Ellen Pack: Co-CEO of Common Sense Media

Episode 665

In this episode of The Kara Goldin Show, we’re joined by Ellen Pack, Co-CEO of Common Sense Media, an organization dedicated to helping families navigate the digital world. Ellen shares her journey from founding Women.com, one of the first major online platforms for women, to leading Common Sense Media, where she’s shaping the conversation around kids, technology, and AI.
Ellen dives into the biggest challenges and opportunities facing families today, including how AI is influencing kids' media consumption, the growing trust issues around online content, and what parents can do to foster healthy digital habits at home. She also breaks down the findings from Common Sense Media’s latest research, including insights from The Common Sense Census: Media Use by Kids Zero to Eight and Teens, Trust, and Technology in the Age of AI.
If you're a parent, educator, or just curious about how technology is shaping the next generation, this episode is packed with must-know insights and actionable advice. Tune in now on The Kara Goldin Show!

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be you. Just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out, knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control. Control. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really, some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Welcome back to the Kara Goldin show. Super, super excited to have our next guest here. We have Ellen Pack, who is the CO CEO of Common Sense Media. And if you have not heard of Common Sense Media, I’m so excited to have her here to talk a lot more about it, or maybe you have heard of it and didn’t really know sort of the back story and everything that they’re involved in, but especially in today’s day and age, I think more than ever, we need to really pay attention to what Common Sense Media is all about. They’re the go to resource for families navigating media and technology since the early 2000s Ellen has spent years at the intersection of tech and media and consumer advocacy. She’s led common sense through some major growth and championing research and policy and digital well being for kids. Before that, she was actually a founder of women.com and took it public. Really, really incredible. So definitely has the founder slant to probably many of the things that she is interested in keeping in the Common Sense Media world. But I can’t wait to hear more of everything that she’s working on, but also a AI’s impact on kids, and the latest research on digital trust and how parents and educators can help the next generation to thrive. So welcome, Ellen, how are

Ellen Pack 2:11
you? Thank you so much. Kara, it’s a thrill to be here.

Kara Goldin 2:14
Super, super excited. So okay, so let’s start with the basics, for those who aren’t familiar with Common Sense Media. And what the core mission is of the organization,

Ellen Pack 2:25
great. So Common Sense Media is a leading nonprofit organization, and we are focused on helping kids thrive in a digital age, and so in this era where the average child is getting a smartphone at age 11, where teenagers are spending upwards of eight and a half hours per day with their screens, where they are receiving 230 notifications a day, our research, our advice, our work, our advocacy efforts on young people’s behalf is so essential, as you can imagine. Yeah,

Kara Goldin 3:03
no, it’s absolutely crazy. So you’re not the founder of Common Sense Media, but you’ve been there for quite some time, and you have been a founder. How different is this role today? Because you came in when there was already great soul to the brand, right? But you saw it through incredible, incredible growth.

Ellen Pack 3:22
Yes, it is. It’s an incredible you know, I think Common Sense Media was really well established in some ways when I got here and and in many ways it was, it was, it’s a 21 year old organization founded by Jim Steyer, who’s, that’s who I’m co CEO with, and lead the organization with every day. And I’ve been here about a dozen years, and so it’s, you know, I definitely have been here for, you know, more than half of the organization, and for these with the kind of, the way we measure time, too, is these waves of technology that have been happening. So when Common Sense Media started, it was about helping families with our app, with our site, you know, find age appropriate movies and TV and apps, you know, then eventually apps, and now social media, and now we look at the advent of AI, and all of that is impacting kids. So it’s like, what has happened is these waves of Technology have just accelerated and happened faster and faster. And so the issues that we work on has broadened tremendously and become really very urgent, and as we all see playing out impact, you know, youth mental health, impact our society, you know, impact a lot of things, right? Yeah,

Kara Goldin 4:35
I could only imagine, I mean, 2003 I’m just thinking I was a AOL survivor. So I just tried to think, like, what was, I mean, what was going on? I mean, certainly not AOL, Google was just kind of getting going, not Facebook, right? Like it was a pretty quiet

