Shae Hong: Founder & CEO of Made by Gather

Episode 778

On today’s episode, Kara welcomes Shae Hong, Founder and CEO of Made by Gather — the design-driven company behind some of America’s fastest-growing home and kitchenware brands, including Beautiful by Drew Barrymore and bella.
At just 25, Shae launched Made by Gather with a vision to reimagine the kitchen as a space for joy, creativity, and connection — not just utility. Two decades later, he’s built a $5B powerhouse that's redefining what affordable, high-performance design can look like. In an era where many chased DTC trends, Shae bet on strong retail partnerships — and that contrarian strategy paid off in a big way.
Today, Made by Gather ships 15 million units annually across major retailers like Walmart, Target, Macy’s, and Amazon. With proprietary innovations like TurboCrisp™ and EverGood™ nonstick, and a sharp eye for product storytelling, the company continues to lead in a competitive category — even outpacing industry growth by more than 50% this past year alone.
In this episode, Shae shares his journey from startup founder to scaling a household name, how he balances creativity with performance, and why connection — not just commerce — is at the heart of everything he builds. It’s a conversation full of smart lessons on leadership, brand building, and staying grounded while thinking big.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be we just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out, knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control. Control, control. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really, some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Kara Goldin show today, I’m super excited to interview my next guest. I’m joined by Shae Hong, who is the visionary founder and CEO of made by gather. This is a company behind beloved kitchenware brands, including Beautiful by Drew Barrymore and Bella, now found in homes across America. Shae’s story is incredible and remarkable. He launched Made by Gather at just 25 years old. So if there’s any 25 year olds out there, there’s hope for you looking and listening to Shae’s story here, and while many were chasing direct to consumer hype, he bet big on some of these retail partnerships. I cannot wait to dig into how he was able to do that and build a 5 billion plus powerhouse brand redefining what design innovation, accessibility looks like in the Home and Kitchen category. So also turbo crisp and fits anywhere are just a couple of the trademarks under Shae’s company. And I cannot wait to see how and really telling us how to build and how he’s been able to scale Made by Gather into the company that it is today. So welcome, Shae. Thank you so much for coming on and really excited to

Shae Hong 2:15
meet you. Yeah, thanks for having me. Excited to be on Absolutely.

Kara Goldin 2:20
So how would you describe the brand made by gather? And let’s start there. Like how would you

Shae Hong 2:27
describe it? Made by Gather is really a parent company, and we call it the brand behind the brands. So Made by Gather is the brand and the parent company behind the brand beautiful by Drew Barrymore and the brand Bella, which are two of America’s fastest growing kitchenware brands, which we’re very excited about,

Kara Goldin 2:48
very, very cool. And you started this company at 25 just last year. No, I’m just kidding, right? You’ve had a few years to to incubate this company and grow it to what it is today. But what was the original vision, and how has that evolved over the last couple decades?

Shae Hong 3:10
Yeah, the, you know, the original vision was, was really simple. I was just a kid, you know, I was 25 this was my third startup, so I had failed twice, which I think was really important to me getting here. Learned, learned a lot of lessons through those failures. But the idea, original idea for made by gather, was really just as a kid. I was 25 and, you know, you kind of think that, you know, everything, and I was looking at kitchen products that were in the market, and, you know, most of them were all just the same. And they were, they were very kind of, they laughed design. They lacked anything that as a, as a, I’ve always been very into design and fashion. So anybody that cared about design would look at these products and just say, like, why do they have to look this way? So when I got into the business, it was the idea was just simply like, I’m gonna design really cool kitchenware products that don’t look like everyone else, because, for the most part, like everybody’s products look the same. It’s actually still that way today. Like, if you walk the floor at Walmart or Target, or even a Best Buy, like, everything kind of looks the same. It’s black and stainless. It has kind of a commercial feel to it, very masculine, to be honest. And and, yeah, so I just so the original idea was to just design better products, and I just started with a couple products. And you know, what’s crazy over 22 years is that the mission hasn’t really changed, but I learned so much along the way about how to deliver that at scale and do it successfully. So you know, really the first 16 years, I designed a lot of product. When I say a lot of product, I mean we launched 100 to 200 New Items a year. In some years, 400 new items and but they were just items, like they were products. I call it products with a name on them, so they weren’t necessarily a brand, or they didn’t have that emotional connection. And what I learned through that experience is that in order to really deliver to the consumer something that kind of hits on all fronts that makes them loyalists and diehards of your brand. You have to not only deliver on the design of the product, but you also have to deliver on that brand experience, the emotional connection, the content, the story, like all those pieces together. So yeah, so it’s been a 22 year journey to put all those pieces together, and have really seen those pieces come together in the last four to five years.

