Melinda Maria Spigel: Founder & Chief Creative Officer of Melinda Maria

Episode 772

On today’s episode, Kara welcomes Melinda Maria Spigel, Founder and Chief Creative Officer of Melinda Maria Jewelry — the celeb-adored brand redefining accessible luxury for the modern woman.
Melinda’s journey is anything but ordinary. She started out selling jewelry at Starbucks and even entered game shows to fund her first production runs. What began as pure hustle has evolved into a $30M+ brand worn by icons including Michelle Obama, Julia Roberts, and Taylor Swift. Through creativity, resilience, and a deep connection with her audience, Melinda turned her handmade beginnings into one of the most recognizable digitally native jewelry brands in the world.
In this episode, she shares how she built her business from scratch, what it really takes to stay relevant in a fast-changing digital landscape, and how storytelling and authenticity built a loyal following that still fuels the brand today. From her first sale to her first celebrity moment, Melinda’s story is a masterclass in grit, creativity, and finding your sparkle — on your own terms.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up, that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be you. Just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out, knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control. Control, control. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really, some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi everyone and welcome back to the Kara Goldin show today, I’m joined by Melinda Maria Spigel, who is the founder and chief creative officer of Melinda Maria jewelry at the celeb loved la based jewelry brand that’s made luxury feel both elevated and accessible, and her story is the definition of grit and creativity. She started her brand from scratch, literally selling her first pieces at Starbucks and even entering game shows to fund her early production runs. I cannot wait to hear more about that. Fast forward to today. Her namesake brand is a multi, multi million dollar powerhouse adored by everyone from Michelle Obama to Julia Roberts to Taylor Swift and Selena Gomez. Melinda’s journey is how she built everything herself, no shortcuts, no overnight success. Love, love, love, everything about it. I can’t wait to dive into much, much more and see how a side hustle can turn into a luxury household name that is a must for anyone looking for incredible, reasonably priced jewelry. So, so nice to meet you. Melinda. Such a huge fan. Melinda Maria, I should say, thank you.

Melinda Maria Spigel 2:06
Oh, I I’m such a huge fan of the show, so I was giddy when my publicist called and said you wanted me on. So I’m very honored.

Kara Goldin 2:15
So, so excited. So tell us about the Well, first of all, how would you define Melinda Maria jewelry, for someone who’s like, Oh, I’m not familiar with it. What is it?

Melinda Maria Spigel 2:26
Oh, my gosh. Well, we’re really experts in the luxury space, but it’s accessible and it feels luxurious, but it doesn’t hurt the bank. You know, we love the look of, I loved the look of fine jewelry, you know, really, at a really young age. And I didn’t grow up with money, so I didn’t really see it in my house. And, you know, like when I started the company, I was like, Okay, I want to wear a diamond tennis necklace. And I thought it was really unfair that I couldn’t. So we really wanted, I really wanted to set out to be this company that, you know, people can get these looks that were traditionally from these luxury houses that felt snobby, that were snobby, that were, you know, just unattainable, and it just felt unfair to me. So I said, I want to, I want to, you know, level this playing field, and I want to wear something that looks expensive, too, but have it be accessible to everybody.

Kara Goldin 3:24
So I read that you started inside of Starbucks. Can you tell the backstory? I always love hearing the founder backstory. Yeah,

