Shawn Nelson: Author of Let Me Save You 25 Years

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I’m so excited to have my next guest here, he is a return guest, I should mention. So we have Shawn Nelson, who is the founder and CEO of the furniture manufacturer called Lovesac. And if you haven’t bought a Lovesac yet, you definitely need to do that. But the key thing that we’re going to talk about today is this brand new, incredible book called Let me save you 25 years. And I don’t know if it’ll save you 25 years or what will save you a lifetime. But definitely the title of this book sense at all, as Shawn knows from experience, having encountered some little, many hidden or unanticipated difficulties along the way since you started his company Lovesac more than two decades ago. It’s such a great read, and definitely a very, very beautiful, almost coffee table book. It’s really super nice. So I’m excited to have Shawn back to talk a little bit more on the show about all of the different aspects of the book, including the great lessons that come along with it. So welcome, Shawn, how are you? So good. Thanks for having me. Yeah, super excited. So first, I’d love for you. For anybody who’s not familiar with Lovesac. Maybe you can just give sort of a background on the company. Yeah,

Shawn Nelson 2:11
the the quick version is hence the title of the book. It’s been a 25 year saga, we started as a giant not being bad company, we make these, you know, beanbags full of shredded foam that could fill the back of a truck made those in college as a side hustle. Got a big order forced me to build a factory using farm equipment, crazy stories there, some of which we unpacked on our first round on your podcast. And in our unpacked deeply in the book, all kinds of gory details, photos to go with this stuff, you know, uh, hey Buster, hey grinder, farm equipment used to shred foam. And wanting to keep going after completing that big ordered right out of college, opened our first retail store at a mall in Salt Lake City, Utah, during the Winter Olympics there back in 2001. And it worked and people, we ended up opening more stores all over the West, I ended up winning a reality TV show with Richard Branson on Fox raised venture capital off of that private equity, had to restart the company along the way. I mean, it’s all the all the glorious details, the highs and the extreme lows. full chapter 11 Start over everything are in this book. And finally kind of making it out in the I don’t know the last decade, we came public in 2018, making mostly sectionals, these modular couches, you can have the rest of your life the company was doing 100 million then when we came public. And now this year, roughly 700 is where the analysts show us wrapping up the year that we’re in just completing right now. And so it’s been a wild ride from my parents basement to you know, a billion dollars in valuation at different times, depending on the stock market. And now we’re still going and have lots in store for the future.

Kara Goldin 3:58
That’s wild. So you wrote this incredible book called Let me save you 25 years. Why now? What was it that you said I gotta go write a book? Well,

Shawn Nelson 4:08
as the stories unfold, just more and more fantastic things have happened crazy. So the subtitle is mistakes, miracles, and lessons from the Lovesac story. And there have been all of those endless sort of crazy events that you couldn’t dream up happening along the way. You know, every time I’ve ever wanted to quit. There has been reasons that I couldn’t, you know, miracles happening that have allowed me to kind of keep going or or convince me to kind of keep going through all the craziest hardest times. And waking up celebrating our 25th anniversary. Last year, I realized, oh my gosh, if I’m ever going to put this out there, now’s the time. So we did it in tandem with that it’s just come out. And you know, double entendre right. It’s a quick short story. You could read it in like an hour. But I’ve wanted to do something different. I’ve read all the business books. And I wanted to put something out there that was very different. So as you see, it’s loaded with just gritty images. You know, this was began before we all had a phone in our pocket the story, so they are not pretty, but they’re real. And I tried to share the real story with the real images full bleed, you know, it’s more like a coffee table book, as you said, and it’s basically one chapter is is a story in the end, and the chapter following kind of is the lesson that comes along with it and these 25 Little Shawn isms, you know, lessons I learned the hard way and perhaps, might not save you 25. But it might save you a decade. I think I could have saved a decade, I think I could have gotten to where I am now in business a decade earlier. You know, as they say, if I had only known then what I know now and just trying to share that out.