Ellen Pack 4:53
world. I mean, there was no iPhone, there was no, you know, so that didn’t come till later. And that’s. You know, sort of, one of the lessons, you know, I feel, is, like, you know, taking that broad perspective of, like, what is your North Star, what is your mission, and then, how do you, how are you adaptable over time, based on, like, the external environment and what’s happening, right? Like, there’s so many, so many things to think about. So, yes, it was early days, for sure. It felt urgent back then, still Right? Right. Just the urgency and, you know, and the acceleration has just only increased since then, yeah,

Kara Goldin 5:26
and it’s so interesting too, because I’m not sure, I mean, I guess video was getting started, but it wasn’t nearly what it is today, a

Ellen Pack 5:34
little. And a lot of these companies may have been, like, started or founded, but like, if you think about it, like Facebook bought Instagram in, I think that was 2012 you know, the Cambridge Analytica scandal happened in 2018 like, so there’s we’ve been at, we’ve all collectively been at this a long time, right, in terms of, like, what has happened, and kind of watching that, you know, evolution of the Internet and of technology and of media, and the role it’s playing in young people’s lives has just, you know, it’s taken years, but yet it feels very, very fast.

Kara Goldin 6:11
So your focus, I mean, I feel like you really have two audiences, or maybe even more than that, you got the parents right, and then, of course, you’ve got the kids, and then educators. Can you talk to me about that? Because you don’t just have one core audience. We have

Ellen Pack 6:32
a very diverse set of stakeholders. We have a lot of audiences. But yeah, we sort of take this multi pronged approach to the change we want to see in the world, right, which is really making everything work better and on behalf of kids. And so the family’s piece is sort of the cornerstone of that is the ratings and reviews. That’s what people know us for. And it starts there. That’s where the journey starts. Like, is this movie okay? For my 10 year old, quickly translates into, you know, what age should I get my kid a phone and what, what you know, what social media apps do I have to look out for? And so that’s like, that’s the the family audience. Then there’s the educator audience. We have a free digital literacy and citizenship curriculum that’s used by more than 70% of schools in the country, and that’s designed to help young people be safe, ethical and responsible online, we’re trying to teach them what is an algorithm, what is misinformation that’s, you know, in those later middle and high school years, but we start really early. We have songs in kindergarten that tell you how to say good night to your device at night, because we know about this aging down of technology, you know. So that’s our educator audience and a really compelling program. And then we have our advocacy efforts, and we’re advocating at both a national and state level to build guardrails into, you know, the internet, if you will, into these platforms that were not designed with kids in mind, and yet, kids immediately, as soon as they have that smartphone by default, they have access to everything, all the all the possibilities we like to stay optimistic and positive, but all the perils that you know, all the content they shouldn’t have access to, all the you know, the feeds that they shouldn’t have access to, and and sort of the harms that that can ultimately cause if they go unchecked. And so we’re helping pass laws around those types of issues.

Kara Goldin 8:27
So AI is becoming a huge part of kids lives, from social media to education. I feel like AI and again, coming from somebody who has really understood or felt like I understood and kept up with the latest. I felt like it just came by storm, and I can only imagine how you felt as a person that gets involved in policy as well as a leader to many different audiences. I’m sure people have asked you about AI in the past, but are we prepared for the impact, I guess, and where do you see it going at this point? It’s