Melinda Maria Spigel 3:34
yeah. I love this backstory. Is great. So, yeah, I moved to LA. Just drove down here with no money, no connections, no college degree. I had made jewelry since I was eight, and I was just always obsessed with designing and jewelry, and when I had a bunch of different side jobs, and all the while making jewelry and just sort of selling it to people that I, you know, ran into at work or were friends, and then I really thought to myself, like, I really want to make this a business, but, like, again, no money, no connections, no office, no store. And at the time, I, you know, a pretty resourceful person, very scrappy. And so at the time, Starbucks was popping up everywhere, and it was sort of a thing to even, like, carry a Starbucks cup. Felt like luxurious, you know, because it was, like a higher nobody was, you know, people weren’t buying expensive coffee until Starbucks came around. So and people were hanging at Starbucks. So I went to all the Starbucks around Los Angeles, and I sat and got my drink, or SAT and got made jewelry, where people got their drinks. Because I was like, Okay, this is like a flow of people. There’s lines, like, like, out the door. And I started slowly. I would just feel like, set my jewelry off to the side. You know, they people would side it be like, What are you making? I’m like, Oh, I make jewelry. And do you sell it? Yeah, how much is that? $48 can I buy it now? Sure. So. Like, I was just like, I mean, like, I think 111, day. I think. I sold like, $2,800 or $3,000 something like that, worth, worth of jewelry. But I had many offices around town. I was at Main Street. I was in Beverly Hills. I was in Venice. I was at multi, multi channel, you know, stores at Starbucks. I had the first shop, and shops were really at Starbucks. But you know, then, you know, I was hand making everything then, and that’s when I realized, like, with this diamond look, I was like, Okay, I really want to expand my palette of jewelry and the way it’s made. And so I found a manufacturer. I set out to find manufacturers that were making fine jewelry. And I said, I want to do this exactly how you’re making this, but I want to make it in brass and gold over it, and the highest quality simulated diamond you can possibly find. And so I was really one of the first people that put, like, you know, CZs and fashion jewelry on the red carpet in Hollywood, like at that time, you know, this was 20 years ago when I started people were only wearing diamonds, and like the Neil lanes and the big diamond looks and so slowly but surely, you know, after a lot of no’s and a lot of, you know, shut doors on me, I sort of became a name in Hollywood with these stylists as a go to persons to have these really gorgeous, like diamond looks and felt and looked exactly like the real thing and photograph like it. And so that celebrity part was really fun. And then, you know, and then I decided to do direct to consumer, you know, this was 2000 you know, I’d gotten quite a few stores at the time. I got Nordstrom and all the big box brands and things like that. And a few years in, I realized, after becoming really a wholesale brand, that I sort of lost my way to speak to the customer about the brand. And it was very frustrating, because I would place an ad and, you know, in these magazines or in these, like catalogs with these department stores, and I get the final print, and I’m like, this is this is not how my brand should be spoken about. This is not how we wear it. This is not because we’re really about like wearing it. I mean, look, I’m wearing 17 necklaces and a hat and a T shirt and jeans, like we’re really about like wearing it in everyday feeling like an everyday luxury brand. And so I got frustrated. I decided to stop most of wholesale, which meant I had to, you know, pair my team down to very few people. This was in 2016 and I was like, I want to turn the camera myself. I want to really focus on direct to consumer, because the brand stickiness of like, of like, telling our story was getting lost. So, you know, that was a really big pivot in my brand, and really, like, following my instincts, because I was like, This is not what I set out to do. I lost that, like, feeling of those that customer and those following back at Starbucks, and, you know, because I slowly had built, like, this big roster of women that were coming to me to buy, and I miss talking to them. So cut to like, 2018 we started to pour a little money on paid advertising, and it really took off. 2019 I really started talking to the camera, and really became, like, the brand, face of the brand. And then 2020 hit, and we were like, primed and ready for people being, like, stuck on their phones and consuming content, and everyone wanted to feel good. So we were, you know, we were like that lipstick luxury that people say, like that little piece that, you know, 4858 78 $198 that made you feel good. And so we grew 500% in covid. And it was a wild ride, because, you know, logistically and operationally it was crazy, but sales, it was amazing. But you know, to look back at like that journey of following my instincts of, okay, going to Starbucks, or starting this company, or, you know, being the face of the brand, or stopping wholesale and focusing on DTC, that was really risky. I mean, I was turning down, you know, quarter of a million dollar POS to Nordstrom and Bloomingdale’s. People thought it was crazy, but that was sort of and then here we are today. You know, we’re we’re kicking we’re doing great. We’ve grown since covid. I think we’ve had like a 30 to 35 to 40% year, year over year growth.

Kara Goldin 9:26
That’s incredible. So the game show story, how did that happen? And how did you decide to use the winnings to fund your brand?

