Chloe Epstein – Co-Founder & President of Chloe’s

Chloe Epstein 0:00
The beauty of Michael and I not coming from the industry was we didn’t know how it was supposed to be done. So we weren’t afraid to ask, why not and really push the boundaries.

Kara Goldin 0:09
And I am only willing to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to make sure you will get knocked down but just make sure you don’t get knocked out knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara golden show. So join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders will talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, its Kara from the Kara golden show. And I’m super, super excited for my next guest. I am such a huge fan of her product. And for years, we were just talking that I remember having it out in the Hamptons that their little roadside stop and and had this the most amazing banana, yummy, yummy. Chloe’s Chloe Epstein is here. And her product called Chloe was the product that I’m talking about. It’s called Chloe’s fruit. And, anyway, it was so, so yummy. So I’m so excited to have her here just to talk about her journey, and obviously, Chloe’s as well. But it was really inspired by her intense Sweet Tooth sounds familiar, my sweet tooth as well. And her commitment to living a healthier lifestyle and creating products that her family she’d be proud to be able to give her family and her friends with simple ingredients, and nothing artificial. And she solved the problem, as I mentioned for herself, and then decided to turn it into a business which I think so often is kind of the first step to be being able to do it. But again, when you think about like the ice cream and the frozen yogurt industry, I mean, fearless and relentless is the is the term that I’m sure Chloe has been called over the years and and definitely she’s done something that has made a difference. And I truly, truly admire everything that she’s done. And obviously other people do as well. She’s had great success, building it and is now has now taken her product into the grocery stores nationwide, which she’ll talk about as well. And she’s in well over 10,000 locations, which is so so great. And actually she sent me her newest product, which is with oat milk, which is so so good. So welcome, Chloe, how are you?

Chloe Epstein 3:09
I’m great. Thank you for having me. The feelings are mutual. I’m a huge fan of yours as your product as well. Oh, it’s great to be here.

Kara Goldin 3:16
So, so great. So tell me a little bit about your background. So you’re, you’re a New Yorker, right? You grew up. You grew up in New York?

Chloe Epstein 3:24
Well, New York and New Jersey, I grew up I started in New York moved out to New Jersey when I was young. And I think you know as far as I can, as far back as I can remember, there was always like an element of health and wellness in the background of my home. My parents were very health conscious and mindful of eating and working out and I always do like the Jane Fonda Workout tapes with my mom which probably dates me but that was like our thing or our daily ritual together. And so it’s always been a big a big part of my life. And I think back then, you know, we weren’t as as knowledgeable as consumers but we thought or my parents thought they were they were doing best in terms of the products that they carry had in the house and keeping it simple and clean. But it was different like we definitely grew up on frozen yogurt and that’s where our kind of my my addiction started. You know, my I was looking for something that was healthier what we thought was healthier than ice cream. So we went to frozen yogurt and at the time you know, the artificial ingredients weren’t really a concern. It was more about the fat and the calories and and all of the other stuff. So at the time, I just became like addicted with this. This frozen treat that just seemed like the perfect answer to all my cravings. And you know, I my first job in high school was that tasty delight, frozen yogurt store. But that’s really where the like career overlap. No, because I didn’t really do anything else in the food industry or wellness industry until close after I went to law school and had a totally different career.

Kara Goldin 5:09
So you went to law school and you thought you were going to be an attorney? Did you actually practice?

Chloe Epstein 5:16
Yes, I was, um, I went from law school, I went and worked as a prosecutor and assistant district attorney in Manhattan. And that was an incredible experience. I had like, loved the courtroom, I think I had like a little bit of a theater bug my whole life. And I think the courtroom kind of said that. So I love the intensity of it was super challenging, rewarding, amazing experience. And so I don’t think, you know, starting my own business definitely wasn’t something I set set out to do. I’m certainly not like a natural born entrepreneur, it wasn’t in my blood. I’m not, I’m more of a planner, I like to know the path and what’s what’s gonna come next. And I’m not the biggest risk taker. But this idea for close and this what I thought it was, the void, I thought it was filling. And in my life, and in others, I just couldn’t kind of couldn’t shake the idea. And I just kind of had to go for it.

