Kate Eberle Walker – CEO of PresenceLearning and Author of The Good Boss

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to just sort of make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara golden show. So join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, its Kara golden from the Kara golden show. And I’m so excited to have my next guest here. We have Kate Everly Walker, who is the Chief Executive Officer of presence learning. We’ll talk a little bit more about her company and, and how just everything that she’s doing around online special education teletherapy for K through 12 schools, I’m so interested in this topic. But Kate also recently wrote a book that is so incredible. It’s called the good boss nine ways every manager can support women at work. And it is just an incredible book that came out in March of this year. Another pandemic book that it was, like yes, years, people were coming out of the pandemic, but definitely have my own appreciation for that whole period of time. That was a first for so many of us a first book or first time in launching during a pandemic. So we did it we made it through for sure so, and Kate has also been named a champion of equity by the Americans Consortium for equity and education and named top 25 women and P back software companies. 2020 an amazing, amazing individual. And Kate welcomes, excited to have you here. Thanks, Kara. Thank you for having me. Very excited. So tell me a little bit more about sort of, who was early Kate, way back when? I mean, did you know that you were going to be running this incredible company, but also just overall what you wanted to do?

Kate Eberle Walker 2:21
So Well, I think the key the key thing to know about early Kate is that I am a middle child. So and and so what you know, I think middle children are very obsessed with birth order and you know, we see things in reference to what someone else is getting. So, you know, I was always looking at, you know, what my little sister was getting what my older brother was getting and looking for, you know, sort of my angle in to, you know, to have impact on the family. And so I think that drove me I wouldn’t say that I knew that I would end up one day running something but I was always trying to figure out like, Well what’s what’s my way to actually matter here and actually have an impact and that that that came out and probably misguided ways. When I was younger there’s this there’s this story that my family loves to tell about when we were young so we go visit my grandmother every summer. me my brother, my sister and one other cousin another girl and my grandma would get these little gifts for us and it would rotate who got like first pick on the gifts and so the summer that it was my pick the four gifts they were coloring books and the answer there was one for a boy because of my brother and three girl and so it was like carebears Barbie transformers and you know Strawberry Shortcake and so I got my first pic and I grabbed the Transformers coloring book and everyone kind of freaked out and was like give that to your brother that’s not for you Katie I was Katie you back then. And and I was like I’m sorry because I thought I had the first choice. And you know, I just very stubborn way felt like well if I’m gonna make my first pick count for anything it has to be the one that has you know, this this value so that was that was kind of how I made my way through younger life was trying to figure out like what had value to other people. Fortunately, I you know, I grew up a little bit along the way and realized that there were there were ways to create value that didn’t come at the expense of others. I adapted as I got older

Kara Goldin 4:29
I understand the middle middle kid I’m not a middle kid. I’m the youngest of five but I’m married to a middle kid who is very aware of and and tells I have four children with him and he’s constantly talking about the birth order and you are right,

Kate Eberle Walker 4:50
right well you know more middle children like to like to remind you that there are that more middle children become CEOs.

Kara Goldin 4:57
Oh, interesting. Very Yeah. Very, very interesting. Well, he is as he, he identifies as a struggling a lawyer that didn’t really want to be a lawyer. So then he turned Chief Operating Officer. So he’s definitely had some different gigs. But it all goes back to this middle kid that, you know, trying to figure out exactly what he’s supposed to be doing, and then sticking up for himself along the way. Anyway, so funny. And so one of the roles I guess that that I Well, a few different roles even before starting your where you are today is you were the CEO of the Princeton Review. Yes. I mean, yeah. So tell me a little bit about that journey.