Ellen Pack 9:08
a great question, and it is, you know, again, just to use that word, accelerating really fast. So November 22 chatgpt comes on the scene, and I have to say, like, here at Common Sense Media. Like, we could step back and go, like, Okay, this is coming. What is, what is going to be. But I would say also, you know, there’s this lag. So kids, of course, are some of the earliest adopters. Like, if you think about an early adoption curve, you know, in a classic business, right? So 70% of kids are using it, 53% using it for homework on a daily basis, and in that same sample size, less, you know, a third of their parents have any idea what they’re doing, have any idea that they’re using it. The schools haven’t been able to keep up with creating the policies and like, what are the you know, there’s always an immediate like, ban it, and then there’s like, Oh, that’s really not that practical, because they have access to. Do it everywhere. So we actually need to step back, and we need to train our teachers, and we need to, you know, embrace it and get ready for what it means, right? And so I really do think this is a technology that has the potential to really transform childhood as we know it. I think we’re seeing, and again, we try to always look at, you know, we see things as like, there’s perils and there’s possibilities, and there’s so much, you know, there’s so much good that can come from this technology, you know, as we well experience, like, just access to information and, you know, sort of the, you know, the ability to, you know, create and do things and connect. But then there’s, you know, the sort of, what are the, what are the challenges? We’re seeing a wave right now, I would say, of online companions that has us very concerned. You know, people forming, you’re just starting to hear these stories seep out. But you know, people forming relationships with AI, like actual relationships, you know? And this is like at the stage AI is now, and it’s only going to get better and better, right? And so there’s entire websites that are set up to, you know, you’re hearing it’s being used for therapy. You’re hearing it’s being but when you think about teenagers experimenting with you know, that’s where they’re going. When we talk to teenagers about, like, how are they feeling about it? Or, why do they talk to AI? They’re like, it doesn’t judge me. So interesting. And so you can see that, you know, and you’re like, okay, but that comes with a lot of you know, consequences too, because these models are not trained to protect kids. They’re just not. They’re not trained to, like, help educate kids. Like, they’re trained for adults, they’re trained for world level problem, you know, things and like, again, you’ve got to focus on all the audiences and how it’s going to get misused, or how you know what the risks are.

Kara Goldin 11:56
So if you could sit down with some of these leaders, CEOs of Tiktok, YouTube, Instagram, chat, GPT or open AI, whatever you want to call it, what’s the one thing you tell them that they need to really change immediately?

Ellen Pack 12:15
Um, I you know, that’s a great question, and we do, luckily, have opportunities to sit down with leaders and things, I think, you know, I think if there was, like, one thing, I think could be an excellent solution that we’re not there yet is what I would call age verification, you know, like, if we could, if we could really know, and I know it’s possible to know, but these aren’t, you know, built in. The way they could be built in is sort of and so that we could just provide age appropriate experiences along the way. And, you know, I think that would, that would go wonders. I don’t think that’s, you know, on the horizon, frankly. So what we end up doing is trying to protect, you know, have privacy laws that protect data collection, or we have algorithm laws that try to protect young people from getting algorithmic feeds. Or we try to protect we have one law we help pass in New York, that is, it’s about overnight notifications or, you know, just to protect their sleep, you know. So it’s just like, how do we create sort of safe guard rails? But we would love to sit down with the whole industry and, just like, work on this together, you know, and and provide more, you know, protections. Everybody’s going to use the technology eventually, but they don’t need to use it when they’re five or 10, yeah,

Kara Goldin 13:33
or even, yeah, no, right? Definitely. So screen time, that’s been a topic over the years where everybody has varying opinions, to be honest with you, I lost track. I feel like I used to know what the what the appropriate time they said, you know, for your eyesight, for your brain development, all of those things. And I know it varies, but what is sort of the current thinking behind that?

Ellen Pack 14:03
You know, I think that generally the current thinking is, you know, or I should say, the way Common Sense Media approaches these things is like, we’re pretty pragmatic, like we understand we all live in a world that where we need breaks and distractions, and we need to support our kids and that there’s a lot of peer pressure to to adopt devices. But I think the biggest thing that we try to provide when we give guidance to parents is one protect those early years. And I would say, you know, certainly under two years old, we just came out with research two weeks ago that said 40% of two year olds have their own dedicated iPad, right? And then by the time kids are 450, 8% of those kids have their own iPad. And then by 20, by eight years old, 25% of kids have their own smartphone. I mean, that’s, you know, so there’s a lot there, right? So you want to. Boundaries. You want to keep it out of the bedrooms you want to, you know, so there’s ways that you can live with technology. And as a parent, you know, you can be a really stabilizing force in kids lives, even if they have that technology. There’s ways to create, you know, an environment in your home where they can still thrive, right? With limits, with, you know, like that kind of thing. It’s not a particular number of hours of screen time, per se. I think it’s all about balance. It’s like, are they getting outdoor time? Are they, you know, are they reading? Are they, you know, they can have screen time. And, like, we’re actually big advocates of, like, don’t make it a battleground in your house. Don’t like, don’t make it a big fighting zone. You know, like, you want to, like, get be curious about what the Tick Tock dance that your kids are doing. You want to have fun with them, and you want to embrace some of that. But also role model, hey, there’s, there’s times for devices, and then there’s time for family time, or guests are over, or, you know, so it’s about that balance. So

Kara Goldin 16:07
your latest report teens trust and technology in the age of AI highlights growing concerns about misinformation and AI generated content. What are the biggest sort of takeaways from that report that you want people to know about.