Kara Goldin 5:50
When you think I’ve one of your earliest, hardest lesson. Maybe you said okay, this is where it’s, it’s, it’s all gonna. It’s gone to hell in a handbasket. Yeah. Can you think about that? Like, what was one of the craziest stories that maybe told your buddies or, you know, told your kids about? I mean, we certainly in growing hints have many, many stories along the way that we still, you know, sometimes we’re even thinking about things that we hadn’t even talked about in years, right. But yeah, what was one of the earliest phrases stories that you learn that now you look back on that? I don’t know, maybe kind of got in the way of you actually being able to grow in some way? Well,

Shawn Nelson 6:44
a good example, one of the stories I unpack in the book is we were a bunch of kids trying to make this thing work and hats off to us like the first John ism in the book, write chapter one. First lesson, just do something. And I did I got off the couch made a big beanbag. But that hurtled us down this path where eventually we got this giant order, we had to complete by Christmas for this big client, I’d taken their money I’d spent their money on deposit I had to I had to make this worker is going to ruin me. And I was in the factory that we had built using farm equipment, getting the pallets the first pallets ready to load on a full sized semi truck, using a forklift, you know, front to back loaded with small shrunken down sacks that we had shredded using this farm equipment and everything about it was ridiculous. And the only reason for me was because we couldn’t afford, you know, a proper German shredder for half a million dollars. This, you know, it was a quarter million dollar order, we had to build the factory on credit cards. And I remember I’d ordered my first ever semi truck what what do I know about a semi truck, you know, it’s a 13 foot tall semi truck. So we built 13 foot tall pallets. And when the semi truck backed up to the door to take the full first two weeks worth of shrink of shredded and shrunken sacks, boxed, palletized shrink wrapped. Each pallet was like five feet too tall to fit in his truck. And I remember calling the trucking company, you know, screaming at them, like what the heck, you guys sent me a short gender? I don’t know, let me find out like what truck Shut up. And the truth is, we were just too dumb as a bunch of 20 somethings to know that 13 feet meant 13 feet from the ground measuring up and there’s that space underneath that semi truck. So in other words, the box itself is more like 889 feet. We didn’t know what we didn’t know, we couldn’t have known it. And we could have had I’ve been humble enough and I guess smart enough to go really get someone involved who knew their stuff. But we were piecing it together. And I think you know, so there’s lots of lessons packed in this book about you know, finding mentors of finding experts, listening to experts not listening to experts, because there’s a time for both, you know, one of one of the Shawn isms mind, the experts, there’s, there’s, there’s pros and cons to having experts tell you what you can and can’t do. And all the all these lessons along the way that I try to I try to marry these lessons with these stories to illustrate. And so, you know, the whole point of that story is we were just too dumb to even know, and could have avoided those problems. Had we done some things differently and probably should have.

Kara Goldin 9:21
Well, yeah, I loved that story. Because it’s, you know, and maybe it’s the saying, you know, fake it until you make it right? Especially when you’re young. You just don’t want to ask, right and yet, how many of your friends were actually trying to hire, you know, the same kind of people that you needed to do this to sort of ask and I mean, where would you have gone I guess you could have figured it out but it’s just it really truly is a you know, you think you know what you’re doing and I think it also speaks to I remember reading that story in the book, it also speaks to, you know, it’s kind of lonely at the top. Yeah, right here. You’re a young entrepreneur, and you’re trying to show that you’ve got it all together. But you just don’t want to show how vulnerable you really are. Right? And it’s,

Shawn Nelson 10:19
it’s tricky, because sometimes you’re just moving so fast that, you know, you could stop to do the research or ask the questions or seek out the mentors, but at the same time, we were just trying to survive. And in a way, I don’t regret it, because obviously, it got us here. But I do think, you know, at the time at Listen, at the time, this podcast didn’t exist, podcast didn’t exist. We were bootstrapping. Before the word bootstrapping had, I think been invented, like all of this modern culture over the last two decades of young entrepreneurship, you know, startup culture, hustle culture, none of that was the thing. This, this, this story began in 1995, technically. And so and the story I just told happened around 2001. And so you know, the arc I think of the 25 years has value in itself because because today I would be entrepreneur of any age has so much resource, they can listen to your podcasts, they can listen to my podcast, also called Let me save you 25 years and and where we go deep and every one of these Shawn isms with guests like you, you were kind enough to come on and be my guest. And we unpack these things very deeply. And it’s all free. Like all the proceeds from my book are donated to the FBLA. Like, I’m not even taking any money from it. Same thing with podcasting. What no advertise on my like, I’m just trying to put it out there as you are. And oh, cara cara in a lot of ways, because it’s, it’s good for the world. It’s obviously and by the way, the meta opportunity of us connecting through this medium, as entrepreneurs to help each other and network and and do whatever. But there’s so much now, and I didn’t have that then. But it’s only useful to you if you’re taking advantage of it.