Melinda Maria Spigel 9:35
Yes, oh my god, I completely skipped that step. So when I between making the jewelry at Starbucks and realizing, okay, I want to make this a brand, I had to quit my other jobs, and I still couldn’t afford it. So being resourceful and scrappy and living Los Angeles, I’m like, Oh, my God, all these game shows are here. And I looked. Up in the Yellow Pages and found the Hollywood Squares, and the price is right. And this other like dodgeball game show. And I think I probably won over, like $100,000 worth of cash and prizes. And then I won a convertible Miata and a diamond watch and a stair master and all these things. So I sold all of it, and that was like the seed money in order for me to start to stop all the other side hustles.

Kara Goldin 10:25
So wait, what was the

Melinda Maria Spigel 10:26
game show Hollywood Squares? Price is Right. And then there was, like a dodgeball game show on the Game Show Network.

Kara Goldin 10:33
Wait, you were on multiple game shows. Money.

Melinda Maria Spigel 10:38
Girl, you can’t fund a company just on Hollywood Squares alone.

Kara Goldin 10:44
Oh my gosh. I wonder how many, I wonder how many entrepreneurs have been on multiple game shows. This is wild. I love it.

Melinda Maria Spigel 10:53
Many I feel like I’ve, I’ve done quite a few, you know, interviews and podcasts and things like that. And I know I nobody hears about that, but maybe I’m going to spark a whole entrepreneurial revolution of seed money funding through game shows come to LA. I

Kara Goldin 11:10
love it. So you start in 2016 you decide to make this big shift into direct to consumer. Was, how did you figure out where to invest?

Melinda Maria Spigel 11:24
Oh my gosh, that came throughout the years. I mean, I think, you know, I’ve always feel like confidence is something you find like you it’s something like you find along the way. And, you know, I feel like in in entrepreneurship, you’re not quite confident usually, about big decisions and where, where to invest, and I think that came along with the journey of following my instincts. But think at the time, it was like I really wanted to find a manufacturer that understood my vision of making super, super high quality jewelry for an affordable price. So at first, first thing, first was I wanted to get that down. So I really invested in, like, finding a manufacturer sampling process, because if you don’t have a good product, then you’re you’re dead. It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who’s backing it, who’s wearing it, what you’re saying about it, like that’s, that is this super sticking point. So I would say I first invested in that manufacturing and finding the right partner, and then people, yeah, and then it’s really important to invest in good people. I would rather overpay somebody that’s an incredible employee than, you know, having a million people and having them work really

Kara Goldin 12:44
hard, yeah, definitely. So when was the moment you realized, okay, this is working. I saw it in your face when you got to that point with direct to consumer, and you know, you’re making really, really courageous, somewhat crazy decisions that I’m sure you stayed up late at night thinking, you know, I just turned away. It’s half million dollar Po, and that’s hard, right? It’s, it’s tough, but you did it, and was there a moment when you said, Okay, this was the right decision.

Melinda Maria Spigel 13:17
Ooh, like when we change, when we really made the shift from direct consumer will sale, um, you know, it wasn’t a revenue. It wasn’t like a thing of it wasn’t a thing about sales. It was a it was I, I felt like I made the right decision when the feeling, when it felt right of how we’re talking to our customer. I knew that the sales would follow. You know, sometimes you just got to start messy, but you just got to start. And so that felt like a messy pivot for me, and something that I was already very in bed with with wholesale. So that was a that was definitely like an ugly, messy turnaround, but I just started, you know, I feel like perfection kills momentum. And so if you want to, if you want to get it perfect, it just kills the whole momentum of the decision. So, so, yeah, I think, like once it felt good, of how we’re talking to the customer, and felt authentic, then I knew that people would come

Kara Goldin 14:22
so many major names, from Michelle Obama to Taylor Swift wearing your jewelry over time. How did that all come about? And I know people would just die to have to have that right. And I always, you know, tell people it’s like, it’s not even like, you can pay these people to go and and write, try your product or wear it, and so that’s a really, really big deal,