Ellen Pack 16:27
I mean, I think it’s just that, um, you know, people are obviously using the technology that there is a, you know, I think we need to continue to to raise, especially when you think about our young people, critical thinkers like we need to help them understand that not everything they see or the experience that they’re having, this their for you page or their thing is not, does not represent the whole world, right? So that there are, is the importance of diverse perspectives. And, you know, so these are sort of the tenants of what we call our digital citizenship curriculum that we put in K, you know that we distribute through K 12 schools, because it’s like, if we can raise a generation of critical thinkers, they’re ready for all these waves that I was talking about, these waves of technology that are coming. No matter what comes at them, they’ll be ready, if they know, to question things as they see them, right? We all saw, what was it that, like the Pope and the Balenciaga jacket or the, you know, like these crazy things that reach, you know, National Cultural moments. Use those as teachable moments. Use those as times to say, you know, like, yeah, not everything you’re seeing. And we’re going to see this more and more, you know, there’s going to be this flood of, you know, less trustworthy information in your feeds, and that’s okay, if you know what it is, and you can stop, step back and have that perspective, taking and, you know, be a critical thinker about what you’re consuming. So that’s why we think media literacy and critical thinking like that’s, that’s everything. And we want to give kids the agency, you know. We want to give them the tools themselves. We don’t want to just finger wag at them or tell them, No, you know. We want to show them how to own their own time. And you see it happen with like, you know, young people. I have a Gen Z daughter now. You know who grew up with this technology, and I think you see them sort of realizing, some of them know they want to take breaks, they know they want to delete apps for a detox. They know they want to, you know they might come back to it, and that’s okay, but that they have the power and the control, you know, over, and can think about, like, what impact is it having on how I how I am feeling, right? Yeah, even making that connection, how am I feeling when I take a break for a weekend and see how I feel at the end of the weekend, you know, those that’s kind of and we can all take that

Kara Goldin 18:58
advice, right? Yeah, no, absolutely so in terms of, like, the unexpected findings you talked about. I mean, really the mental health aspect of what AI is is doing, and maybe some people feel like it’s helping in some ways, but, but maybe it’s isolating. You know, teens and kids even, even more thinking that these are, you know, real people somewhere. Maybe they can’t really conceptualize that. It’s not and, yeah, why that’s challenging for the future. But what else surprised you about maybe the research that you were doing this

Ellen Pack 19:38
sort of split between and it just tells me we’re still on a journey of like, you know, 40% of teens say they trust companies somewhat or a lot and and then 45% or something say, you know, no, we can’t trust trust these platforms or these companies. But it’s just like we’re all still in this nuance together. Other. And the importance of education is so you know, is so obvious as you look at these statistics and things, you know, it’s just like, how do we bring them along? I think that, you know, the biggest thing is just how far ahead the kids are from their parents, from their teachers. I think almost always, if you had your kids sit down and show you the things that they’re doing, which we really encourage, like, have your kid like, demo, chat, GPT and how they use it, you’ll be blown away by how they’re using it, right? And they’re way ahead of us, and you know, so, like I said, 70% using it, 53% using it for homework. But the parents don’t know, you know. And so if you don’t know, you can either be like, that’s you know, I don’t know what they’re doing, you know. But if you sit down and have them show you or explain it to you, and then you have so much perspective and knowledge. Is what we always try to tell parents, is like, you have so much wisdom to bring to these kids. Even if you don’t understand what the technology they’re using, you understand the world, and you understand people, and you understand all those things. You have so much to bring to the table.