Kara Goldin 6:16
I love it. And so what was the moment that you just decided that you were gonna start close?

Chloe Epstein 6:22
I think I had I, you know, with having kids, I was really concerned more, more than just, oh, this would be nice kind of feeling but more of an actual concern of what I was going to feed my kids, you know, I’m walking in the aisles of the supermarket and seeing and my kids were very young at the time, but seeing how brands market to children and, and ice cream trucks on the on the street, you know, every few blocks, and just thinking like, what how was I going to really, you know, feed, Feed my kids in a way that felt felt good to me. So it’s Michael, my partner who is my husband’s best friend from growing up was a triathlete. And he always had a freezer full of overripe and bananas. And he never knew what to do with them. And he knew that I was kind of fixated on finding this alternative to a frozen yogurt without anything artificial. And we just kind of started experimenting together in the fruit in the kitchen on any appliance we can find and processors and Cuisinart arts and juicers. And, you know, we started with bananas, because that’s the most likely, you know, fruit to create that creamy consistency. And those are the fruits he has in his freezer. So we The idea was just let’s see what we can do with just the the most minimal ingredients possible. And once we were able to create something that really satiated that that frozen tree craving that I was was looking for, with just fruit water, we kind of got started. And we had to enlist a lot of help along the way to take it to the next step.

Kara Goldin 7:59
I love it. And so what year was this,

Chloe Epstein 8:02
we started in the kitchen in about 2009. Okay, and then we opened our first store in 2010. In the In the meantime, you know, we were kind of working in my kitchen, after the kids went to bed, Michael was working another job I had I was working. And this was kind of like, we’ll see, we’ll see where this goes. And once we were feeling really confident about the concept, we hired a food scientist who helped us learn and understand the big softserve machines and how it calibrate them and what exactly the recipe would need to you know, in order to survive through the machine and through the freezing process. And so we had the fruit, we had the water and we learned we needed to add sugar in so that it wouldn’t freeze up in the machine. And once we did that with four fruits and tasted delicious, we hired a food consultant who helped us figure out how to open a retail store. And by 2010, we opened our first location on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And we just opened with four basic fruit varieties. And the idea was to open a few more stores potentially franchise and and kind of get this out to as many people as possible. But, you know, at the time, we didn’t think about how limiting you know, having a soft serve machine would be. So you know, the goal was to get this product out to as many people as possible. And we started to move into food service pretty early. But you can only really go to venues that had these soft serve machines. So it wasn’t until we kind of stumbled upon the path using the same three basic ingredients that we really saw the potential for the business and that’s when we we pivoted and started to focus on on the Pops.

Kara Goldin 9:55
I love it. And so were you actually I mean, I think that one thing that I bet You faced is that in order to get into venues? You I mean, you almost had to figure out what business you were in, right? Were you in the business of producing a product? Or were you in the business of actually buying machines for people or leasing machines to people? Because they didn’t have the machines? right?

Chloe Epstein 10:17
Exactly. In the beginning, we tried to do both. And we learned pretty quickly that that it wasn’t feasible for both Michael and I didn’t have background in the food industry to start with, but we certainly weren’t going to start getting in the machine background. So business. So we kind of started with the idea that we would help venues that were interested in acquiring these machines, we would kind of help them through that process. And then we slowly backed away, and we just were went after the the venues that had the machines and could just bring in our mix. So the Pops really just were it was very liberating to be able to finally offer something that you just needed a freezer, which already is, you know, frozen is a lot different than shelf tables, which is, you know, has its own challenges as it is but limiting the machine, you know, barrier made it a lot easier.

