Perkins Miller: CEO of Fandom

Episode 603

On this episode of The Kara Goldin Show, I’m joined by Perkins Miller, CEO of Fandom, the world's largest fan platform for entertainment and gaming, as they celebrate their 20th anniversary this month! Perkins shares the incredible evolution of Fandom from its early days as Wikia to becoming the go-to platform for fans worldwide, boasting over 350 million unique visitors per month. We dive into how Fandom has carved out its space in the media landscape, providing a deep, engaging experience for fans of pop culture, gaming, TV, and film.
Perkins offers an inside look at how Fandom balances user experience with monetization and the role of advertising in supporting the platform. We also discuss Fandom's unique approach to community management and content moderation, ensuring that it remains a positive and inclusive space for fans. Perkins sheds light on how Fandom is embracing AI, virtual reality, and the metaverse to enhance fan engagement, as well as the strategies behind their key acquisitions that have amplified the platform's offerings.
As Fandom marks two decades of bringing fans and creators together, Perkins shares how they’re celebrating this milestone and what the future holds for the platform. Tune in to hear Perkins’ insights on how Fandom is navigating the rapidly changing media landscape, maintaining the integrity of its user-generated content, and what's next for this dynamic platform. If you’re a fan of anything pop culture or interested in the intersection of media, technology, and community, you won’t want to miss this episode! Now on The Kara Goldin Show.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be you. Just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out, knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control. Control. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really, some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Kara Goldin show. Super excited and really, really thrilled to have our next guest here. Perkins Miller is the CEO of Fandom, and if you don’t know what Fandom is, you are gonna be so excited to hear all about this company and Perkins journey, building it. They are celebrating their 20th anniversary. I can’t believe that. I feel like, where did the time go? I should say, but I mean, really, really incredible. You guys have come a long way since the early days of wakia, which was the original name for it and evolving into the world’s largest platform where fans of entertainment and gaming can immerse themselves in imagined worlds with more than 350 million unique visitors each month, and hosting over 300,000 wikis. So Fandom has become the go to source for in depth information on pop culture, gaming, TV and film, and Perkins is at the helm of this incredible platform, steering it through the complexities of today’s media landscape, while keeping fans at the heart of everything they do. And like I said, 20th Anniversary really, really awesome. So we’re going to dive into the evolution of Fandom and how it’s grown and adapted over the years and what the future holds. And Perkins, so excited that you’re here to share a lot more with us. Well, great

Perkins Miller 2:15
to be here. Kara excited,

Kara Goldin 2:16
very excited. So let’s start with the basics. So what is Fandom?

Perkins Miller 2:23
So Fandom at its core is this wiki platform, which you mentioned. So Jimmy Wales, who is also the founder of Wikipedia, had this platform 20 years ago. And you know, Wikipedia, as you know, is dedicated to, you know, trying to find the, you know, credible truth and effectively be the Encyclopedia of the world. And there’s you know, very dedicated admins and editors that support, you know, Wikipedia to ensure that it is doing the best job it can to kind of reflect what’s going on in the world. And he turned around said, What about if we just sort of let the platform loose into these imagined worlds? And said, hey, you know, if you love movies and TV and anime or whatever you’d like, let’s, let’s see what we might be able to do in terms of documenting and being a reference source to the more creative side of the world. And that started wiki, and over the years, folks you know jumped on it and created things like Wikipedia, which is the world’s largest dedicated platform for Star Wars, or Memory Alpha, which is one of my favorites, which is all dedicated to Star Trek. You know, we have Minecraft, or we have, you know, Call of Duty. We have lots of gaming wikis as well. And so what people do is come on and, you know, they when a new game comes out, or a DLC an update comes out, or a new movie comes out, they’ll go in and document it and talk about it and describe the characters and talk about the canon or the lore of it. And I, you know, TPG, the private equity firm, and myself, we kind of got involved about five and a half years ago, TPG, about six years ago, because we thought there was, you know, even more to be done here. And so we’ve been focused on growing this core platform, but also, you know, trying to super serve these fan groups because, you know, we think that they’re kind of underserved in a way. You know, a lot of people talk about sports or music, but you know, really, there’s huge culture around Gaming and Anime and movies and TV that people just don’t necessarily see. And so we’ve also purchased a e commerce platform called fanatical. We have media businesses such as Metacritic and TV Guide. So we’ve basically tried to think of, what could we do to super serve fans. But at the core is this wiki platform that, again, was started 20 years ago by Jimmy