Kara Goldin 5:49
It’s incredible. So you built this company during a time when D to Z was booming, I was doing a little bit of research, and then you doubled down on retail and really allowing other people’s brands to flourish, and you were helping people, whether it was, I guess, private label products, but then also people like Drew Barrymore, who wanted to launch her own brand. So can you talk to me a little bit about why you decided not to have your own brand initially and just instead work with other brands and retail? I guess?

Shae Hong 6:31
Yeah, I think, look, it was, it was what we were really good at, and as it’s really tempting, I think, as an entrepreneur, to see trends happen in the market, and to just jump in without really being thoughtful about what it might take or whether or not you have the skill set on your team, or you have the infrastructure to support it, or you have a capital structure to support it. So as DTC, you know, in kind of 2018 2019 really started to take off. We just knew that it wasn’t at the core who we were yet and and so we just really leaned into what we were really good at, which is we had great relationships with some of the biggest retailers in the world, and we were really great at designing and making product. And at that time, in 2018 2019 I had bought out my partner, and had just started to really transform, Made by Gather and move to the direction of creating our own brands. That’s where the birth of beautiful came from, and the relaunch of Bella. But it was really just about trusting what we were really good at and knowing that we could get to the consumer, probably with more scale through these partnerships at retail, and if we could get them to buy in to what we believed in, and show them the results of what we were doing, which is We really brought the same creativity and the same richness and content that DTC was doing direct with consumer, but we brought it to retail, and it just once it hit, it just started going and kept going, you know. So it was, it was a it was, you know, part partially knowing what you don’t know. We weren’t experts to DTC, and we already had a fairly big business, and so it’s like, do you risk your whole business that’s already successful by trying something that you don’t have the skill set to do yet, and then just leaning into what we knew, but also evolving with the way that the consumer was? You know, consumer was reacting to content and marketing and brands and emotional connection across the board.

Kara Goldin 8:41
So how do you decide when to launch a new brand and even a new category within within that brand? How does that come about?

Shae Hong 8:50
Well, it’s changed over the years. So the the the strategy behind beautiful which we created before we met Drew was that we really identified a white space in the market, of a lack of a brand and kitchen that had emotional connection with the female consumer. So when we looked at the category, and we looked at the black and Deckers and the Hamilton Beach and the Oster and all these brands that dominated the shelf, just none of them had any emotional connection with the consumer at Mass and we were really focused on, how do we bring this to mass, to the mass market? So for that brand, we identified this white space. We made a big bet. We looked for a partner. We found drew it was, it was like love at first sight. She and I just clicked and connected, and we were just off to the races together and developed something really special. So for that brand that that was around identifying a very big white space, and then, as we’ve launched other brands, like, for example, the relaunch of Bella, it was around a different type of white space, a white space around. Functionality, and that was the the idea behind fits anywhere that through covid and the trends that were happening then in the kitchen, people had just amassed all these kitchen products, and they just had so much stuff on their counters. And, you know, the trend of, you know, minimalist, minimalistic, the idea of minimalism. You think about the home edit. You think about kind of all these things that were going on around, kind of creating space in your home, literally, that that birthday idea for fits anywhere and and so that that was really the idea behind the launch of Bella. So as we’ve grown and our team has grown. One of the things that we’ve we’ve really invested in is insights with the consumer and data analytics. And that’s now, that is kind of the next iteration of the next brand we’re going to launch, which is coming soon, where it’s been really driven by the combination of insights and analytics coupled with innovation. So it’s been a little bit different along the way, depending on the timing.