Melinda Maria Spigel 14:53
yeah, um, you know, I just really believed in what we were doing. And at the time. Everyone was wearing super expensive diamonds on the red carpet. And so it was so part of our brand ethos to you know, you don’t have to wear something that’s half a million dollars or $500,000 to feel good. And so I made it my mission, not only to make this affordable look, but to make sure that it had some sort of cultural relevance, of stamp of approval on it. And again, being in Los Angeles, have being resourceful. I was like, I’m in the celebrity capital of the world. And people around the country listen to celebrities, and they like, follow what they wear a lot of times, and they’re like, these trendsetters. And so I just knocked on every door of every stylist in LA, and again, like I got so many no’s, and those stylists today are all using Linda Maria, but it happened, you know, there was one stylist that took a chance on me. It’s always going to be that one person. You know, you don’t have to have all the stylists in LA, you know where or agree to what you’re doing. It just takes one, and then the rest will follow. So it just takes one, yes, and then people will come. So, yeah, I had Petra, this style, big stylist here named Petra, and she was styling Emma Stone at the time. And Emma Stone is, was like, oh my god, she was massive. I mean, she still is so massive. But she started putting my jewelry on Petra, and then on a bunch of other celebrities. And it just sort of, you know, all the other stylists sort of realized, okay, this let me, let me try this out. I don’t have to have a security team. I don’t have to worry about losing it, because they do. And yeah, you know, and again, like they can pull whatever. So they obviously, now they come to me for all sorts of other jewelry, not just like the look of real but, um, but it’s, it’s fun. It’s fun when they wear it, because I know they can pull anything else.

Kara Goldin 16:56
Yeah, I love that. So how did you decide to name the brand after yourself. So I’m sure that was a big decision. Melinda, Maria, but how did you decide to do that?

Melinda Maria Spigel 17:10
You know, it’s funny, like, it’s probably when you started hint water. You have no at the time, I had no idea. Like you said you just wanted to have a drink that was healthy, a healthier option, like, I just wanted to make jewelry that I liked, that it wasn’t out there for myself and like my friends and a few people at Starbucks. And so when I named it, it didn’t feel like a big decision. It felt like I don’t know my name is, you know, it’s Melinda, Maria, two M’s. They kind of go together as a logo. It’s me like, let’s do it. You don’t think it’s kind of gonna come this big thing that you see everywhere. My my entire building on La Brea is all lavender, and it says Melinda, Maria crossed it. So I, you know, I You’re a type of founder, and so am I that that you didn’t start it to sell it, or didn’t start it to make millions and millions of dollars? You started it for the love of the product? Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, it didn’t feel like a big decision at the time.

Kara Goldin 18:06
So you’ve built an incredible, incredibly loyal online community. What’s been key to keeping that authentic connection, right? It’s, I mean, whether it’s through certain platforms, I’m sure there, you speak a little bit differently, maybe, and different platforms that you’re that you’re on, but, but, I mean, you’re talking about jewelry, and you’re talking about how people feel and and obviously you know how they how they look with it, but, and their ability to kind of put different pieces together, because you’re all about layering, and, I mean, it’s just, but you can also wear a single diamond necklace too, I mean, but I’m curious on the community angle, because I think that community today is needed more than ever, and I think it’s fun, right? What you guys have done?

Melinda Maria Spigel 19:02
Yeah, thank you. I mean, I do think, and this is just a brand, you know, some advice of somebody building a brand, I think you build something that feels like you and the right people will come and that, that type of like thought of authenticity, people, people people gravitate towards that like people gravitate if you’re the way you story tell, the way you talk about your brand and and how you treat your customers, because they talk. It creates, it creates, it creates a community. We do various things, like various giving things like we do. I do live at five, and I’ve done it since 2020, I think we’ve done like, I don’t know, 400 of them or something like that. But where we style, we style the, you know, we go on live, and I style the person, and we chit chat and, you know, we we give them the jewelry that I style them with. And when it started, I just. Thought, how can I give back to the community in like, a meaningful way that feels authentic, that that’s easy for us? Because we were like, slammed working, and it turned into this like, Oh my gosh. The way you speak to your community, you know, people come on and they tell their stories, and people are crying, and on the on the side, people are typing like, Oh, I got you, girl, I’m DMing, you. Do you need a hug? Or, you know, if you need a doctor? I know somebody in your area like it’s really fascinating how when you open up the the place for people to connect, whether it be online or lives or in store activations, and the energy that you lead with is the energy that that they bring as well. And so if you’re inclusive, and it’s all like, you know, we’re all in this together, I don’t know, people start to open up and make connections. And it’s really interesting on so many different platforms, how we constantly say, you know, hear people like mm brought me together. Or I call my friend when the drop happens, and we talk about what we’re getting. Or we went on that we met on the live that you were on, and then we became friends because we found that we were in the same area. I mean, we have discord channels where people you know, are talking about mm, and you know how it makes them feel, and it’s really interesting how community plays out in different platforms. I

Kara Goldin 21:29
love that. So when you look back again over your entire journey, what has been the most difficult part of growing this business, you’re a first time founder that is still very involved in the business and but what has been the most like, kind of hairy points along the way that you feel like, I don’t know, maybe you wish someone would have told you, or maybe you don’t feel like Anyone could have told you.