Kara Goldin 11:13
Yeah, definitely. And did you feel like when you were going out to people who were helping you, because you co pack? I would imagine, and when you’re going out to these popsicle manufacturers, did you feel like you heard, oh, we can’t do it that way, because they need certain ingredients. I mean, I talk a lot about this in and when I’m out speaking, but also in my book about how, you know, I wanted a product that didn’t have sweeteners in it. And I wanted fruit, no sweeteners, and no preservatives. And the sort of stock answer was, we can’t do that. You need preservatives in it? And I’d say Why? Because I came from the tech industry, I did not know anything about it. And so so many times people would say to me, I have no idea. But I don’t have time for these answers. I mean, maybe they weren’t that rude, but essentially, they were like, I don’t know, click right. And I would only imagine that you ran across the exact same kind of resistance to being able to do this.

Chloe Epstein 12:17
Absolutely. I mean, you’re telling you’re telling our story. I mean, I think the beauty of Michael and I not coming from the industry was exactly that. We didn’t we didn’t know how it was supposed to be done. So we weren’t afraid to ask, why not and really push the boundaries and challenge the norms. And I think that’s how we were able to differentiate ourselves. And, you know, we were, we believed we could make it work. And we finally found those partners that could do it with us. And and, you know, we created that first fruit pop without stabilizers. And from there, we’ve really been able to innovate and lean into a more broad line of pops where we’re really the first in almost many of our, and almost all of the new lines that we’ve launched. So we have the we started with the fruit pops, where we then the stabilizers we moved, wanted to get a little more decadent, and we dip in a dairy free dark chocolate. So we were the first dairy free fruit pop to dip into dairy free dark chocolate. And then we moved into oat milk, or the first oatmeal based pop, which now there are other, there are others. But we were the first we’d like to, we’d like to mention that as much as possible. And now we just are so good. Thank you. And now we just launched our first no sugar added pop using all natural sweeteners. So none of the sugar alcohols none of the artificial sweeteners that you find in most other no sugar added.

Kara Goldin 13:46
So yeah, so I so I agree with you and stores I know obviously, you know, super challenging over the last 17 months for everybody and and how businesses changed overall. Where are you still doing stores? I mean, do you still have stores out there?

Chloe Epstein 14:04
We have our one store in Manhattan that we opened a year after our first one. So we have been this one in 2011. And it’s it’s wildly popular buyers desire that one’s in Union Square. Okay, Manhattan,

Kara Goldin 14:21
exactly where that one is. Thank you for not closing.

Chloe Epstein 14:24
Yes, it’s a great area we have we’ve you know developed over the years a really loyal consumer. And we love it. We love having a place where the consumer can come and experience the brand from start to finish how we started with the soft serve. We sell the Pops there as well. We dip our pops in the store. We have smoothies we but the our mission of really making these traits more accessible is we’ve really developed through our pops and that’s like where the focus is. So while we love having the The store as like a, as just, you know, it’s our baby. And it’s how it all started. And it’s a great marketing tool. It’s a great space for r&d, it’s amazing for getting immediate consumer feedback and opinions and requests for new products. So it’s, there’s a lot of benefits from it. But we don’t have any plans to expand that part of the business.

Kara Goldin 15:24
Got it very, very interesting. We have one store, actually, in San Francisco, in our corporate offices just on Union Street, and we say exactly the same thing about, we’ve never tried to open another store, we just have that store there primarily for r&d. And, and, you know, we still have people in San Francisco, where we’re based to come into the store, and they know that there’s unique flavors there. And they’re, we’re always playing around and trying things. Yeah, so it’s a, it’s a lot of fun. And, you know, we’ve got an Instagram photo studio there that we’re always creating, you know, crazy environments where you can come in, you know, get your picture taken and snap. And it’s, it’s a lot of fun. But we’ve said the same thing that for us, it’s really about marketing and branding, and being able to have an experience of the brand. But, you know, nationwide, our our goal is really to work with, with stores. And ultimately, you know, to sell through direct to consumer or through Amazon as well to in order to get to the consumer. So,