Kara Goldin 11:06
So you’ve said that design is a competitive differentiator, competitive moat. I think you use the term. So what does that mean in practice? And how do you scale that? Because I think that the one thing that I noticed about your brand too, that is really awesome and unique is the different colors that you’re using. And, yeah, you know. And a lot of people don’t necessarily think that color is is maybe part of design, but I think that it’s clear that you view it as a component,

Shae Hong 11:40
yeah, you know, it started with our you know, in our culture as a company, design is really table stakes. And so as we’ve built the team over the last five or seven years, we’ve really made sure to invest in a culture that design is just table stakes, and that’s different than our competitors, and so as a result, when we’re designing product, that, because that’s part of who we are, the design starts to across the board. And it was, it was, to be honest, it was really hard to do because it first had to start with a leader of that area. So we have this incredible chief product officer, and she’s, she came from a much different background in fashion, but she really brought the vision that I had for chic, design focused products, and she really brought that to a scalable model for kitchen appliances and kitchenware, where the entire team understood it and could replicate it, because it’s very easy to fall back into what everybody else is doing, especially as you’re growing quickly and you’re, you know, you’re trying to turn out product and scaling. So it’s, it started with a with the table stakes, that design was the lead, you know, for us, it was really important, and then putting the right people in place to make sure that we could execute that.

Kara Goldin 12:58
That’s awesome. So many products you launch include the proprietary technology and the trademarks of turbo crisp and ever good. How did you how did that all come about with you know, that’s that’s sort of a next level in products that I guess many people, I’m sure, that wasn’t easy to do, but you were able to do that and and I think it’s pretty interesting.

Shae Hong 13:28
Well, you know, to me, product is always first, right? So you have to have product that consumers get excited about, and when they see it, there’s a reason to buy. Then you have to have great design, great brand, great experience, content, all those things. So being somebody that’s always been a product person, product has always been first in this category. Innovation is really important. Because the reality is is like everybody has what they need for the most part, in their kitchen. So in order to get them excited about buying something new, there has to be something that’s better than what they already have. And so that’s this art of marrying cheek design with innovation that gets people’s attention. And innovation always doesn’t need to be like something that didn’t exist two years ago. You know, innovation can be, you know, Turbo crisp is, is really just an innovative tray inside of our air fryers that makes the air circulate faster, which cooks faster, right? It’s, it’s not highly complicated, but it really works so that, that that’s kind of a simple innovation. We also look at color. You mentioned color like color is innovation for us, because color in kitchen had, historically had been kind of kitschy and cheesy. You know? It was like bright, it was bold, it was it was a certain demographic that loved that part of the product design, the color aspect of it. Yeah, and, and this is where to be honest, this is like, one of Drew’s secret sauces, is she has this unbelievable ability to create colors that are that are that are chic and very muted, so they’re not bold, they’re they kind of, they kind of just work in the environment. And so if you look at especially with beautiful if you look at some of the colors that we make, they’re, they’re beautiful colors, but they’re not bold. They’re they’re they’re more muted. They have a tone to them that allows them to fit in a lot of different kitchen designs. And I think that’s really caught on with consumers, like they love it. She also has created palettes that all work with each other. So even though we’ve got this wide range of colors, we actually do studies where we put them together to make sure that they they work, they have like an undertone that matches across the board. So, so yeah. So innovation comes in a lot of different ways, but I really believe you have to be innovating to to get the consumer’s attention.

Kara Goldin 16:07
So the overall small appliance industry has been relatively flat. Your company has grown 50% year over year. I think I have that stat right. So how do you? How do you do that? I think any business owner would love that, especially when you hear that the that the industry as a whole is is fairly flat. How do you? How do you grow beyond creating, you know, the next new toaster, or or whatever it is. I mean, not that doesn’t get you to grow at the rate that you’ve done, but you’ve been able to do it over and over again. I’d love to hear what your thoughts are.