Kara Goldin 4:40
and such community. I mean, what you guys are doing is it’s just wild at how it’s evolved over the last 20 years. So hosting 1000s of wikis and reaching millions of users. What role do you see it playing in the current landscape of media and media comp? 90s, I should say, especially in a time when media is just changing like crazy. I mean, it’s, you mentioned TV Guide. I mean it’s, it’s, I mean, so much has changed. I mean the fact that Time Magazine and is a Benioff company. I mean, who would have thought, right? So where do you see this? Or I should say, what role do you see Fandom playing in the current landscape of media companies?

Perkins Miller 5:25
I think there’s probably two pieces to it. So, you know, on the one hand, we, you know, we have what we would likely consider more traditional media, and that’s TV Guide and Metacritic, GameSpot, game facts. You know, really, the one that is probably more reflective of what you’d consider sort of a traditional media business is probably Gamespot, which really covers, you know, the gaming industry and does reviews and talks about stories and new games coming out, and that’s very much kind of in sync with more traditional media. But the rest of our focus really is much more about platform because, you know, I think what we want to do is try to be a source of catalyst, you know, for people who love movies, TVs, games and so you think about TV Guide. It’s about listings so you can find what to watch. Metacritic is the world’s largest combined source of ratings and recommendation around gaming and TV. And so we really think about it, about this kind of utility first, and less so about kind of this media which would be more traditional, you know, writers, talking about the industry. We do think it’s very important to have writers, and we, you know, have tremendous talent on the on the business, but we also think there’s a real role for users to play, whether it’s rating a game or creating a wiki or being in a chat on a wiki. So those are the I think this balance between having media written, which I think definitely has a role to play, but I think equally important as this platform the ability for people to, you know, share their voice and their experience around what they’re watching or playing.

Kara Goldin 7:04
So Fandom has such a massive community of super fans and creators. What’s one of the coolest ways you’ve seen the fans and creators connect and create something on the platform?

Perkins Miller 7:20
Jeez, I you know, there are so many, you know, different instances of it. I think, you know there’s, there’s some, like the Marvel database, for example. So, you know, we have the most accurate, you know, timeline of everything Marvel centric, from the true comic books you know, out to, you know, what makes up the Marvel universe today, which is more theatrical release. So being able to sort of see the connective tissue between the comic IP, which really is sort of the foundational IP of Marvel, to how Kevin Feige and Feige, you know, was able to express it in theatrical release, so that, I think is really pretty amazing, and so I think probably the one that jumps out at me, but there’s also Elder Scrolls, for example, as a game being played, there’s a community of folks there who are so diligent around helping people play. And the other thing I’d say that’s interesting that most people may not expect, is the number of discord integrations. We have about 9000 instances of discord integrated into our wikis. So folks who are coming in and are passionate and want to be able to sort of reference the canon, you know, of a given story, they actually go and use their server as a group to talk about it. And so we kind of enable that connection app, and so those are, those are a few things that I think are pretty cool.

Kara Goldin 8:44
So everyone’s talking about AI these days. How does AI play into Fandom and the overall maybe the Creator experience, but also the overall company?