Chloe Epstein 16:31
yeah, I think for us also just one thing, yeah, we, it was a challenge in the beginning to get the customer to understand that we were the same pot they were seeing in the supermarket. So we had that challenge of trying to marry the two, because we started with the retail store first, which is unusual. So we we you know, we put the boxes in the store, just so you can see the branding, that it was the same store. But until this to this day, we still get people confused, or a surprise that like, Oh, wait, you’re the same brand, you know. So that’s, that’s another challenge is trying to kind of, you know, make,

Kara Goldin 17:10
make people aware of the fact that we are, we are the same. So you’re competing against, you know, not just other bars that are out there, frozen popsicles, and everything else that’s out there. But you’re, I mean, you’re really competing for presure case, my dad had launched ages ago, when I was a little girl, my dad had launched healthy choice and inside of conagra. And so I grew up hearing about, you know, how he was he actually was not fighting against other brands, he was arguing with other internal brands inside of conagra that wanted the frozen case. And I would imagine, you know, as my dad who was still alive when I launched it, I said, How do I get my product into Safeway? And he’s like, I have no idea because it’s already, you know, decided, right? I mean, conagra has a giant contract with the grocery stores, and then he’s got to, you know, compete internally for that space, and which is very different than Chloe walking into a buyer and saying, I want some of that space. Like, how did you find that? I mean, it’s it’s incredibly, I mean, for me, it was a whole new world that again, I sort of never really had thought about or paid attention to how, you know, competitive it is and how hard it is? Absolutely.

Chloe Epstein 18:35
I mean, I think the biggest thing is, you know, really creating a product that’s differentiating. Because knowing, you know, we’ve learned along the way which retailers are looking to, you know, be at the forefront of the newer products, as opposed to seeing what works and then bringing you in, yeah, so we can we know which buyers are going to appreciate our innovation, and we know the ones that we want to prove it and then bring it to them. But it’s really all about being an innovator and being a leader and then being a good partner to these retailers and supporting them in every way we can, you know within store marketing, outside and social and just doing everything we can to support them and support the sales and we’ve found that our relationships from every everyone from our co Packers to our suppliers to our retailers have proven to be our biggest asset, just to how much we kind of how much work and effort and time we put into those relationships really pays off.

Kara Goldin 19:40
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think you hit a topic that is very near and dear to my heart to that those relationships, you know, at the lowest level and at the highest level with these co packers and them seeing you being able to, you know come in and really try And understand exactly what they’re doing and, and, and contribute and add value to that conversation not coming from this industry, right was probably a competitive advantage that you had an idea. You were, you know, not going to take no for an answer and instead try and figure out how can you do it? And how can you make it happen?

Chloe Epstein 20:25
Yeah, we, you know, we, we were aware that we did not know a lot. So we were, you know, very focused on surrounding ourselves with experts in the field and people that we respected, and we’re educated and experienced, that, you know, we were able to also really give our input and stick to what we believed in and, you know, push,

Kara Goldin 20:50
push, push. I love it. That’s so great. Now, were you actually an attorney, when you started this idea, as I mean, you’ll always be an attorney. But were you practicing, I guess, is what I’m trying to say? No, I

Chloe Epstein 21:01
hadn’t, I had taken I had already left the dean’s office, kind of with the idea of doing this. It was but timing wise, I was transitioning out of the dean’s office because of my kids and thinking I would probably go back. But then this kind of took on a life of its own and became my, my other child. That’s awesome. What

Kara Goldin 21:21
was what was the most surprising thing that you learned? When when, you know, in your journey? I mean, obviously, you’re thinking up this idea, you’re kind of doing product development with Michael, and you’re trying to figure out, you know, how, like, maybe go find real estate to go and launch this store over? Like, what would you say, since 2009 2010, was the most kind of surprising thing that you’ve learned?