Kate Eberle Walker 5:44
Yeah, so I worked a lot of my earlier career in college admissions and test prep, actually, my my first big job out of business school was with Caplin, so I’m one of the few people to have, you know, ultimately had career success at these two great rivals Kaplan and Princeton Review. But I worked at Kaplan for nearly a decade on m&a. So buying education companies have bought over 70 different education companies over my years at Kaplan and you’re really studied that industry and you know, over those years formed stronger and stronger opinions I’d say about what makes for a good business and education and what kind of a business you know do I believe in and want to run so so it got to got to a point for me where I was no longer satisfied being the deal person, you know, putting things together and envisioning plans for others to go execute. I wanted to go go do it and go try it and I have this incredible opportunity to go work for IAC, Barry Diller’s company, they had bought tutor.com. And we’re thinking about consumer education, online play and what they wanted to build how they wanted to build it, and then they and they wanted somebody that had experience in the industry. So they brought me on to their team. And we envisioned this, this consumer offering built off of the online on demand concept of tutor Comm. But expanding into other areas of college admissions and college advice, and we thought, what, what better brands to do that within the Princeton Review, which is so storied and so trusted. So we bought it, and that was my last foray into m&a was was buying Princeton Review. And then I got to go over to the management team and be part of, of building it out and executing and star plan. I was CFO for the first year, running the integration, and then I became CEO. That’s wild.

Kara Goldin 7:49
And what did you learn? What was kind of the core thing across all of those companies in education? What were you seeing? I mean, I guess, essentially, how many years was this? Like? This was like, 15 years? Yeah, yeah. years. And so did you see this like, trend amongst all of these? I guess there’s a pool of students, right, that are at different levels? And what was the core thing that you were saying?

Kate Eberle Walker 8:15
Well, you know, for education, it’s tough to run a great education company, because you are held responsible for this, this outcome. I mean, you’re, you know, you’re not, you’re not just, you know, giving them a book, or, you know, offering them this course, they’re counting on you to help them get somewhere. So I think the big thing about about education, especially college admissions is, you’ve got to figure out what can you actually do that will help this student this kid figure out where they want to go, and then get them there, and you’re going to, you know, count on them to do a lot of work in the process as well. Right? That’s you’re you’re you’re making a promise that, that as a company, you can’t fully keep on your own, you need the buyer, and you need the belief, you need the work from the students. So so it all comes together in a way that you I think the companies that do well in that space are the ones that are that are clear about expectations, they don’t over promise there’s there’s a lot that a lot of gaming in the space that can happen about promising these big test score improvements or, you know, 100% admission to Harvard kinds of things. And, you know, I learned over all those years a couple of things. One is that Harvard Yeah, Harvard or any given school, it shouldn’t be the end goal for every kid it’s it’s really about finding the right fit. And then that you know, you can’t, you can’t promise numbers, you’ve got to promise success and that you’ll help help each child figure out what that is for them. So it’s an interesting space to be and you’ve got to really take responsibility for for this this phase of life and where somebody gets to education. You know, education opens up everything for for.

Kara Goldin 10:03
Yeah, absolutely. And then before we get into your book, I want to talk about your company present learning. And I mean, obviously, you’re you’re really focused in on the special education side of the world. I mean, did you feel like you learned and became really passionate about that through what you were saying and these previous roles,