Shae Hong 16:50
Yeah, so we lean a lot. We have as an organization and as a leadership team. We have really built expertise around strategy planning. And so we spend a lot of time, and this is, I think, my advice to most entrepreneurs that I meet that are earlier in their trajectory. This usually is the first advice I give them, because I wish I would have gotten this advice like 15 years ago. But strategy planning is really important. It’s really important to continue to drive growth, because the point of strategy planning is to always kind of be looking around the corner to what’s next and making sure that you have both the opportunities in front of you as well as you’re building the infrastructure and the support system to fuel those opportunities along the way. So so I would say that most of it comes through really good strategy planning. We’re also an extremely, you know, it’s a very entrepreneurial culture. So, like everybody, is extremely aggressive about new product development and new ideas and just continuing to push the envelope. And, you know, we’re in a category where, you know, if you look at our team, and I keep mentioning the team, because, to be honest, it’s really all about the people that make this work and allow us to scale. Our team just looks very different than the industry. And I think that’s part of what makes us special, is that we have a lot of different team members from different backgrounds that have different talents, that have brought them to the kitchen business, and we all have bonded under one type of culture, and then it allows us to to combine strategy, planning with our culture, with innovation, with design, and that that continues to keep the growth coming

Kara Goldin 18:38
and so Interesting. Do you tend to bring in people who come from the industry, or do you tend to bring in people who are coming from different industries and maybe are creating other types of products?

Shae Hong 18:53
Yeah, that’s a good question. So I am we tend to bring in people that fit our culture, so that that that is a first priority when we’re interviewing somebody that is interested in joining me by gather like they have to be a culture fit first, like that’s that’s most important. And we’ve created what we call our house. It’s literally on the screen next to me, but it’s like our culture map of what we stand for and and the principles that we operate by every day and so. So finding the right culture fit is is most important. You know, we, to be honest, we don’t get hung up on trying to find talent that is from our industry, because, to be honest, like the industry has been doing it the same way for so long that we’ve gotten so many big unlocks from talent that just come in and they just, they have no preconceived notions of how things are supposed to be done, and so they just come in with these great ideas. And you know, part of our culture is being growth minded. When you’re growth minded and somebody comes with an idea that sounds a little crazy at first, like you’re open to it, you vet it, you check it out, and then there’s a lot of moments where you’re like, Oh, wow. The. That is amazing. Like, we’re going to do that, you know, like, that could really work. So, yeah, so it’s, it’s really culture fit, and then, and then it’s not really industry specific. It’s, to be honest, it’s almost better that you come from a different industry, because we love to learn from, from new members on our team.

Kara Goldin 20:17
So kitchen is, I mean, correct me if I’m wrong. I mean, that’s really been kind of your bread and butter, right? And creating those products, I also saw with Drew’s line in particular, beautiful that it’s there is some home as well. So would you go into other categories? Or do you think that I’m I’m curious. Do you think that kitchen is, is really where the focus needs to be? I mean, how do you think about that?

Shae Hong 20:53
Yeah, we so we’ve thought about it a couple different ways. In the kitchen in particular, we’ve expanded into a lot of categories that we now do on our own. So we’ve had category expansion. So we started in kitchen, electrics, which is appliances. We added cookware, which is now a big business for us. We now do tools and gadgets, which is another big business for us. So we’ve expanded product categories within the kitchen when we’re creating brand identity and brand strategy. And this was something that drew and I really believed in and stayed true to from the start, when we created the brand identity for beautiful we really wanted it to live outside of the kitchen like we wanted it to be a true lifestyle brand that if you saw it on a outdoor furniture or on a mattress or on a piece of luggage, like you wouldn’t be surprised that it’s there. And so that was in the DNA of the strategy early on. And then as we started to develop this, this relationship with the customer that was just so loyal and so connected, we realized, okay, this formula of elevated design innovation at affordable price points, like can apply to a lot of different categories in home, and it allowed us to expand, and we did it through partnerships with other manufacturers that are experts in those categories, but still led through the design process that Drew and I created from the start. So so it just depends on whether it’s home outside of the kitchen or expansion within kitchen.