Chloe Epstein 21:52
I That’s a hard one. I think one of I think one of the things is like that, it’s just, you always hear our having our own business, it doesn’t stop. But it truly not just the work, just the the concepting. And, and, you know, the conceiving of new things and ideas, it just it You never, you can never really sit back and take in what you’ve what you’ve created, because I have to be ready to move on to the next thing. And I’m very surprised by that. Because even when I was at the DHS office, and my workload was was tremendous. I mean, I had about, you know, over 50 cases that were constantly moving, and they could be at any stage, whether it was trial, or pre trial, grand jury, there was always like that moment where you could kind of sit back and be like, Alright, that trial is over. I did great. And now I can preface it with with toys and with the business, there’s just really none of that. Well, we, we got this off the ground, we got it on shelf, we’re seeing it, you know, on social, we’re seeing it in people’s hands. This is so exciting. But it’s like, wait, what we have to start finding the next thing. So I think that’s been really surprising how quick it all has to power has to happen. And, you know, we were, we were advised like early on when we were part of the chobani food incubator, which was an incredible experience for us. Early on, they, you know, we had been describing what our next innovation was going to be. And we were saying how, yeah, we were thinking of blueberry, and we’re thinking of doing a coffee pop? And they said, yeah, that’s not innovation that’s like, that’s an line extension. And that was the first time we’re like, oh, we really got to, you know, we got to move beyond just, you know, what we’re comfortable with. And, you know, from that experience, we learned so much, but we also ended up partnering la colome on our coffee pop, which was a, you know, an incredible part and our first partnership, but we really walked away thinking we got to get on this, we got to start, you know, looking past what we know and what we’ve we’ve established ourselves as and now and now start really doing innovation.

Kara Goldin 24:07
I remember hearing that you were part of the incubator program and and I thought, hmm, like, they’re not a brand new company. I mean, they’ve they’ve actually already launched and now they’re, they’re going into that and which I think also takes a lot of courage and and you know, it’s humbling, right, because you’ve had a few years of experience, and I’m sure they were, you know, sharing with you that your baby wasn’t totally pretty, right. You’re, you’re being told, you know, this isn’t good. And again, it’s it’s a group of people’s opinion, but I’m sure at times you were, you know, kind of feeling like oh my gosh, like, why did I submit to this, right? I mean, and why did you think that you wanted to go into an incubator program. Whether it’s Giovanni or whether it’s, I know people who have done it in tech have gone in, you know, two different and cubero product programs after they’ve started, right. And they’ve thought, you know, that this is what I really, really need to do, because I’m, I’m, I’m kind of, like, I need that extra mentorship and and also somebody to have another look at my program, whatever it is, but I’m so curious to hear how you decided to do it.

Chloe Epstein 25:26
It’s so funny, because that was the exact we got the feedback, even when we were applying for it, everyone we talked to was like, you’re too big, you’re too establish, why would you do this. And we felt that we had so much to learn, we were probably on the bigger side of the companies that they were typically working with. But, you know, we were new, we were so new to the business and everything felt like it was such a steep learning curve, that we felt like, this is a local New York business, we had so much respect for chobani hanzi, their mission, you know, we were so aligned. And we just felt like, you know, what, how, why would we pass up an opportunity to learn from all these people who are in this industry in such a like minded way, and we felt like it would be this like really intense experience that we would, we would really be able to benefit from so many aspects of our business, and it truly was not. And I think we probably got more out of it being at our phase, because we had already made so many mistakes that, you know, they they were covering, and we could we could relate to, and we could kind of take it to the next level. And from, you know, the basic kind of intro meetings or lectures, or we knew exactly what we wanted to get out of it. We knew what was next we knew what we were, you know, what we were lacking, or where we really needed help. And the beauty of chobani is that they are totally open. Everyone is so accessible there, we were able to you know, make meetings with whatever department we needed at whatever time, and they really helped us navigate through so many challenges we were having. And so I think I think our our stage and how established we were, we were really able to really take advantage of everything that they were offering in the incubator, and then just everything they have to offer in general. So you know, we still are in close contact with them. And they continue to be a huge support system for us.