Kate Eberle Walker 10:25
I was so lucky to find presence learning. So I came into presence learning when the company was about 10 years old. And the the investors and the founder, were looking looking to bring in an outside CEO to help the company scale further. And I, you know, I wasn’t that aware of the company. When I first started talking to them, I had, I had been having, you know, coffee with an investor friend, as you do, we sold Princeton Review, and I was, you know, off to find my next CEO gig. And I was talking to an investor who had a lot of holdings in the education space. And he said, Well describe your ideal company to me, like what what would you do if you could invent the company you’re going to run next? What would it be and I said, you know, I’ve really loved our business model at tutor COMM The idea of using technology to make a really important human service accessible to more kids and affordable for more kids. And you know, that that was what we’d done it tutor comm we weren’t taking the human element out of the education, we were connecting a student to a live tutor, a live teacher, and I loved that. And I loved how we were making that more accessible for kids, and the moments when they needed it. So I started talking about that and saying, you know, I’d love to find another company that does that to maybe earlier stage, you know, Princeton Review is a more mature company, I’d love to, you know, come in somewhere that really needs me and a team to grow it and bring it to the next level where we can really impact what this company will become. And if it could be a part of education that’s even more meaningful than helping academically successful kids gain admission to college, that that would be the icing on the cake. And the investor said, Oh, my God, we have this company in our portfolio, and they’re just launching a search to bring in an outside CEO, you have to meet them. And that was presence learning. So I got to know it through that and came into the company that way. And now I’m two and a half years into it. And I had no idea how much I needed to learn about the special education part of the market. I mean, for my for myself, it’s actually personally changed my life. I realized once I started spending time with our clinicians, I started recognizing that they could help me with a speech challenge my own daughter had been having that I’d been asking pediatricians and teachers about for years, and you know, it was sort of minimized as something not to worry about. And within months of having gone to the team at presence learning, I had her evaluated, had therapy recommended and came to appreciate what it is that speech pathologists do and can do for for our kids. So it’s become a very personally meaningful thing that I you know, I feel so lucky to have gotten introduced to them.

Kara Goldin 13:15
Well, they were lucky to find you too. But obviously, I mean, I always feel like every point of our journey is kind of for a reason. Right? And, and that clearly is what you’re describing. So how I mean, talk to us a little bit about presence learning for those of for the people who aren’t familiar. Well, how does the system work?

Kate Eberle Walker 13:38
Yep. So so we are a teletherapy platform and software provider for special education services. So so we have a team of about 1600 therapists, we have speech pathologists, occupational therapists, and school psychologists and social workers. And, and so our team helps schools cover the therapy work and the evaluation work that they need to get done, but can’t do because they don’t have enough people on staff. So so the way special education works in in our public education system is it’s, it’s federally mandated. So if a child is determined to have a disability that requires therapy, the school has to provide it to that student to that family free of charge. And they, they want to they try to but it’s incredibly difficult to recruit these clinicians to come work every day in the school district. It’s a hard job. It’s really, I mean, it’s emotionally taxing. It’s physically taxing it’s long hours, heavy case loads, a lot of driving around and so a lot of the therapists will do it for you know, maybe a few years earlier in their career, but then they might go to private practice or go work in a clinic. So to present learning came along and said, you know, we think we could keep more of these clinicians working with public education students, if we offered them a way to work remotely with more flexibility to do their work from home, it’s you know, not not coincidentally, this is a very, very female working population. So 97% of speech pathologists are women. And many of them are at the point where they start their own families decide that they, you know, they can’t sustain the the hours and the structure of full time on site work at a school, but they love working with these kids, and they want to continue. So so over 80% of our clinicians who work with us online, are working mothers of school aged children, and they find their way to us. And they get to keep on using using their their training and their license and working with these kids in public education, but they can do it on their terms and set their hours. So so you know, to us where we’re as much about, you know, serving these women and providing them with a career path as we are about supporting these kids and getting them the services. So we do we do a double good thing.

Kara Goldin 16:05
That’s amazing. And so how did that change? I mean, over during COVID, I mean,

Kate Eberle Walker 16:11
oh, everything changed, everything changed? Yeah, I think, well, the biggest change was was just awareness of teletherapy. And acceptance of it. So, you know, we went from being something that we worked with a lot of very rural districts who couldn’t hire these clinicians, or with a lot of very concentrated urban districts, same thing had a hard time hiring, retaining, you know, we were helping them solve their problems and their shortages. All of a sudden, you know, we went to having 100% of districts were needing to figure out how to do some of their work online, they were closed for some period of time. And so teletherapy suddenly became a very, you know, relevant mass solution. And so for us as a company, it changed actually, our offerings. So we started, you know, we recognized at some point in that spring, or really the winter of 2020, that the, you know, the thing that we could do to help wasn’t necessarily going to be to sell more of our services, you know, to go to keep going around to school district saying, send us your case, your caseload overloads, send us your evaluations, and our team will do them, they had a different problem to solve. All of a sudden, they had all of these, all of their staff were at home, their kids were at home, they had the established therapy, relationships, they just needed to connect with their kids. And so we started doing professional development, we started training, the school based staff on you know, how do you adapt your on site practice to an online world? How do you connect with kids? How do you build rapport through the screen through technology? So we started doing training, we call it teletherapy. One on One, you know, we said, okay, we’ve spent a decade figuring out how to do this, well, let’s teach people who are working in these schools, who now we’re being forced to do it, how to do it well, and then we started licensing our, our therapy platform, our software, so that they would have a tool that had you know, all of the therapy activities and content and multi screen views and games and assessments so that they’d have everything that they needed to to be able to deliver the therapy. So we added that whole new business line to our company in the past year, and we’ve