Kara Goldin 21:07
So we’re recording this not too far ahead of where everybody’s listening, but we’re in the process in Washington of looks like to be dismantling or or basically significantly decreasing the Department of Education? What concerns you about that without getting too political? I think everybody wants to be educated right on this, like, what does it really mean for educators? For parents, I feel like there’s going to be, you know, probably some chaos going on, because nobody’s going to really know what to do for a period of time, and especially as it relates to public education,

Ellen Pack 21:54
yeah, well, you know, your listeners may know that, like, the Department of Education does not set curriculum on a national level that’s set at the state level, so technically speaking, it will not impact directly curriculum choices or what gets taught in classrooms, but it is there to provide funding, and particularly for underfunded regions and areas, then those are blue states and red states, right? And it is about providing. And I think you know, just the resources that these schools that are just critically underfunded need to just open the doors and just give lunch to the kids, and just make sure people are safe and, you know, healthy. So I think that is and also just think about the message it sends overall when you’re trying to, you know, I don’t think there’s anything more important than educating our young generation like they’re our future. They’re gonna be taking care of us, you know, like they’re so I think it just sends a very strong message that we’re not there for our teachers, who I think are just, you know, they’re already the least paid, you know, most, most underpaid workers in our country. Probably, you know, for what they we trust them with our children, like, it’s so incredible, right? They’re so amazing. So anyway, it’s just, I think that it’s really just like you said, it’s sort of the it’s the UN it’s the not knowing, it’s the chaos, it’s the lack of funding, it’s the just the huge distraction away from what they need to do every day, which is teach our kids, right, and keep our kids safe and give them a good outlook, and, you know, get them ready for what they need to face, you know, like we want to make sure the schools are teaching AI and teaching, you know, teaching things and getting our kids ready for the for the jobs of the future, right? So that’s, you know. So it’s all of, all of that, but that’s really what it comes down to. It’s the digital equity issues. It’s we, you know, we fought for so many years helping, you know, everybody have internet access, because that’s not a given. It’s expensive. You know, making sure all schools are wired, right? That’s expensive. Those are the kinds of things that a strong Department of Education is ensuring that every school is wired, that every school is connected, that every school is resourced, right? And you know, that’s those are the challenges, I think so.

Kara Goldin 24:30
If we fast forward 10 years, what do you think the biggest challenge of facing parents when it comes to raising kids in this digital first world? Wow, that

Ellen Pack 24:41
is a hard question. Kara, like, it’s, you know, and it’s interesting, because I think back to, you know, my early days at, [email protected] and thinking about, like, watching from, you know, when I first got started on the internet, women were 10% of the internet, you know, honestly, like, that’s crazy, right? That’s like when I started, and it was like, all about building it so so that the future would be there. And I think now we see things so accelerated, it’s just like, hard to even imagine what could be that scale of change. But I do think there could be a world where technology is working on behalf, I like to be an optimist and like, where technology is working on behalf of all of us, that we all have these agents who are, you know, helpful, personalized tutors, you know that talk about the equity issues, everybody having access to a fantastic education, everybody having access to the information of the world, like, whether that’s coming to you through a screen or an

Kara Goldin 25:45
implant, or, you know,

Ellen Pack 25:46
whatever, our glasses, I have no idea, you know, like, we watch these things, you know, evolve. So I don’t, I’m not a futurist in that sense, but I do see that even at, you know, five years is a big horizon where huge change can happen, and that can really impact a child, right?

Kara Goldin 26:08
Yeah, definitely, definitely. I, you know, it’s interesting. I have a son. One of my kids is in college and and is pre med and is thinking about, you know, what the different jobs are that are out there. And I remember when I was in college in the dark ages, I mean, we would maybe think about the different types of jobs that that, you know, are possible. And for him, I think he’s been able to really think about it from the perspective of, what will AI, which jobs will become obsolete, right? And especially in medicine, right? And I think it’s actually figuring out, you know, things, I mean, AI is doing incredible things around genetics and and, I mean, he’s shown me like stuff that I couldn’t even imagine is going on in some of these biotech firms that is certainly not my area, but also as it relates to medicine, and I think that there is a lot of good going on, but I feel like for him, he’s actually he’s sped up, sort of his thinking he’s not going to sit there and research it for very long. This is a very, very quick decision for him, whether or not it’s right, is a whole other story. Because I think that that’s part of the problem with with AI and some of the social platforms that are out there. You know, when they have enough Tiktok views, then that’s going to be the product that you want to buy, or whatever it is. But how do you think that that will affect, I guess you know how people are making these decisions in, you know, our youth, I mean Gen Z. I mean he’s on kind of the older end of Gen Z, but I I see it being very helpful, but also a little bit making very fast decisions so that I can move on to go do real work. I