Kara Goldin 12:11
Yeah, no, I totally agree. There’s, there’s definitely places to find it, for sure. And there weren’t as many. Absolutely. So you gain some recognition in the entrepreneurial world in the show, rebel and billionaire. And drive the name correct. Yeah. Yeah. And in the early 2000s, if you could sum up that experience, what would it be?

Shawn Nelson 12:41
Look traveling the world for two months with Richard Branson on his airline landing in, I don’t know, 11 different locations all around the globe and competing against you know, people like Sara Blakely, who was in the final with me and founder of Spanx. It was, it was a dream. It was unreal, it was hard to believe that that happened, but it did. And I wanted I want a million dollars on TV. And I think you know, but even that, like there’s, there’s lessons in that, like, at the time, Richard handed me this check on Fox Network for a million dollars. And it was done. Because at the time, that was the biggest prize ever seen on TV. It was the first show shot all in high def, and it was all over the world is beautiful show. And I’m only thinking oh my gosh, I have 2 million in debt. Like this isn’t even going to, you know, fix it. But But, and you can’t see that on TV. I’m not gonna say that on TV. And so you never really know the backstory, you know, that we see so much. And entrepreneurship is glossy, and entrepreneurship is sexy. And, you know, I’ve known a net since then a few billionaires and 100 millionaires. And there’s a lot behind the glass that you don’t know, and you can’t know. And in the end, everybody’s struggling in one way or another. If it’s not with money, or funding or whatever, it’s just the grind of it, or their family’s falling apart or things that you can’t see through the TV or through the video or, you know, behind the scenes. I think it’s universal. So I don’t mean to take it all negative, it was a dream. And it was amazing. And it got me started the rebel billionaire with Richard Branson, but it did not fix everything, and brought its own set of problems. You know, I remember I experienced my 15 minutes of fame. And people. One of the things this is gonna sound really weird, and it’s not in the book, but one of the things that people underestimate about fame. And I wasn’t super famous, but locally, I was in Utah. I was like a household name because I was like the local kid who won a million dollars with Richard Branson on TV. People lose their empathy for you, you know, like now You’re just a rich guy, or you’re famous guy. And if you’re not kind at every moment, at every turn of every interaction, you’re just a jerk, or what have you. And and I got to experience a little bit of that and realize, like, Oh, this is the price of being famous, so to speak for just one minute. Thankfully, like, I wouldn’t want massive fame after all that. And so all kinds of lessons from all of these experiences. And that was the goal of the book is just to kind of share some of those and be useful if I can.

Kara Goldin 15:34
And Richard has been a friend of yours for many, many years. From that experience to which is just absolutely awesome. You and I talked about that, that I had a chance to go to Necker and it was just really, really amazing. So and highly recommend it to anybody who’s, who’s listening. They’re constantly there’s all kinds of entrepreneurial, different trips that different people have put together that I highly recommend trying to get there. I think just the the island in and of itself is absolutely gorgeous, and really terrific. But it always seems like there’s really interesting people that are there too. Every time I meet people and talk to people who have had an experience there. They tell me about different groups that have gone there, too.

Shawn Nelson 16:24
Yeah, it’s almost like this mecca for entrepreneurship. And it’s neat what Richard done with his life and with his, I mean, that island, you know, he bought in 1978 for $120,000.

Kara Goldin 16:36
I know, it’s insane. It’s, it blows my mind. Yeah.

Shawn Nelson 16:41
And of course now, I mean, it’s, it’s almost priceless. But it’s neat to see that he didn’t just turn it into only a Bougie resort, but a place where people connect. And to this day, he’s still there, you know, showing face and hosting. I was just there a few weeks ago, actually on one of these with Liberty ventures, and that’s a cool one. There’s lots of different ways that you can get to places if not Necker, like Necker, to connect with people like Kara, you know, or me or, you know, other like minded individuals that you can learn, grow. And, you know, benefit from being connected or just learn from and, but you have to put yourself out there and, you know, again, back to back to the Shan isms, you know, that was that was the one that came from Necker Island, chapter 13. Make your own luck. That was me and Richard laying on the roof of the Great Hall house before it burned the old great house on Necker. And I asked, he was asking about what I believed, and I got into religion. And I asked him, and he said, Well, I believe we make our own luck. And at first I didn’t I write about this in the book, I didn’t really buy into that, because luck just seems so dismissive. But after a lot of bad luck, and, you know, bad timing in life, collaborating to bring us down at different moments, you start believing in luck. I mean, if there’s bad luck there, there must be good luck to, and not just divine providence, always. And, and so anyway, you know, I have a lot of feelings and thoughts about that, but But Richard kind of inspired that shamanism and I and I think, to this point, if you can’t put yourself in places like that, where you can bump into people and make connections and see what comes of all that. How can you expect any luck? You know, if you’re not out there creating true.