Kara Goldin 18:26
grown like crazy. That’s awesome. I bet there were people even before the pandemic, who were saying, I don’t know if I want to do it this way we want to live birth, and then once you actually have to do it, it just totally changes. And then obviously, the therapists right, who are, you know, you probably had a lot of people who felt a lot more comfortable.

Kate Eberle Walker 18:48
Yeah, I mean, a lot of them. Yeah, they didn’t know if it could be done that well, or how it would feel to work that way. And they got to experience it, the biggest shift was with parents, and if this was true, and online, tutoring, online test, preparation, all of that as well, the people and parents see how effective something can be online. And and they actually parents get to see it, and they get to actually, you know, witness their child interacting with this professional. It’s, it tends to be the parents that drive the wave of adoption. And I think that definitely happened for special education therapy over this past year, you have these parents watching these interactions and seeing how their children engaged. And then and now coming into the next year we see them, you know, asking for it and requesting it. So I think it’ll really change the way that that this part of education is thought about in terms of online.

Kara Goldin 19:41
Yeah, that’s, that’s amazing. And I, I have a friend who is a sixth grade teacher in public school in San Francisco and hearing her stories of she was sharing with me a story about how the kids don’t actually have to turn on their video when they’re in the class room online. And and, you know, they didn’t go back to school, I guess this whole year. And so they were doing it all virtually. And then kids would actually get bullied if they turned their video on. And I know we’re breaking. And she said that kids who actually, you know, had challenges, special education challenges. I mean, it was, it was just, you know, absolutely heartbreaking. So I think that there’s definitely, you know, this need where people can interact, right and in, in these programs and figure out, you know, how do you push through those in case? You know, God forbid, we have to do this again, right. And it? Definitely, thank goodness that you guys are doing what you’re doing. So, okay, so the book totally different. I mean, maybe Yeah, maybe there’s some crossovers in there as well, I’m sure just on your journey, but the new book came out, which I mentioned is so good. It’s called the good boss, and subtitle nine ways every manager can support women at work, but talk to me about the good boss, what made you think about writing this book?

Kate Eberle Walker 21:10
So I wrote this book for for men, for male managers. So I found once, especially once I became a CEO, talking to my peers, and you know, let’s, let’s be honest, but most of our peer CEOs are men, they would they’d come to me asking for advice, when they are about the women who worked for them about, you know, what should I do? I want to do the right thing. Should I say this? Should I not say this, you know, lots of lots of asks for advice from kind of my male CEO friends. And I, when I heard myself giving advice back, it just, it felt like what I was telling them was just, it was very practical. And it was just rooted in trying to give them more perspective in the real experience that women have in the workplace there. So it struck me there’s so much to gain by giving managers a real clear understanding of you know, this is how women experience the workplace. And this is how it shows up in the data. And so here’s what you can do, here’s what you could say, here’s what you shouldn’t say, here’s what you can change just in your day to day interactions with women who work for you, even if you’re a manager of one person, you know, it doesn’t have to be only CEOs doesn’t have to be only HR leaders who are setting policies and changing things from the top anyone who has responsibility as a manager for for a woman on their team can you know benefit from just listening and gaining that perspective of what’s the workplace like for her. So I started, I started trying to write it out, I said, you know, this, this is a book that that I know how to write, you know, I’ve lived it myself, I’ve, I’ve worked my way up and, and really learned along the way, how different it can be, when you have a manager who’s setting the right tone for you, you know, and I and I reflected upon those managers for me and when what they did, and you know, how, you know, I really, truly wouldn’t be where I am, if I hadn’t, you know, come upon some really incredible bosses along the way. And so I wanted to try to take what they did for me and what other women told me about with their great bosses and turn it into, you know, as much of a formula as we could for what everybody could do to create a more more equalized workplace. So