Melinda Maria Spigel 22:00
Yeah, you know, our brand grew. I grew really slowly. I mean, we’re in our 20th year, and I think our growth really just started happening in like 2020, so it was like five years ago because I didn’t have any real money or funding, or anybody really guiding me. I sort of learned everything on the job. And those, those came with, like, really big mistakes, really expensive mistakes, you know, so many times where I just it was all on me. And so I learned I got, I would say, I got my MBA, like, through my company, but there’s so many, God, I can’t point to one thing that was so everything. It’s still hard. Yeah, don’t you think it’s just, I, you know, I get people saying, like, Oh my gosh. You know, you’re, you’ve been in Forbes this so many times, and you’re all the, all the points of that lead to, you know, somebody thinking like you’re such a huge success. First of all, I don’t think like that, and so maybe that’s what keeps me growing. And secondly, you know, I just think I’m still grinding like even this day So, and it’s still, there’s so many hard things. But what I always tell people that you have to start with something that you love, because it’s just too business is just being a founder is just too hard to not be passionate about your product. I’m sure you felt the same way with hint water, that those times where you’re just like on your knees being like, oh my god, are we going to make it? Or was that the right decision? Or, I mean, I had a period of time where I was going to possibly bankrupt the company, and I’m like, I can’t, I can’t do this anymore. And it was my love and my belief for what we were doing that really kept me going. But, yeah, man, it’s, it’s like eating glass,

Kara Goldin 23:58
yeah, no, it is. It’s funny that you say that, because I am, I feel like there’s, you know, there’s definitely points along the way, and you have, you have a whole team, right, that’s now relying on you. And I remember, like, blurting this out at one point, we were at an off site, and, you know, our whole team is there, and what I realized is that you’re like, I mean, you had this idea, like, I had this idea, and you’re scaling it, and all of a sudden, all these people have signed on to your idea, and it’s And so you can’t give up, right? You’re leading, right, and you’re leading, and you’re so fortunate that they even

Melinda Maria Spigel 24:47
came on a table right there, the people that work for me, I look at like you are risking your career being with me, and so I don’t want to let. You down, and I want to fill your pockets, and I want your family to enjoy more success and growth and bonuses and all those things. So that’s, that’s really important. Oh, that’s an important part of it, for sure. Yeah.

Kara Goldin 25:12
And I feel like that is, you know, it’s something that no one ever sort of told me and signing on to, you know, you’re just trying to get people to help you so that you can scale and build your brand. But then all of a sudden it becomes this, you can’t stop you can’t give up. You can’t, you know, you have to just keep going. And it’s sort of this. It’s, it’s a it’s a driver in many ways, but it doesn’t start out that way. And so, so interesting. So what are the top pieces that everyone right now of, of the brand of Melinda, Maria everyone has to

Melinda Maria Spigel 25:53
have? Yes, well, everyone needs a great diamond tennis necklace in their jewelry wardrobe. I don’t care like I wear it with my workout clothes, T shirts, like everything. So diamond, diamond tennis necklace. For one I say diamond, we mean our simulated diamonds. The Julian loves diamonds. It’s a mix between a Cuban chain and a tennis necklace, and then it has our signature padlock clasp on it, which is, like, that’s the one Taylor Swift wore. And like, everyone freaked out when Taylor wore it. And it’s a great necklace, because if you can’t decide between wearing a chain and a diamond tennis necklace, you can have both. And then I love our I’m wearing our zodiac right now. I just love a big Lariat pendant. And so I love layering the two together. And then, like, a great hoop. Everyone needs a great gold hoop. Everyone needs a great diamond hoop. I don’t know, but jewelry again, like, I started this because, like, jewelry should be fun and layer it. I mean, if this was real diamonds, this would be, like, I don’t know, $400,000 and who wants to spend that? So it should be done. It should be fun and layer. And have you know, I love it, because I always can go to a T shirt and jeans and a pair of heels, and then once I throw on some jewelry, it feels like, Okay, this feels put together, like I can actually go out. Definitely.