Kara Goldin 18:33
It’s so so true. So I want to talk about that, though, for a second. So the finding your luck, like, let’s say, you’re feeling like, you start a company, nothing’s going right. You know, obviously, you have to sort of look at the overall business and the idea and all those things, but how do you lock in your journey, if you’re just feeling like it just things or just the world is against you? And obviously, I think any entrepreneur has days like that, but what would you say to that? Yeah,

Shawn Nelson 19:09
I would say that’s where my testimony of luck came from, is from those feelings of the world is against me, like, okay, so if there’s bad luck, it’s like, Are you kidding me like this happen, and that and it happens to be at this time, when a check just cleared and we don’t, you know, whatever, I don’t know, just the world conspiring against you. On the other hand, if that’s true, then luck is in play. And I very much believe we have we experience these waves and these moments, but if we’ve not continued to push through, do the work network, read the books, learn the things, meet the people. Do the work on your hands and knees sometimes, you know, in my case on a ladder opening showrooms myself when we just didn’t have the money to do it, and it just had to be my own sweat equity, my own grit And then things happen. And in hindsight, usually you realize, oh, that was pretty lucky. But in the moment is just your life happening to you. And you look if you’re religious, you can thank God and look, I I am. And I think that to some degree, it’s all connected. You know, my I talked about this in the book, I’m pretty honest and open with it. You know, I don’t think as a believer, I don’t think God created the universe as a magician. I think, you know, there are meteors hurtling all over the galaxy. And, and I think that the big bang or they are the, you know, the the happenstance that maybe, you know, if you want to get scientific about it create from the earth to, to even human relationships as we ricochet off of other people. And things happen and unfold. And oh, my gosh, who could have guessed that this, this meeting this one person would lead to this other connection that led to my funding of my company, or who knows what our is not so different than asteroids hurtling around the cosmos, colliding and combining elements in a way to crater. So I don’t mean to get so esoteric. But I but I believe that we now make our own luck. And Richard kind of taught me that. And I believe that and I think but you have to be out there making it. And listen, sometimes it can be yours. And that’s the benefit of a story like mine. Look, I wish, I have friends who they’re richer than me, they made more money than me, they did it in 2345 years, they’ve already under their second, third, fourth, fifth guys over to the company, I started college. But there’s a benefit to that too. And by the way, I think I’m building a Nike, I think I have a shot at building a brand that’s here for 50 or 100 years, I really do. Now, whether that’ll happen, we’ll see. But I’m in the middle of it. It’s not like my story’s over at 25 years, it’s just this is just kind of where we’re at. It was a good moments write the book. And so there’s benefit to long stories, there’s benefit to short stories, you’re always comparing yourself. And usually, sadly, the media picks up on the really shiny ones, the really fast ones, the really hot ones. And then we think that’s normal. And by the way, for every one of those, as we all know that data, there’s 10, more or 100 More that failed. So if you’re lucky enough to even be breathing, to be able to rub two nickels together and keep your thing going whatever that thing is, you’re already in the top 10%.

Kara Goldin 22:21
Yeah, definitely. And I think it also speaks to I always say complacency will kill you. Were you know that I think that that goes along with a lot of what you’re saying too. It’s like, you’ve got to keep moving, and finding out going out and trying new things. And I felt that way in your book, too, that you didn’t have all the answers you were, you know, tripping, but you just kept getting back up. And I think like that is we talked about resilience and tenacity and all of those things. And I think it’s, it’s very rare that you that an entrepreneur, maybe they’re not going to do it the first time. But you know, the ones that actually show that they’re not going down, right, they’re gonna keep getting back up again, and keep moving. And I think that that’s also what your story really lays out for people. And I also love the pictures too, because I’m a visual person. So that’s really helpful. But in the book, you talk about the long term entrepreneurial journey, and the challenges that persist for you as revenue increases. What? What comes to mind when I say that to you?