Kara Goldin 27:25
Yeah, that’s what you were saying that is so great to hear. And hom D is obviously awesome. And yeah, really excited to hear that they didn’t stop the program after the first group. I mean, they’ve continued to write I mean, they’re still doing,

Chloe Epstein 27:38
they’re super committed, and it kind of evolves every year, they’ve done something different with it. And it’s pretty, pretty impressive.

Kara Goldin 27:45
That’s, that’s so incredible. So you and I were talking to about something I mentioned earlier about, see seeing your product for the first time out in the Hamptons, and, and kind of what you learned. I mean, can you share that story just about, you know, you set up your first little store in Bridgehampton on the side of the road. You’re you partnered with this great Coffee Company, but what did you learn about that experience?

Chloe Epstein 28:10
Yeah, so we were, we were thrilled to be able to have this outpost and his opportunity to still, you know, market to and be relevant to a big part of our consumer base who was going out from the city from our New York store, out to the Hamptons over the summer. And it seemed like a dream, you know, we were at Hampton Coffee Company, which was terrific coffee shop, very, you know, high traffic and we just thought it was perfect. And like, like some other things we did along the way, you know, it was a distraction for us. And because it all these things while they are look shiny and sexy, and it was super appealing. They’re, you know, very time consuming. And we put a lot of effort and energy into it. And ultimately, you know, the, you have to think about the whole package and the coffee, the pens and coffee while it’s a super successful, highly frequented loyal can have huge loyal consumers. We were serving a frozen treats that most people think of eating, you know, later in the day or after dinner late night, and the hours of hams and coffee were just not in line with you know, what you would expect for a frozen treat shop. So, you know, they’re, they’re high traffic area time is like 530 in the morning to like 730 in the morning. And so for us that wasn’t perfect for, you know, getting people to try a Sunday. So, you know, it was great having our name up there. And to this day, I hear great stories like yours about how they remember it and they loved it. But ultimately, we had to kind of assess if it was a good move and good, good kind of time commitment for us. And it was not

Kara Goldin 29:58
Yeah, no, but I think The early trial. I mean, I think for me, that story just really resonates with me, because what I always share with entrepreneurs or would be, hopefully, soon to be entrepreneurs is that the most important thing is that you try things right, and you get it out there. And there’s so many lessons that you learned from that experience. And you definitely gained some customers like me who saw it, then. Right, but then you figured out kind of, you know, what did I learn from this experience? And is it, you know, worth the challenges in order to, you know, keep it going? And what did I learn about my own customer, because I think until you actually go and really understand your customer, focus groups probably couldn’t have told you all of that. And that’s, that’s the other thing that I’ve learned along the way, too, is that you can have tons of people in the industry who share all their insights and their own journey of how they did things, but more than anything, if you can figure out a way to, to reasonably cheaply get it out there in the market, and figure out exactly what your customer does, that is the most important thing for you, right? Because everybody’s going to be a little bit different, and how people react to your product versus hint, for example, you know, maybe they would pick up a water before they go to their exercise classes, like maybe that would be the perfect place for him to be it’s really, really hard to say until we ultimately tried it. But I think that that is the most important thing is just going and trying and figuring things out. Absolutely.

Chloe Epstein 31:44
Yeah, we try we, whenever we whenever something kind of comes across our plate, that could be perceived as a little off track for us, but could be interesting, we kind of go back to that experience, as well as another one that we had that was similar with a truck and we were just like, No, we have to stay focused. And, you know, we know, we know what we’re doing and why we’re doing it. And we don’t want to, we don’t want to go down that path again.

