bill and also the book in the show notes too. So thank you so much.

Bill Snow 29:50
Thank you care.

Kara Goldin 29:51
Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit And of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin. And if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen. Or pick up a copy of my book undaunted, which I share my journey, including founding and building hint. We are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. And thanks everyone for listening. Have a great rest of the week, and 2023 and goodbye for now. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening

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Eric Dawson: CEO of RIVET

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Kim Vaccarella: Founder & CEO of Bogg