Shawn Nelson 23:39
Yeah, I mean, one of the one of the stories I share in the book is I’m standing in front of my college class, I become a leader in life, I become a teacher in the master’s program at Parsons School of Design. So top design school in the world, teaching their master’s program in New York City, don’t ask me how it all transpired. It was amazing. It was a cool experience. And I’m feeling like a total fraud. Because I’m presenting to them. My, my framework, I call the the 12 W’s framework. It’s like a strategic Guide, which I think is a foolproof way to build like a strategic plan for business. And I’m presenting it as the answer to so many things. And meanwhile, my business is falling apart and might be done in the next 30 days, if I can’t get this funding, and I’m thinking how could my business possibly be as fragile at 70 million in revenues? As it wasn’t seven, or it? I don’t know, seven $7,000 in revenue, like it just feels the same? It’s the numbers are much bigger, and the consequences are higher. I’ve got four kids now, you know, like, oh, my gosh, I and I’m still renting at the time, like I could be financially ruined. And yet here I am now at 700. How ironic is that? And I’m not saying it’s as fragile necessarily, but the feelings are the same at the same time like I’ve got to stay ahead of my competition, they’re biting at my heels, they’ve got, you know, different patents that will expire, I’ve got to be innovating into other categories. And I’ve got now 1500 employees that are counting on me to make good decisions. So that doesn’t impact them. And in a market that’s terrible for the furniture category right now, in real time, like most of my competitors are down 20% For the last two years, year on year straight, loves, thankfully, love sacks grown a little bit. But we were growing at like 45% 40, I don’t know, 40% for almost a decade, a decade of growth, and it’s slowed down. And so you know, it makes you nervous, and it makes you thoughtful about what comes next. And thankfully, we have a bright future. And we have a lot of great things coming. But I gotta stay sharp. And so I think like no matter and by the way, I believe, and I don’t mean to speak for him, but I believe to some degree Richard Branson, just to pick on him because we were talking about him feels that way. You know, he’s got all these different businesses. And by the way, he’s had hundreds succeed and hundreds fail literally, along the way. There’s, there’s the goal of moguls, and it just never ends. It just never ends. There’s always something ebbing and flowing and working and not working. Whether we’re talking about one business or multiple business, or just within one business, there are elements that are working in elements that are not. And so it I don’t tell you, it’s hard. But that’s why they pay you I harp on this. That’s why they pay you the big bucks. You are the you are the CEO of your own life decisions are tough. There’s no right answer. And that’s why CEOs are paid so much. Because it’s flippin hard.

Kara Goldin 26:36
Yeah, definitely. So it’s so crazy how our lives are, are the four kids and starting a company. And it’s so crazy how there’s so many similarities in your story, just a different industry. Yeah. So I, I love the chapter where you describe planning an exit strategy, and then shifting to focus on continuing to build. So what lessons I don’t know pivots or like what lessons can really be learned from that? Yeah.

Shawn Nelson 27:10
Well, there are a few of the Shawn isms I celebrate in the book, embrace uncertainty. I think it’s something I’ve never heard talked about much in entrepreneur circles. Occasionally, I’ll get a whiff of it. But I’ve thought a lot about what makes an entrepreneur an entrepreneur. And one of the key attributes that is vague and hard to put your finger on, is the ability to embrace uncertainty, the ability to thrive in uncertainty. And I think those of us who are entrepreneurs, take for granted this superpower, because it’s just how we live, like we’re just kind of like live with it, where uncertainty can break. No uncertainty can break normal people down into a pile of mush. Like they would sooner know the answer and take less pay, take a worse outcome take, you know, whatever, to get certain, over just not knowing not knowing how this is going to work out not knowing where it’s gonna go from here. And so if you get the sense, and look, it’s hard on all of us, even those of us who have a stomach for it. But if you get the sense, like you cannot deal with uncertainty, well, then maybe entrepreneurship is not for you. And that is not a criticism. If everyone were an entrepreneur, we would not have anybody working at Lovesac. Everyone just be running around doing their own thing. And we need people of all kinds of different expertise to build things to truly build things. And that’s where I’m at now is like, obviously, we’re past the startup phase. We’re a public company traded on NASDAQ has been public first going on six years now. I’m proud of that. And it’s rare to have a founder that’s able to stick around. I’m proud of that. And we’ll you know, I hope that we can continue. But it means I have to be sharp. Like I’m I’m no longer just like the owner of the company outright or that sort of thing. So what that’s another thing that we I unpack in the book is, so what’s the answer to that? Well be Michael Jordan. Like nobody wanted Michael Jordan to leave the boat. He wasn’t the owner of the team. He wasn’t the coach of the team. But certainly nobody wanted him gone. And so how do you make yourself how do you maintain control? Be Awesome. Now, what’s wrong with that? Are you afraid of being awesome? I mean, that’s ownership, right? That’s true ownership. And I boil that down and other shown ism too. It’s your fault. Like have this attitude. Like no matter where you are in organization, you don’t have to be the CEO, you whatever you happen to be in charge of that you are false. So I have all these little pithy phrases that I live by and that we unpack in depth on the book and on the podcast. Let me save you 25 years. But the lessons are endless. As you know, Karen, by the way, after I finished these first 25 on the podcast, I’ll go another 25 Because the lessons are and listen, they’re the same, like you have, you know, the same things care. And that’s what’s so fun about the podcast is I get out people like you on. And I don’t you don’t need any prep, I can give you any one of these Jonathan’s, you’ve already learned the same things. I know that.