Kara Goldin 22:26
So interesting. So when you think about this consumer today, and maybe you know different than than two decades ago, are they changing a lot, is it? Is it? What do you see is like the biggest shift, I guess, for for the future, if you had a crystal ball,

Shae Hong 22:50
you know, they’re they’re changing a lot. I think that there is so much more like when we look at our opportunity, like there’s so much more room to grow with design and innovation. And the when you look at the total market size, there’s just, there’s just massive. It’s a, I think it’s an eight or $9 billion market. So we have, we have a lot of room to grow there, but they’re becoming much smarter, and they have access to, I mean, it’s amazing how much consumers will check their phone in store before they buy, to get reviews, to check, you know, comparisons of product to check price like it’s truly like the and this is another reason why selling to the Walmarts and the Amazons, of the targets of the world, has been so important in Costco is because we truly live, I think, in a in a world where an omni experience is the reality, right? So, you could be walking in a Walmart, see a product, but end up buying it from Walmart on your phone, you know. Or you could be walking in target and see a product and looking at the price on Amazon and deciding to buy it at Target in the store because of price competitiveness. So it’s, it’s that part is is really changing the landscape, I think for brands, is this multi, you know, the multi channel experience for consumers, and then, you know, reviews are really important, right? Consumers, consumers really tell you whether they believe and they love your brand or they don’t, and and I think that we as like, I know that I do. I know that my wife does like when we’re looking at products to buy, like we pay attention to reviews and what people say about the product. So, so I think that part is is changing, and now, you know, look, AI is throwing a whole nother element in it, because there’s a different level of research or insights that you could get if you’re using chat GBT to research a product. So yeah, I think it’s evolving and changing fast.

Kara Goldin 24:52
So interesting. So when you think back on any product designs that you’ve created that you thought. Thought, this is going to be amazing, but maybe it didn’t sell as fast. Is are there any that kind of come to mind? I remember the founder. I asked him this question of Bowlin branch was on, and he he thought that every bed had to have a bed skirt on it and and so he went to town on getting all kinds of bed skirts. And he said, I think I still have the original bed skirts that I ordered from that first run, because it ends up that not a lot of people change their bed skirt if they even have a bed skirt. And he said that he still has plenty of bed skirts. But are there any that did not sell as many as he thought, or as many as you thought we’re gonna do? Yeah.

Shae Hong 25:50
I mean, we’ve had, we’ve had a couple, I would say that, you know, in in call it like 2016 17. We launched a product that integrated kind of color in a way, color and design in a way that we thought was so disruptive to the space, and we launched it with target. It was like a perfect, you know, perfect place for us to launch at, just because they’re known for, you know, being Tarjay and the design and everything there. And literally, when you put it on shelf next to the competitors, the price competitiveness and the design, to me, seem like a no brainer. Like, this is a home run, you know, like, this is next to a Black and Decker black plastic toaster, and it’s the same price, and this is, you know, Chrome and red, or Chrome and turquoise, a beautiful design, like chic gold, etc. It didn’t work. It didn’t work. And I think it was just the timing the consumer that we were targeting, the millennials were still a little bit too young. They really weren’t shopping up for kitchen products the color at the time. You know, it just it wasn’t chic, like what we’ve done today with beautiful so that was, like, one example where we thought for sure we had a home run, and, you know, it didn’t work out that way. What’s interesting on the flip side, and this is part of, I think, what makes Drew and I such a powerful partnership, is that she comes with ideas that if I leaned on my experience, I would never try, but I really trust her instincts. And so we do it, and we are blown away, like we are blown away by by the results. So kind of the opposite what you’re saying, like, we’ll try things where we have maybe low expectations, and then, you know, we sell out in 36 hours, and we’re like, okay, that’s a winner. So we did, like when we launched beautiful. We launched with sage green, which was all Drew. She didn’t want to launch with white, black, you know, anything neutral. She wanted sage green. And I think we sold out of everything in 72 hours. And there was a lot of product.

Kara Goldin 27:55
Yeah. Wow. So interesting. So how do you measure success of a product. I mean, you know, obviously selling out is great, but then you also feel like you’re missing an opportunity to actually sell more, right, because you didn’t create as much. So there’s always this double edged sword. But how do you determine whether or not a launch of a new product is successful. Yeah.