Ellen Pack 28:20
get that. I It’s tough. And you’ve probably heard about, like, the impacts on attention span and this and that he your son, sounds very, you know, driven and dedicated. And so I always, you know, the way I think about that kind of thing is, once he makes, you know, the core decision he’s going to make is, like, whether to go to med school or not. But once he makes that decision. You know, as long as he has had that foundational training, back to the critical thinking part, he’ll be in it, and then he’ll be watching these things as, you know, with your career, with my career, like once you’re in in the arena, if you will, you know that you can watch the gradual changes, or the even the fast changes, but you’re you’re able to process them with the information that you have. I think it’s when you’re sitting on the outside of something it’s harder, like it just looks out of control, right? But, but I think medical innovation is one of the places that, I mean, we could eradicate key diseases. I mean, it’s just so exciting. So, like, I just love that he wants to get in there and, like, be part of it. And I think, you know, I don’t think he can make a wrong decision in the sense, like, I think there’s going to be, he’s going to be in a profession that is evolving with, what, with the technology, right,

Kara Goldin 29:37
definitely. And as it relates to sort of tech entrepreneurs who are building platforms aimed at kids and families. What’s your wish for some of those tech entrepreneurs out there as they think about building the next big thing that is really going to be helpful to kids? What do you think that? What would you say to them?

Ellen Pack 29:58
Yeah, I think. Um, I would just to steep themselves in the core child development, you know, Canon, if you will. You know, like of what kids really need in their lives. You know, kids don’t need, necessarily, more technology in their lives. I get that. It’s part of reality, and it will be there. But they don’t necessarily need that. They they need really strong human relationships and connections in their lives all the way from the very young ages to their to the teen years and so but I think there’s plenty of great technology that can be developed, if you center like kids healthy development and everything you do, and if that’s your North Star, like, I want to create something that is going to help kids, help kids thrive, then I’m sure there’s, like, many things you could create that would would help that. But it’s I think the business models are really challenging, right? Because once you get into creating a product, then you have to, like, worry about the accelerated adoption of that product and all of these things, and it can lead you to places where, you know, a business model or business needs, drives you in places that might not be the best for the kids. So it’s just, that’s the trick, right? Like, how do you really center and have that as your North Star, that I am building something that’s going to make a better world for kids? That’s, that’s what I would hope for.

Kara Goldin 31:29
I love it. So if you could give our listeners one piece of sort of thinking around, you know, helping kids, whether they have kids or not, thrive in the world within their lives, what would it be?

Ellen Pack 31:46
I would just say kids are often overlooked, which I know sounds not necessary. You know it sounds unusual for those of us that are might be parents, but I think it’s really thinking about your kids are so smart. They know what’s good for them. They’re telling you what’s good for them through their through their actions and their emotions. And it’s just like trusting your instinct and listening to your kids and having conversations with your kids. I think you can’t go wrong as long as you’re really engaged and and I say that with full understanding that kids are tough, especially in the teen years, you know, but I think they need you, and you need to be there for them, and role modeling for them, and doing all the things and and you have the toolkit. Like, that’s what I always say to parents, because they always want to know, like, very what’s the blueprint, or what’s the this? And it’s just like you have everything you need. You can do this. You know you are your child’s biggest advocate and and just wake up every day remembering that

Kara Goldin 32:51
definitely well, Ellen, this conversation has been incredible. Common Sense, media, you guys are doing such important work around policy and research and definitely leading the charge for parents as well as people who are interested in the next generation being even better than they are today. It’s reassuring to know that you guys are around and doing all of this. So you and and Jim Steyer, so thank you everyone for listening. If you want to stay informed about all things Common Sense Media, it’s Common Sense Media.org, and if you love this episode, be sure to give us a review and share it and everything. Thank you so much. Ellen. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Kara. Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit. And of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin, I would love to hear from you, too, so feel free to DM me, and if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book, undaunted, where I share more about my journey, including founding and Building. Hint, we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening, and goodbye for now. Bye.

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