Kara Goldin 27:16
Do you have a store in LA as well? But

Melinda Maria Spigel 27:18
yeah, we just opened our first store, which was a long, laborious process to find what that perfect location was, and we happened to own this building. And so we thought, okay, this is where, like our marketing team is and fulfillment is next door, and we have a front facing, like retail location on La Brea. And so we were like, Wouldn’t it be great if somebody walked in, and to the right is our whole entire content studio, which is enormous, and then to the left they look and here’s our first store, and then here’s these stairs where people come in and out working. I come in and out of the studio, and I pop into the store. People are shopping. I’ll come in, I’m like, Hey, and I’ll style them. And they’re they’re like, freaking out. They’re like, Oh my god, I can’t believe that you’re in here styling me. And we get content through it. So it’s like a whole experience that whole community feel like it’s that, like we wanted to bring people into our world because it was so important. And it’s like, I’m like, that’s the part of the fun for me, is seeing people, meeting people, seeing how they interact, and try in the jewelry. And if I had a store that’s not where my office is, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be spending time there. So it’s really fun for me to come down and like to get that feedback from customers and people, and it’s great for my ego. Yeah, no, definitely. This is where I’m very famous, down just right here, down in my store.

Kara Goldin 28:43
I love it. What are you most excited about right now? Obviously, you just built the store, which is so exciting. But are you and you have so many great pieces. I mean, they’re just absolutely stunning and beautiful, and, like you said, really affordable. And would be not only perfect for everyone listening, but also for gifts, of course. So, but what are you most excited about, I guess, in this next chapter that as you’re growing Melinda, Maria, yeah,

Melinda Maria Spigel 29:17
I think, I mean, we’re just really excited, honestly, just to refine the collections that we have that are doing really well, like the Julian collection we’re building out next year. It’s like this really incredible way we’re building it out. I think, you know, we have a plan to open, you know, I think on the schedule in the next four years of like, 15 to 20 retail locations. So we’re rolling those out, and that’s really fun, you know. And just, I think, just to keep refining what we’re doing, we’re constantly we’re so nitpicky about everything. About is the experience. The best for the customer is the customer service. How can we, you know, how can we supply, you know, the best jewelry. How can we make the experience? Experience, the best experience for the customer. How can we make you know, returns better, like all the all the ways that we can constantly refine what we’re currently doing too it just for us. It is just literally never good enough. How does the class sound when it closes like we’re so anal about every single detail in the customer journey, and we’re just building, we have such a great team that we’ve built over the last year that I’m excited. Just to further dig into, like, all of our capabilities and how we work as a team.

Kara Goldin 30:33
I love it. How big is your team now?

Melinda Maria Spigel 30:37
Oh my god, it’s so fucking you know what? It’s interesting with AI. We’re getting, like, more efficient in in the in areas, so it’s a little smaller. I think we’re like 50, we have about 50 people

Kara Goldin 30:50
well, but that’s pretty good for for what you’re what you’re doing. That’s terrific, yeah. Well, Melinda, Maria, thank you so much for joining us today. You guys are doing such a fabulous job, and your jewelry is just absolutely awesome and such an inspiring story as well. So everyone needs to hop on and see what you’re [email protected] but also on your social because, as I said, your community is really, really something to follow. So you guys have done a great job. So and don’t forget to share this episode with others, please and subscribe as well. But thank you so much. Melinda, Maria, I really appreciate it.

Melinda Maria Spigel 31:37
Thank you. I’m so again, so honored, because you’re such a rock star in all different ways of your life. And you know, I’ve followed your journey, so I’m so grateful to have been here.

Kara Goldin 31:48
Oh, thank you so much. Thanks everyone, guys, thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit, and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast, just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms. At Kara Goldin, I would love to hear from you too. So feel free to DM me, and if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book, undaunted, where I share more about my journey, including founding and building hint, we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening and goodbye for now.

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