Kara Goldin 23:35
what were just name a couple of examples. I mean, what what did you see as kind of the core thing that you, you know, felt was like, number one, I mean, how do you be the most supportive boss in this situation? And honestly, like, I think your book, definitely, it sounds like you wrote it, really for so many men that had asked you but I think it’s it’s great for both men and women. I mean it because I think women sometimes feel like they’re also watching their career and and they’re, they’re tackling things as well. How do you be? How do you continue to be supportive to other women in the environment, as well also be fair to men, too. I think like, that’s another whole topic that if you’re a female leader is actually making sure that we’re not just supporting the women in the group, but also that the guys as well. So, exactly, I

Kate Eberle Walker 24:26
think about that a lot as a leader for sure. Yes. So Well, okay, so one, one core principle that I think is important for everybody, bosses and employees, men and women, is to you have to be be an authentic person in the workplace to show who you are, and to be interested in who other people are. And you know, I felt like that I mean, that might sound simple, it might sound obvious, but you know, a lot of times in workplace context people get hung up on being careful being protected. Not crossing lines. And I think that it can be to a detriment if you aren’t, you know, really open and making employees feel like they can be who they are and and talk about what they care about outside of work and why, you know why? Why does anybody want to come to work every day? If they don’t feel like, you know, they’re really being themselves if they don’t feel like they like the people that they work with. That’s when when someone asks me for advice about you know, how do I know, I’m interviewing for a job? Or I have a job offer? How do I know if this will be a good boss? For me? I always start with Well, did you like them? Did you enjoy yourself in the interview, right, and you know, because if you can’t have a fun conversation, where you’re each engaging and listening to each other, your chances are that’s, that’s not going to be a productive working relationship. You know, your boss should care about what you have to say, and should be listening to you so. And then as a boss, I think that, you know, you do have to extend yourself as much as you’re willing. You know, one thing I talk about a lot is I believe in sharing on social media and inviting every, you know, all of my employees to follow me, I don’t, I don’t force it on them. I don’t, you know, I don’t invite them to be my Facebook friend, I let them know that, you know, they’re welcome to follow me and that I share about my life, and many of them do, and they invite me to follow them. And you know, what you can learn about somebody on Instagram, you know, it shows you what they care about. And it shows them what you do, it gives you more connecting points. And that’s an area I really advocate for where I think that leaders can do more and put themselves out there more generationally, I think that some of you, some of us were maybe came came of age at a different time where we were actually taught not to, you know, that you should draw lines, and you shouldn’t be on social media, you shouldn’t connect with your employees, but surveys of the next generation of workers shows they definitely don’t feel that way. Actually 80% of, of employees, in one survey I looked at said that they would like to be connected with their bosses on social media.

Kara Goldin 27:08
That’s so interesting. And I’ll be curious to see what Gen Z as Yeah, they coming up in the, you know, next generation I four of those, and so I think that they would want to be more connected, you know, with their boss and wanting to know what’s going on as well. So that’s super, super interested. So you solicited feedback from several CEOs and doing research for the book, what was kind of the most surprising feedback you received from a CEO? Actually, women and men? Was there any difference? And sort of