Kara Goldin 30:22
No, it’s so it’s so true. And I think that that’s where, where people learn. I mean, I go back to your in YPO as well, I think it’s this theory that just by hearing somebody else’s story of how they’ve been through something, versus actually solving somebody’s problems for them. The former is the most helpful that people write that they can put it into their own framework, but being able to see that, hey, Sean’s been through this, he’s still standing. He still has his, you know, smile, he gets dressed every day, you know? Like, survive, right. And I think that’s a really powerful thing for people to be able to see and your stories definitely are, you know, jaw dropping, to say the least. And I think just being able to put it into a framework where people can learn from it is just really super helpful. So I’ve heard you say, as someone who is ambitious, being patient or sometimes telling people to be patient feels really unambitious. Being, what is it being forced to take it slow? I’ve learned great patient is is a superpower and is your superpower. So I’d love to hear your take on on patience and how, how does one become patient? I, I can’t say that’s my superpower. Still, to this day, I am forced to be patient, but I’m not happy about the patient. Yeah,

Shawn Nelson 32:04
thank you. That’s very astute. And it’s the final shamanism in the book, maintain top ambition, with infinite patience. And I’ve learned so much of it is an attitude. Listen, no one would accuse me of being a patient person, my wife, my kid, no one, probably. But I believe I am. Because I’ve been forced by life to become that right? Like, it’s taken me this long just to get my company here. And by the way, there’s things that pop sooner and do this or happen faster, whatever. And so it’s kind of been forced upon me. But I’ve learned that just because you can adopt an attitude of extreme patience. Like it’ll take as long as it takes like, like put on the put on that jacket for a minute. I will I will take as long as it takes like you did this with your podcast. And now it’s in the top 1% of all podcasts. I’m I’m I’m on the road. I’m only on episode 13 car. And and but it this is the trick. So it goes along with grit, do you are you able to maintain that attitude like I will go as long as it takes. When were most people they get seven episodes in it doesn’t even 20 or even 100. And and at the end. And by the way, maybe they should quit. I’m not saying you should just stick with everything. But if you can maintain top ambition, so if you’re and that’s the trick, too. It’s not just patience. It’s not just grit. But mean like so what do you want, you want to be in the top of podcasts, okay, buckle up and don’t lose sight of that. Now you it’s not enough just to keep going either. You have to do other things, you have to navigate you. You went and did 500 podcasts, other people’s podcasts to get the word out there on yours. Well, that didn’t take less than a year. I mean, or two or three or four, like, so. It wasn’t just that you could stick with a podcast is that your ambition didn’t change. You want to be at the top? I do too. I want Lovesac to go on to become a Nike to be a 50 or 100 year brand. Okay, how long is that going to take? I don’t know. So, it I found through all this, it becomes quite motivating also to my own team, when they get the set. They don’t get the sense from me ever. Like, oh, you know, maybe Shawn will sell all this stock next year and be kind of done and then it’ll you know, then Lovesac will be owned by public CO and they’ll recruit a seat new CEO. People are often terrified of that because you never know where a company goes. And usually, usually it doesn’t necessarily go great. Unless the founder tinkering around or screwing up. You know, it often doesn’t go great from there. And so when my attitude is not only will I do this now for as long as it takes. Now whether or not that’s true, who knows, maybe a meteor comes along and someone buys the company for a trillion dollars and you know, they walk away with it. They don’t want me there, but my attitude has to be I will will go as long as it takes. And then that becomes contagious. And I’m able to say to my people, when sometimes they’re like, Oh, another year where we can’t afford to hire for this or that, and I can put my arm around and be like, just be patient. And now I’m the one, usually the driver, the entrepreneur, the go getter that like we can do everything, we can do anything. And now I’m the one, like the old guy in the room saying, just be patient. And yet, we’ll go another year without hiring for that, because we can’t afford to this year, because it’s a down year, it’s a tough year. And when you have that attitude, by the way, it often unfolds that it’s not so tough the year and you can hire for that, and you get lucky. But your attitude has to be as long as it takes. And it’s amazing how lucky you can get when that’s your attitude, and what a good culture that breeds as opposed to like, Am I just gonna make this guy rich Am I Is he just, you know, looking for a chance to drop the mic and walk away. Because by the way, there’s so much of that there’s so much wealth extraction out of companies that ruins companies, because that’s all that they’re motivated by, it’s just sucking the wealth out. And the culture dies on the vine. And so I think the magic is when you can maintain top ambition with infinite patience.