Perkins Miller 8:58
Well, we, we kind of approach. It probably in two or three ways. So, you know, one is purely operational. So how can we make sure the platform is healthy and safe? And so we use it for moderation, and it’s actually been quite productive to sort of keep track of things that might be appearing that we want to keep, you know, make sure in line with our values and our terms of service. We use it operationally, you know, to do our work more efficiently. There’s, I even use, you know, chat, GPT 401, did sort of do plot graphs and analysis, because it, you know, it helps me go a little faster and and make more progress that I otherwise would have to ask somebody to do for me, which I think is mean someone can do something much more important than trying to help me do something. And then, you know, on the, you know, on the content side that we tend to, we’re kind of laying a pretty wide berth there, because I think that, you know, we, we believe the voice of our users and the voice of the fans are really important and and that’s what people want to hear. Still they want to. Hear somebody talking about how a game plays, or rating a movie, you know, from their human point of view, as opposed to saying, Okay, what does the AI say? So in that case, we’re, you know, trying to say, look, we want to make sure that there’s a voice of the fan is first and foremost, not the voice of the AI. So we think about, as you know, as it will back to the question of utilities. What utility can it provide? Could it help? For example, someone answer a question using the voice of the fan to do so well. There may be instances where that utility could be helpful, using it in our search. So there’s things that we’re exploring there. We think about game play, for example. So we have, you know, literally 1000s of game guides on our platform which sort of help you play video games and kind of get through a hurdle you may be unable to leap across. So how do you do that? Maybe we can use AI to sort of make that more of an easier utility than the text we’re using today. So things like that are very top of mind for us right now, but it, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a really fast moving river right now, and we’re doing our best to navigate it, probably first on the operational basis and and then thinking second about utility, like, how can we make it a better fan experience?

Kara Goldin 11:14
So Fandom has become the go to source for pop culture and gaming. When do you think that in this 20 year journey, when do you think that they could actually put a stake in the ground and say, Yeah, we are the go to source. Maybe the founders in the in the early days were always say, We’re the go to source. But when do you really think that there was that spike where you thought, Okay, we’re doing it right at this point.

Perkins Miller 11:45
Well, I mean, I got to give credit to Jimmy and the team initially, you know, as they said, This is a platform that’s going to be a great utility for folks. And I, you know, really, I think through, you know, 2017 16, it was starting to do get more and more traction. You know, I do think there was some credit to be given because we combined Fandom wiki platforms with a platform called Gamepedia. And Gamepedia was a real deep reference source, really dedicated to some of the gaming wikis. And we brought those two businesses together. And so that was, you know, something that happened in 2019 and so that, for me, again, represented probably a really good sense that we’ve been able to consolidate the reference resource, combining Gaming and Anime and movie and TV lovers. So that’s probably a good, a good benchmark. And we’ve been able to, you know, growth through there from there. So if I had to sort of pick a point in time, probably you’re, you know, there’s a good inflection point back in 2007 2008 and then probably another one right around 2019 and we ran into the pandemic to where, you know, folks relied on that platform to help navigate the entertainment hunger. Yes, folks were having to change some behaviors. I

Kara Goldin 12:55
asked because, as you know, the you know, the overnight success stories are not necessarily what they are, right. Or I should say that the brands that are out there, people think, oh yeah, they were just an overnight success. But things take time, right, and especially when you are as you are, so consumer driven, right? User driven, I guess, is the term. But what do you think really gives it that secret sauce, like, why are fans keep coming back for more and more and more?

Perkins Miller 13:32
Well, I think that we have a very authentic source of really credible information. You know this. And you know, people, I think, come at it, you know, as they pick up a game they’re playing, or they’re going to re watch something they love, Fandom becomes this really critical foundational resource to them, or they’re, you know, looking to buy a new game, and so that’s something that they’ll go to fanatical because we spend a lot of time figuring out the right game bundle that’ll make gameplay more fun. Or they’ll go to Metacritic because they really want to understand what the broader view of ratings are for a given game. So I think, you know, fans come to us because I think we they know we have the really credible, authentic content, and we really focus on this idea of, like, utility. Are we being useful? And I think that, for me, is, is the grounding of it? You know, our values are, you know, we’re community first. So are we serving our community? And then the second value we have is building. So are we building the tools that enable the community to connect, and, you know, capture their fan love. And then the final one is joy. You know. The other thing is, we don’t take ourselves very seriously, you know. You know, God bless the folks who are. You know, creating vaccines and, you know, working world hunger. You know, we’re out here, you know, with wikis and games and, you know, celebrating entertainment. So this idea of joy is. Really central to what we do, so that, I think also we try to make sure comes through. So if you’re, I think, serving a community and building good tools and doing so with a smile on your face, it tends to show up in the work you do.