Kate Eberle Walker 27:44
definitely, definitely, there were there were gender differences, I think, probably the most surprising thing was was not even something that came out in an interview, but in the after editing, so you know, you, you interview everybody for your book, and then and then my publisher had me, you know, reach out to each one of the CEOs i’d spoken to, to get them to sign a release and authorize the use of their section of the book. And so when I did that I shared with each of them, you know, thanks for the conversation. here’s, here’s what I wrote here. Here’s what I’d like to put in the book, can you please sign this form and send it back to me and, you know, two to 100% of the male CEOs like with it, if it goes within seconds, maybe is within minutes just responded? Like they clearly couldn’t read the passage, or even read the release? It was just like sight like, yep, awesome. Thanks for including me, here you go. And all the women to 100% read through what I’d written asked me to change words, asked me at you know, could you say this, instead of that, they edited a few rounds, what was going to be put in the book for quotes from them. And so I, you know, as I was going through this, I noticed that trend and then reflected on, you know, some of the other ideas and concepts I put in the book about how about what a burden, we as women, I absolutely felt this and still to some extent, feel it to this need to edit ourselves and to be careful and to really make sure that we say things in in the right way and the way that will be accepted in the workplace. And and I sort of saw that playing out even with all of these, you know, very strong, powerful women leaders, they were they were they they felt they need to be thoughtful, careful, like to the vocabulary word right about how they were quoted. And, you know, I think that there’s some strength in that I think it’s important to be thoughtful about about the words you choose and how you speak but at the same time, there’s a whole lot of time and effort that gets put into that, that, you know, men are working on other things while while we’re editing ourselves in so that came through in the process in a way that I wasn’t necessarily expecting.

Kara Goldin 29:54
That’s so interesting. So that would definitely be me. I would be the person that I am And, and looking and not actually giving a response until I had looked through everything. But I think that that that’s so interesting that so many people that it was so clear and the genders Yeah, we’re getting that. Yeah, as well. So. So you also discuss new parents returning to the workforce? What do you think that looks like in this world of us all trying to figure out, going back to work? And what what do you? I mean, how can management really make it easier and engage these parents more?

Kate Eberle Walker 30:34
I think they’re, I think there’s some good stuff that will come out of this, I hope I’m optimistic about this. I think for one, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of women who had their babies during the pandemic, and were working remotely and therefore returned from their maternity leave still working remotely. And that I think, what an end felt really great about it, I mean, allowed them to ease back into it, it takes out some of the some of those physical challenges. I mean, I mean, I, I could write a book about all of the, like, stresses I had, in my first year back after having my baby about like, you know, pumping and traveling while pumping, and all of those things, you know, you know, when when you don’t have to leave your your home for a bit longer of a stretch, I think it actually makes a really big difference. And, and you know, how you can engage more fully when you come when you come back to work. So I think that, that women are positive on that, I think the other hopefully, positive thing is that we’ve all across genders witnessed more parenting happening, you know, in the background of our zooms over the past year. So I hope there’s some more understanding or recognition that, you know, there are other things going on in people’s lives, but it doesn’t mean that they that they’re not going to get their work done, and that they’re not going to be engaged and focused. And you can be both a parent and a worker, those, you know, those two things can be true and coexist. So I hope there’s more awareness. And in recognition of all of that, I think the risk is that, you know, there’s a write about in the book, this, this thing that happens to women, when they return from maternity leave, where, you know, there’s different kinds of written out of the story, and they’ve got to fight their way back in and insert themselves to get the good project back to, you know, get included in meetings, again, you know, people sort of prepare for them to be out, and then they adapt, and are, you know, doing doing the work and don’t necessarily prepare for them to return. And so I wonder about that, will it be even harder for women to re engage if their managers aren’t watching out for that, and actually thoughtfully planning for their return and reintegration and, you know, giving them their work back their assignments back, when you know, you’re not all in the same location where you can just, you know, walk into or walk into a conference room, or where it’s very obvious if you’re not being invited to a meeting. So I think that’s it. For a manager of a woman returning, I think it’s more important than ever to, to follow a follow my direction from the book and really plan for her first day back her first week back from leave, as a new onboarding as a new return to work and make sure that you’re engaging her and assume that she she wants you to bring on the work. She’s not, you know, she doesn’t want you to ease her into it and leave her kind of drifting.