Kara Goldin 36:16
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. So I mean, I think a lot of what you’re talking about, too, is leadership, right? So it’s being able to, you know, think back on some of those stories. I think with age, that’s what I have always said to my team, too. It’s, it’s a, you know, remembering the 2008 2009 times, which were pretty for anybody versus, you know, looking at COVID. And everything going on during that time, I think it’s, it’s, if you’re not old enough to be able to remember some of those really hard times where you have the patience, and you have the curiosity to figure it out and get back up again, and all of those different points that you point out in your chapters, I think it’s the it’s just so key to be able to share those with people. And and, and I think being able to lead from that perspective is also just absolutely key. So

Shawn Nelson 37:15
it’s super an honesty like I, I’ve tried hard with this book, and with my podcast, to be really honest. And put it the way it is, it’s not always flattering and embarrassing. Like I’ve been through a lot of crap. And it’s, you know, and I’m not the because of it, I’m not the richest guy in the world. And it may never be I mean, I’ll do fine. I’m not complaining. My point is, is like I have plenty of rich friends, who in some cases might trade places with me, just to have four kids who still like them, or that they didn’t miss their job. And so there’s a balance to all this. And I talked about in the book, you know, one of the Shawn isms, my favorite play along the way. And you know, and everything else is dust and putting your priorities first. And so look, these say, oh my gosh, really, like you’ve talked about grit and surviving. And now you’re talking about like, maybe putting your family first in my case, that’s, you know, what matters to me? Yeah. And by the way, oh, how do you do that? It’s hard. It is so hard. It’s not easy. And it’s a daily, minute to minute, hourly endeavor to be present, and then be engaged, and then work in the scenes and cracks and sometimes go on night, and sometimes travel heavy and sometimes not. But you are the CEO of your life. That’s why they pay you the big bucks. And CEO decisions are hard. So buckle up and get used to it.

Kara Goldin 38:33
That’s so true. How old are your kids? What’s the range?

Speaker 2 38:38
My kids are 15 1311 and nine, three girls and a boy is the 11 year old. That’s

Kara Goldin 38:44
really cool. It’s i i talked about in my book, I talked about my son who’s a senior in college now. And you know, it’s so fun for me now is watching my kids who basically grew up and he went and grew up in, you know, walking into Target stores and pulling cases out from the back room with me. I mean, what kids do that, but how much they learned about business, about management about leadership. And like, Just overall, it’ll be really fun. I started really seeing a lot of that around 1780, which is, you know, not too far from when you started your company. Right. But those things start the dots eventually connect right to bring our Steve Jobs theme back in here, but it’s it’s definitely a it’s really fun to see that though. It’s sort of another aspect of entrepreneurship that I think a lot of people don’t talk about and you know how much your kids are are benefiting actually from watching knew and go through the good times. And also the challenging times. And again, Richard, I mean, I think she’s, you know, clearly his kids have have seen that as well.

Shawn Nelson 40:12
I had a friend say to me the other day, who’s a very wealthy friend who exited early retired in his 40s. And it was interesting, he actually caught he actually called me or texted me and said, You know, I mean, on the one hand, I really like, I wish I was just flying around on planes and surfing a lot or whatever, I’m still in the grind. On the other hand, obviously, I have enough expertise around me that I don’t have to do some of the unmount on the ladder, setting up stores anymore, like I got past that. And, and I get to have more time than I did before. You know, my life has ebbed and flowed. But this friend of mine said to me, I really envy you. Because I realized my kids don’t see me work. So here he is super wealthy, retired, you know, and he’s an MD is me, because I’m still in the grind. And, and so I think there’s value in just, you know, listen, people were meant to work, in my opinion, and doesn’t mean you have to work forever, doesn’t mean you have to grind your life away. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t times in your life to do less, or, you know, focus more on your family, or whatever it may be. But I think that, at some level, human beings are meant to work, and it’s okay. And I think that it’s natural and normal. And if you can not wreck your life, for work if you can find a way to do that. And, you know, achieve some good things and be productive. By the way entrepreneur, not entrepreneur, employee, it doesn’t matter. There’s value in that. And I think some of that’s overlooked, I think we’re all chasing like Necker Island, and like, Oh, that was rich enough to do. I know a lot of people who have no things. And I still believe, I want to believe that building something in any level, being a part of something doesn’t matter if you’re CEO, is valuable, and useful and good.