Shae Hong 28:25
I mean, look, I would always take the sell out like it’s, I would call it a high class problem, right? Just because it knows that you have a hit and you can catch up at some point, true, you’ll leave dollars on the table. And you know, as we get, as we evolve and get better, what we do, we try to forecast better and better so that we miss less opportunity? But you know, at the end of the day, the metric that we really stay on top of, and it’s really important to us, is our POS at retail, and that is really, you know, that really shows how much the customer is buying. So it’s just really about being productive on a on an on a regular, consistent basis. And I think that is something that a lot of the the younger DTC companies that come into retail, and any brand that comes into retail that hasn’t been there, doesn’t fully understand is that there is a productivity expectation. You know, you’re basically you own some real estate in a place where every real estate has to generate a certain amount of dollars, and you have to, you have to generate more than what they expect to stay there and and if you do, it means the customer is buying your product, and they love it. And so we stay really close to POS metrics. That’s really how we determine the success of a product. Interesting?

Kara Goldin 29:41
Yeah, I would add to that, if, if there’s a new CMO, that’s all that, actually, that throws everything out the window, right, right? Or, or, we have

Shae Hong 29:55
a phrase for that. It’s called where the wind blows. You know, the wind, the wind. Can change at a retail establishment.

Kara Goldin 30:03
I’ve, yeah, I’ve said that to to founders in the past, and we hint has had many stories like that, where you can be just killin it and above and beyond, and then all of a sudden, new leadership change, and it’s a goal post. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So thinking back on those early days when you were starting your company and obviously you had had or Obviously not, obviously you had mentioned that you had a couple of challenging times before that, I actually think that those challenging times make better leaders, right? It’s not all pretty, and I think that there’s probably things that you’ve learned today, two decades later, that maybe you would tell yourself, but what? What do you think you’ve learned having a successful startup as as you have, or successful company, I guess you’ve grown it into that that you wish you would have, like known back then when you were starting this company. Yeah.

Shae Hong 31:13
I mean, I think that at this point in my career, when I look back at the early entrepreneur that I was, I’m, you know, it’s hard to say that I would, I would ask to know anything different, because, you know, I, I was driven by a lot of fear early on, feel fear of failure after you fail twice, like you’re definitely scared of failing a third time, and so so fear and kind of always running From the idea that things may not work out can fuel you to work really, really hard and outwork everybody around you. And so, you know, I look, I think when I, when I, and I give this advice to my kids, like you have to really get comfortable embracing change. And I think as an entrepreneur, that’s something that you don’t realize, like you are going to get hit with so many unexpected things that you just couldn’t believe could have ever happened. I may still say that 22 years in, you know, with 250 team members, and we still, every week, something happens, and you’re like, oh my god, I cannot believe that just happened, you know. So, yeah, so I think, I think, I think embracing, embracing change, and being able to to actually respond positively to it, like, instead of getting beat down by it, like, getting invigorated by the fact that, like, okay, like something changed on me, like, I’m gonna figure out how to make it work and make it work better. I think the the second thing is, is really to start to trust your timing. You know, I what I think is really hard, and I know I battled with this for the first probably 10 or so years of my career. As you compare yourself a lot to other entrepreneurs, founders, and you know, the the the your feed is just full of stories. They sold for this, and they sold for that, and they started two, three years ago, and it’s already worth that. And like, if I let that determine my success, I probably wouldn’t be here right now, because not many of them make it to 22 years. But I’ve just learned to really trust my timing of where I’m going and the bigger the bigger picture. And so I think if I could look back at my younger self to be like, hey, just trust your timing. Don’t, don’t compare yourself to anybody, it probably would have made things a little bit easier to operate

Kara Goldin 33:37
than they were. Yeah, no, I think that that is totally valid. So well, Shae, thank you so much for joining today. Your journey from starting and growing Made by Gather to the company that it is today over 5 billion, and I guess in in value. So, yeah, total sales. So such an inspiring example of vision grit and putting joy at the center of everything. Really, really incredible work all the way around. And I’m excited to see what happens next. But made by gather.com also Bella, right? It’s the online store so, and then obviously, Drew Barrymore and beautiful by Drew Barrymore. So definitely, everybody check it out on social as well, and don’t forget to share this episode. Really, really appreciate meeting you and getting to know you a little bit more. And like I said, best of luck with everything. Yeah.

Shae Hong 34:44
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on and it was really fun.

Kara Goldin 34:48
Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit. And of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single. Full Episode of our podcast, just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms. At Kara Goldin, I would love to hear from you too. So feel free to DM me, and if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book, undaunted, where I share more about my journey, including founding and building. Hint, we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening, and goodbye for now.

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