Kara Goldin 33:27
Yeah, no, I think that’s great advice as well. I frankly, worry a lot about the culture of, you know, when you’ve got some people who are working remotely versus people going back into the office, and and then, you know, you layer in the coming back from maternity leave, I think people are, there’s this complexity of sort of understanding if people are in the office, if they’re not in the office, right. And then the opt in, I guess, is that, you know, who ends up being, you know, the, the player, right? And in that in that, and I really do worry about that unless we sort of figure out exactly what that structure is, having said that. Our company like lots of other companies did really well with this whole virtual world. Right. And so, but I think when you have a hybrid world, which I think most companies are moving in new, I think it just, you know, human behavior is that it just gets more complicated, right? And I can’t really envision how it’s going to work exactly. And I think some people are, somebody was just telling me that Airbnb, I think, decided to not go back in the office until 2022. And the fall of 2022, like 100% you have to have special permission to actually even have a meeting in the office and I thought Gosh, that’s really I wonder why a company that big is doing that? And it, it sort of led into this conversation that there’s, you know, how do you actually manage? How do you, you know, become a great boss versus and a mediocre boss, when you’ve got some people that are, you know, within your visibility? I don’t know, I’m not saying it can’t be done. I think that it’s complicated for managers, and there definitely needs to be some teaching along the way, for sure.

Kate Eberle Walker 35:31
Yeah, definitely. It definitely is gonna take more deliberate action, right, you’ve got they’re gonna managers are gonna have to be thoughtful about it. Another thing that, that I, that I’m thinking of, that I probably hadn’t thought about enough was we, we struggled at my company over this past year with the blurring of the work hours, you know, things kind of, you know, without having commutes to kind of put, you know, guardrails on the day, you know, things stretching a little longer starting a little earlier, and or just, you know, moving throughout the day. And that’s, that is hard for that. That’s hard for a lot of people, right, I think I think everyone benefits from, you know, having some reliability to their day. But you know, especially new moms like I mean, I still remember the stress of like, if I think that I can do a feeding at this time, it’s you know, it gets it builds up a different kind of anxiety of schedules are moving and changing. And, you know, you’ve got to adapt on the fly. So I think that just even though, the way we think about the work day has gotten looser in perhaps not not a healthy way for for women.

Kara Goldin 36:44
Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And I think everybody is, is ready to move on to this next phase, but I think it’s definitely it’s got people, you know, sort of trying to figure out exactly how to not only deal with families, but also deal with how to how to manage how to insert yourself into this new environment to so should definitely, definitely pick up this book, it’s quite great for whether or not you’re CEO, or you’re trying to manage people in your company and and then also, if you’re just really interested in being a terrific manager one day in the future, Kate has done such a great job of laying this out and I’m so as I mentioned, I’m so interested in presence learning to you are, it’s terrific what you guys are doing and and it’s definitely helping a lot of people. So I love I love that you’re a helper right that that’s on multiple levels. And where’s the best place for people to pick up the book and learn more about presence learning.

Kate Eberle Walker 37:52
So presence learning, you can find us at presence, learning calm and reach out whatever you need, or your school district needs. The books available on Amazon bookshop, wherever books are sold, and you can find me at my Instagram is at CEO, author, mom. So if you’re interested in following the happenings around the book and events, you can find me there.

Kara Goldin 38:17
That’s awesome. That’s great. Well, thank you so much, Kate, and everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Please give Kate a great five star rating and download the podcast. We are here every Monday and Wednesday with very, very cool CEOs, founders amazing books with many of these CEOs and founders. And of course, pick up a copy of my book if you have not. It’s called undaunted, overcoming doubts and doubters and maybe even grab a bottle of hint along the way, too. And thank you, everybody. Have a great rest of the week, and we will hopefully get to meet you and hear from you soon. Thanks. before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book calm and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara golden and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on facebook Book Instagram, Twitter and like Danna Kara golden golden thanks for listening