Kara Goldin 15:11
So Fandom hosts a vast amount of user generated content. How do you ensure that the platform may remains inclusive and manages toxicity effectively. How better to say that? I’m not sure, but to keep the bad stuff out. I mean, how do you how do you do that without having too heavy of a of a hand, I guess, in in the view of users,

Perkins Miller 15:43
I think what makes Fandom just a great place to be is that the content that’s central to who we are is, is these imagined worlds. So the, you know, we’re not, you know, fortunately, dealing with some of the tougher conflicts that may be going on in society today, you know, we’re talking about Kirk and Spock. You know we’re talking about, you know, whether or not you know the wizard has the keys to the gate that you need. I mean, these are things that are entirely trivial and wonderful the same time. And so the community, you know, really is focused on these imagined worlds. And so, you know, of course, there’s always going to be instances where, you know, you’ve got a bad apple. But for the most part, everybody here is really focused on celebrating the things they love, and movies, TV and anime. And so that’s what the comments tend to anchor towards, and the content anchor towards and and so the community is actually pretty, pretty good at self policing and saying, hey, you know what? That’s not who we are. And you know, you don’t belong here with that kind of attitude. So we because, by the way, go back to, you know, we’re on Wikipedia talking about Han Solo. I mean, you know, so it’s not like there’s a lot of contribution to be sort of anchored around Han Solo. It’s really about, oh, what’s his character like as a mercenary? What has he done? So those are the content types that really, you know, we have on the platform that attract people to want to just talk and celebrate those so

Kara Goldin 17:11
you’ve made a number of acquisitions over the years. I think there’s always as a as an entrepreneur there. There’s always this, this thinking, you know, maybe we should go acquire somebody, maybe not initially, but maybe as you’re starting to grow, you start thinking, gosh, we should figure out if there’s something there that we should bring in to our company, whether it’s, you know, talent or users, or whatever it is. How do you think about acquisitions? And as a CEO of a you know, incredible company that has lots of different communities, but obviously you guys have have made some plays there. How do you think about acquisitions?

Perkins Miller 18:02
Well, I go back to the kind of core, you know, values that we have, you know, community. So if we acquire a business, is it serving communities that are central to us? So, you know, so far we’ve, you know, not gone after knitting communities or, you know, NASCAR communities, because they’re not really those communities exist and they’re wonderful, but they’re not core to the communities we’re trying to celebrate. So the acquisition, for example, fanatical a gaming e commerce business, you know, our communities of gamers buy games. So it was a pretty easy, you know, hey, you know, it’d be helpful, as if we’re able to help them, you know, find the games they like. And then we bought Metacritic and GameSpot, because, Oh, guess what? Fans want to know what games to buy and are they good. And so we’re able to sort of, you know, use this test, you know, are we getting something that serves our community? And if it does, then it seems to be something we pursue. And in that way, it makes integration a lot easier, because you’ve already got the connective tissue around purpose. So you know that you’re buying something that’s going to serve your audience and your community, so you’re not trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. And that’s been something that’s been helpful to us over the last few years, as we’ve done acquisitions

Kara Goldin 19:18
so Fandoms, 20th anniversary. What’s the most outrageous or fun way that you’re going to be celebrating and making this milestone with the fans? Well,