Kara Goldin 32:10
Absolutely, absolutely love it. So one of the quotes that I I grabbed from some different articles that I that I read about you was I love this quote on you, I know, right? You have a positive mantra, you can accomplish anything, which I think is is so awesome. And it really is one that I think you have to have in an entrepreneurial mindset. Because so often you’re going to go forward a couple of steps and some days backwards, a few more steps and, and you’ve got to just keep the positive and remember the positive things that you have done, and you have built an incredible brand, Chloe with amazing, amazing products and, and I love you know, your ability to be humbled and and try and all of those things that I’m hearing, in this interview for sure. And there’s so many lessons here as well for people to just learn from your own experience. And I’m a big believer too, that the more we hear about stories of why products get started that there is a definite tie in when I go through the grocery store. And those are the products that I paul i Paul, I want to know who developed these products and I mean, it’s pretty crazy, my brain just like goes down these aisles like looking for products that are developed by people first and and I just I know so many founders over the years. And that’s really my goal for this podcast, too, is to get those stories out there. So that more and more people will learn about their stories and learn about the quality and the and the perseverance that goes on to getting this product to market. So thank you so much, Chloe, and everybody you have to go and go to the frozen cases and your stores and and are you selling you’re selling through your website right now too or how are you but it’s um, it’s definitely better to get it at the supermarket. We’re in over 10,000 and if you are having trouble finding you can always go to our website, we have a store locator at Chloe’s fruit calm, and on social, I am on social all day and responding on stops. If you ever have a problem finding, finding products, I can always help you out there. We’re at Chloe’s fruit. I’m on Instagram as well. So you shouldn’t have trouble finding. That’s awesome. And I love to that you’re a mama as well and you went ahead and started your company anyway that didn’t use that as an excuse for not going and getting Started so I really appreciate that as well. So

Chloe Epstein 35:03
my daughter now is, is yelling at me every day that I have my Chloe’s tic Tock game. So, I’m challenging her to kind of take over my tic Tock. So, we’ll see how that goes.

Kara Goldin 35:15
We should definitely talk. So that was my pandemic. That was my goal. So and I yeah, and I started it. Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s embarrassing to my to my kids at moments. I do not dance on my Thank God. But I’ve now been on the front page multiple times I have over 40,000 40,000 people following me on tik tok and, yeah, Kara golden it’s, yeah, it’s sterile. And yeah, and there’s just all kinds of nuggets of wisdom. And actually the, I’ll give my, I was talking to the people from tik tok about this, the real reason why I love tik tok for for my audience, again, everybody’s audiences are different is the people that have grown up with hint, where I was really focused on letting their parents know, maybe and you know, the buyers, right, that are going into Whole Foods. These are the people that were getting it at school, that were their parents were buying it that they were growing up, but I didn’t really, I mean, I knew that they existed, they were considered the kids or the family. Yeah, right. Yeah. But those people are now wanting to be entrepreneurs. So my focus on my Tiktok is all about, you have to have an idea. You have to just go out and do it. And don’t worry about failure. And so it’s really about entrepreneurial inspiration, versus actually specifically talking about a product and it’s amazing how many people want to be entrepreneurs, this younger generation that is thinking, I don’t even know how to get started and there is not the audience or sorry, there is not the venue for them. And they’re coming in and so that is why my you know, my group has grown so significantly on tik tok. So, I would, yeah, so I would love for you to, to come on there as well and sort of share words of wisdom. He’s super fun. And thank you, everyone, everyone for coming and listening. We’re here every Monday and Wednesday talking about more than tik tok and, and lots of stuff. And as I mentioned before, if you haven’t had a chance to pick up a copy of my book or get it on Audible, please do and follow me on social at Kara golden and definitely follow Chloe. And as I mentioned, those out bars are so so yummy, but I’m still super partial to the banana. So it’s definitely hard to do chocolate. Yes, that is so good as well. So thanks, everyone. Thank you. before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book calm and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight? send me a tweet at Kara golden and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara golden golden thanks for listening