Jen Fisher: Author of Hope Is the Strategy

Episode 792

On today’s episode, Kara welcomes Jen Fisher, global workplace wellbeing expert and bestselling author of Hope Is the Strategy — the bold new book that reframes hope as one of the most powerful leadership tools of our time.
Jen is no stranger to redefining how we work. As Deloitte’s first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer, she helped transform the way global organizations think about human sustainability, burnout, and what it truly means to thrive. Her own experience with chronic burnout and cancer pushed her to ask deeper questions — not just about how we work, but why.
Today, as the founder of The Wellbeing Team, Jen is helping companies build cultures rooted in empathy, wellbeing intelligence, and what she calls “strategic hope.” Through her book, her podcast WorkWell, and her work with leaders around the world, Jen is showing that hope isn’t just an emotion — it’s a business imperative.
In this episode, Jen shares the story behind her burnout recovery, why wellbeing programs alone won’t fix broken systems, and how leaders at every level can start being “hope dealers” inside their companies. We dive into the difference between toxic resilience and true sustainability, why vulnerability in leadership is a superpower, and how we can all bring more humanity into how we work and lead.
A must-listen for anyone who’s ever felt like they’re running on empty — and knows there’s a better way forward.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be, we just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out, knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control. Control. Control. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really, some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go this episode of The Kara Goldin show is brought to you by LinkedIn. Jobs. Hiring can be one of the most important and time consuming parts of running a business. As you think about what your team needs heading into 2026 whether that means growing or getting more focused making the right hire matters more than ever. LinkedIn jobs helps take the guesswork out of that process. With LinkedIn jobs, AI assistant, you can identify strong candidates faster and higher with confidence. You’re not just filling open roles. You’re building a team that sticks. In fact, LinkedIn hires are 30% more likely to stay at least a year compared to the leading competitor, and that kind of retention really adds up. And finding the right hire doesn’t have to feel overwhelming with LinkedIn jobs. Ai assistant, you can skip the guesswork and jargon. It filters candidates based on your roles specific criteria and highlights top matches, so you’re not wasting time digging through endless resumes. When you’re running a business, you need a hiring process that’s fast and focused. Linkedin’s ai assistant delivers 25 strong candidate suggestions each day, giving you the chance to invite the right people to apply and keep the process moving. It’s a smarter, faster way to hire, and it’s why I rely on LinkedIn jobs. Hire right the first time, post your job for free at linkedin.com/kara Goldin then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That’s linkedin.com/kara Goldin to post your job for free, Terms and Conditions apply. Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Kara Goldin show today. I’m joined by Jen Fisher, who is a global authority on workplace well being and also a best selling author. This is her second book, so we are very, very excited that she decided to write this. This is a much more personal book than her first one, but some of you may know Jen is deloitte’s first ever Chief well being officer, or was, I should say, she’s retired from that role and but at Deloitte, she pioneered a human centered approach to work that’s changed the way countless organizations think about leadership, burnout and Culture, all things that are very relevant for so many today. And her incredible book that is just now coming out is called Hope Is the Strategy, which makes a powerful case for why hope isn’t just a feeling, it’s a business imperative, and I cannot wait to dive in. As I said, I got a preview of this book. And as I said, this is such an incredible, incredible book, and so personal, but really hit a lot of points for me, and I know for many others who will read it as well. So Jen, welcome to the Kara Goldin show. So excited to see you.

Jen Fisher 4:01
Thank you for having me. It’s so good to see you again too, absolutely.

Kara Goldin 4:05
Well, hope is a strategy is, like I said, such a relevant book for today’s world. How did you first believe that this was the book that you needed to write?

Jen Fisher 4:19
Now it’s a good question, you know, for me, for many, many years, Hope has always been an important part of my life, an important part of my own leadership strategy, and that goes back to my experience with pretty severe burnout about 10 years ago, and going through the process of recovery for that, and I sought out professional help. I went to a therapist, and that therapist was actually the first person who introduced me to hope as a science and the research and CR Snyder’s work and kind of the process. Sense of creating hope and making it a daily practice in your life. And from that moment, I was pretty hooked and started to really incorporate it into my own daily practices, my own life, and then ultimately into my own leadership practices within, you know, within Deloitte was when I was in that role. So after leaving last year, you know, I knew I wanted to write another book. Honestly, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to write about, but I think, like most of us that decide to write a book, it just kind of came to me when I wasn’t thinking about it. You know, certainly, I think influenced by the times that we’re living in, because, you know, it’s, it’s hard right now, and people are struggling, and, you know, the workplace is changing so rapidly, and you know, there’s so much uncertainty. And I think what I’m really seeing is that, you know, hope really is a skill set, and it’s an it’s a critical skill set for leaders. Because, you know, I think so many of us, at least me growing up, I’ve always heard hope is not a strategy, you know, like, we’ve all heard kind of, hope is not a strategy. And I’ve always, every time I hear that, I kind of, like, roll my eyes, and I’m like, Yeah, well, good luck with your strategy if you can’t get anyone on board. And so, you know what, in like, this age of constant transformation, of constant uncertainty, of so many layoffs of AI, you know, nobody knows what’s going to happen with AI, but the, but I feel like the, you know, the the narrative and the messaging around AI is really negative, and so why aren’t we teaching This skill of leading with hope and communicating hope for humans, which I don’t care what you tell me, humans are still the most important thing in a workplace, but we’re just not teaching this a skill as a skill, and I think it is incredibly critical. And so, you know, hope for me has been very personal, but has, you know, bled into my professional life in so many ways, and so I guess that’s ultimately why I decided to write it.