Kara Goldin 42:10
Right, I totally agree. My, my dad long, crazy story, but my dad ultimately retired in his 60s. And he was so excited, he was gonna play golf every single day. And that lasted for about a week. And then when he figured out as none of his friends either didn’t play golf, or they couldn’t play golf, because they were working. And so then he spent, I don’t know, it probably took them two months to say that was really stupid, that I, that I retired, and he kept saying, don’t, don’t ever stop working. That doesn’t mean that you have to work as hard. But always be doing something always be thinking about always be, you know, doing something, even if it’s nonprofit work that you care about, that you feel like has impact. You don’t have to be leading that charge for that your whole life. But he had this big feeling about that, as well. But he had made that mistake and, and just drilled that and all of our heads are till the day that he passed away. So definitely, but

Shawn Nelson 43:15
retirement was it not a retirement was not a real thing. It was instituted by a German chancellor who wanted a chance to lead not and the older guys weren’t stepping down. And so he found a way through their version of the Senate to make it mandatory. And now you know, retirement became a thing. But there’s nothing wrong with being productive, I think until the end of your days, no matter how you choose to do that. And I like what you said it could be less, but it doesn’t have to be everything.

Kara Goldin 43:42
So if there’s one message that maybe it’s one chapter, or one message that you want to leave the audience with, maybe an important takeaway, obviously, you broke this into 25 chapters, lots of different incredible lessons but what’s the one message that you want people to walk away from this interview thinking about before they go and get your book and and learn a lot more about Shawn and and Lovesac but also, you know, just again about life, I think is is what I really took away from the book

Shawn Nelson 44:21
so hard I mean, you know, these 25 Shawn isms. Each one is like a little child to me and I love to unpack them in the book and on the pod. i They mean a lot to me pick one. To wrap up with this idea. It was one of those moments where I really thought it was after the bankruptcy and we had to start over and it was embarrassing. I just want a million dollars on TV and now like my company’s in chapter 11 is like, the most humiliating thing in my life. And really, I probably should have left and like walked away and started something else or I don’t know. And I was asking my parents for advice, and my mom who’s sturdy, and not any kind of real entrepreneur or anything like that, you know, she was a ballet teacher. But I was asking them for advice. And after hearing all my plight and all my embarrassment and what my choices were, and the difficulties that were ahead through this chapter, 11 rework that would take years to really work all the way through. She kind of stood up and walked away and said, Well, you can quit, or keep going. And listen, that’s it, that like, everything comes down to that decision, even waking up in the morning. You can quit or you can keep going. And I made the decision to keep going, and I’m really glad I did. And I could not have known that at the time, I could not have known how it was going to work out that uncertainty back to embracing that uncertainty. But I could have quit. And by the way, I would still be alive. And I would still hopefully have a family, I’d still be doing things. But I chose to keep going. And so I think coming to terms with the simplicity of that, quit, or keep going. There is no in between. I

Kara Goldin 46:22
love that advice. It’s yeah, it’s it’s so simple, yet so powerful. Yeah.

Shawn Nelson 46:28
So yeah, thanks. Thanks for letting me unpack these. It’s been a lot of fun and, and I would love you know, they’re I think there’s a lot of value in them. Again, taking no profit from any of it. So definitely. For those listening, check out the book, all those proceeds are donated, really proud of that. Check out the pod. Let me save you 25 years where like geniuses like Tara, get to go deep with me on these topics. And it’s been a lot of fun to put all that out there. Super

Kara Goldin 46:59
fun. So well. Sean, thanks again. And thanks, everyone, for listening. We’ll have all the info in the show notes and definitely pick up a copy. Let me save you 25 years by Shawn Nelson. So thanks again, Shawn. Thank you. Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would, please give us a review. And feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin. I would love to hear from you too, so feel free to DM me. And if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book undaunted, where I share more about my journey including founding and building hint. We are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening and good bye for now.