Perkins Miller 19:32
I mean, I’m as I’m very nerdy in certain segments, and so I’m already out there. I was at our San Diego Comic Con party. So we do the largest party at San Diego Comic Con. And every year I put on, you know, some version of a Star Trek commander uniform. And so you can go see me. I’m posing, usually somewhere on our faux red carpet wearing my Star Trek commander gear. And so I, you know, I’m happy to celebrate my nerdum. You know, I That for me is, is a great platform, and that great franchise that I think, just as I’ve been fans of it for 20 plus years, and so that, for me is a way I can serve, in my own way, celebrate it. And I also just love some of the IP that’s come out this year. I mean, dune two is one of my favorite movies, because, again, see sci fi nerd them that I represent. So those things we’re doing, and I think we, of course, we’ve got some other things coming up. We’ve got San Diego, New York Comic Con, which basically is the East Coast version. And we’re doing a big event on Friday, I think it’s going to be the 18th of October. So that’s exciting coming up, to keep the, you know, the train going around our 20th anniversary.

Kara Goldin 20:44
So the gaming division within fanatical you touched on that a bit, but it’s, it’s pretty incredible. So how do you see it fitting into sort of the future of Fandom,

Perkins Miller 20:59
as I mentioned before. I mean, it’s really goes to the core purpose and mission of the business around fans. So, you know, right now we have, you know, almost a million people buying video games from us, and that is something that we think can continue to grow. And you have a team of folks who spend a lot of time creatively thinking about, you know, these different gamer groups, and they create these bundles. We even have this thing called a mystery bundle, where we serve offer you a for very small amount of money, a collection of games which you actually don’t know what you’re going to get. And so we and it’s incredibly popular, because it’s like this, this mystery unboxings. You buy these games from us in these categories, and you get a set of games to play. And so I think for us, again, it represents that joy that I think we embrace around this entertainment world. You know, it’s, it’s got to be fun and And so that idea of bundling and continue to scale, that is what we’re focused on. And I think there’s other opportunity for us to think about, you know, how we think about fan fiction, the folks want to be able to buy books with from us that are again aligned to the genre. And I read a ton of like fantasy, weird fiction and sci fi. So I love that genre, and I know how much great art there is out there. So I think we’ve got even more room to grow around fanatical and this idea that there’s a commerce hub that really serves these really core fan interests, which, again, may not be readily apparent to folks who are in the kind of, quote, broader mainstream, but they’re there, and they’re quite large. So those are, that’s sort of the things we’re focused on with fanatical,

Kara Goldin 22:32
gosh, just community has changed so much over the years, I would imagine that you’ve been able to even see the trends of, you know, it’s like, it’s a, I mean, back when, I mean, not to get make myself too prehistoric, but back when we were kids and we played games. I mean, you never had the opportunities that you do now, to be able to communicate with people from literally all over the world. Do you see your audience actually getting coming with you? Or I should say that they’re taking your platform with them as they want to explore more and more. I mean, I would imagine that there’s not really a cutoff when people just stop. I mean, that they just keep finding as long as they can find communities, it seems like Fandom is, is it? They’ll keep coming back?

Perkins Miller 23:27
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. And I think we really do see ourselves more as a mirror to entertainment. You know, we want to make sure that that mirror is clean and as well, polished, so folks can see that our communities reflected and and so we’re and what we’ve seen over the course of the last, you know, five or six years is just how much these communities start to even galvanize and get more sophisticated. And all you have to do is go to a San Diego Comic Con, or any one of the comic cons and see the, you know, cosplay that the the dress that folks get into to celebrate their Fandoms, you know, or the level of sophistication in their reviews. You know, the people play these games, and they’re able to sort of talk about, like gameplay and incredibly sophisticated way. And because this is something that they have a huge community as you suggest that they’re sharing this experience. And so at those things, I think we’ve just seen more and more sophistication kind of emerge, especially coming out of the gaming world. And you see this in crossover between games that have been in sort of the game universe, crossing over to theatrical and vice versa. And some of the strongest franchises today in entertainment came out of the gaming world and you know, or you know, think about Marvel coming out of the comic book world. So these are, these are things that have existed in Fandom for decades, in some cases, that can suddenly emerge. You know, becoming incredibly popular. Anime is another example. You know, we have 45 million anime fans, and it’s one of the largest areas of investment.

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