Kara Goldin 7:05
This episode of the Kara Goldin show is brought to you by LinkedIn. Jobs. Hiring can be one of the most important and time consuming parts of running a business, as you think about what your team needs heading into 2026 whether that means growing or getting more focused making the right hire matters more than ever. LinkedIn jobs helps take the guesswork out of that process. With LinkedIn jobs, AI assistant, you can identify strong candidates faster and higher with confidence. You’re not just filling open roles, you’re building a team that sticks. In fact, LinkedIn hires are 30% more likely to stay at least a year compared to the leading competitor, and that kind of retention really adds up. And finding the right hire doesn’t have to feel overwhelming with LinkedIn jobs. AI assistant, you can skip the guesswork and jargon, it filters candidates based on your roles specific criteria, and highlights top matches so you’re not wasting time digging through endless resumes. When you’re running a business, you need a hiring process that’s fast and focused. Linkedin’s ai assistant delivers 25 strong candidate suggestions each day, giving you the chance to invite the right people to apply and keep the process moving. It’s a smarter, faster way to hire, and it’s why I rely on LinkedIn jobs. Hire right the first time, post your job for free at linkedin.com/kara Goldin then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs, new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That’s linkedin.com/kara Goldin to post your job for free, Terms and Conditions apply. So you were at Deloitte. You were the first chief well being officer, and I would imagine that hope, even though you might not have defined it, and in this way, while you were managing the teams, you saw a lot of this, not just in your own life, but also in managing people. You talked a little bit about people, saying, hope is not a strategy, but seeing, you know, people needing to really see that Hope Is the Strategy. How did you put that into place inside of groups, if there’s a, if there’s a short way to sort of speak about that.

Jen Fisher 9:41
I mean, I you know, I think you’re right. It didn’t, you know, it didn’t initially come out as you know, oh, we’re going to create this hope strategy, you know, that’s not, not really how I addressed it, or how I would recommend that anybody addresses it. But I think that there. Key things that that leaders can do and leaders can learn, that you know, that I certainly did, and that I talk a lot about in the book, that you know, we we are the language that we use inside of organizations, especially when we’re going through transformations, or when there’s leadership changes, or when there’s uncertainty. You know, can, you know, I talk about them as hope killers and hope builders. And so just becoming aware of, you know, your own language patterns, which become ingrained in us inside of organizations. You know, people tend to talk a certain way. And so everybody talks a certain way. So things as simple, and I talk about this in my own experience as saying, oh, you know, we’ve already tried that before, and it didn’t work, or we don’t do things like that here. That’s not the way that we do it. That’s those are, that’s hope killing language, and we don’t think about it. And I talk about it in my own story is, you know, when I said things like that, I thought I was being responsible and prudent, like we’re not going to waste time on something that I know won’t work. But what you’re telling your workforce is, you know, we tell you we want innovation, but when you bring new ideas forward, we shut it down by saying that’s not the way we do things here, or we tried it before and it didn’t work. And so I, you know, I think a simple thing that that everyone can become aware of whether you’re a leader or not. That was really powerful and started to shift thinking and conversations in mindset was just and it’s not semantics, like it’s really real words matter, and especially when you’re a leadership role, you know, like it’s yes, actions matter, but words really do matter. And I think that we need to move away from this idea that, you know, what we say doesn’t matter, what we do matters, and what we say and what we do also matters. And so I think that that is, you know, one really critical way, and something that was, you know, really important for me as I embarked on the journey of well being inside of a large organization. I mean, talk about something that required a lot of hope. You know, big, big four consulting is not necessarily known for, you know, the well being of its people, you know, and it is much more now about, you know, caring about those things. But I was putting forward something that felt very almost controversial, right that, you know, high performance and well being seemed at odds, you know, for people, and so it required a lot of hope and a lot of kind of day to day practice of like helping people understand why this is important and why it matters.

Kara Goldin 12:41
So, so true. I loved your statement about burnout isn’t about exhaustion. Can you just define that for people a little bit more sort of your thinking on the word burnout, because I think we all have heard, perhaps even said it ourself, but have said, I’m burned out, right? But I’ve always felt like that was an excuse, right? Like that wasn’t the real story of what was going on, and it’s typically not the whole story. But I’d love to hear sort of the distinction that you’ve made on that,

Jen Fisher 13:16
yeah, so, and that’s really important to me as somebody who truly did experience burnout, because I think that you’re right. You know, we’re using burnout to describe a lot of things in our in our societal cultures and our workplace cultures right now that aren’t necessarily burnout. And I think what’s important to me is that burnout is a is a very serious diagnosis, and so when we use it to describe, oh, my God, I’m I’m really tired, I’ve been working really hard, I’m burnt out. You know, you’re doing a disservice to the people that are actually burnt out. And so, so we’re not kind of staying true to the to the definition. And unfortunately, I think, in the wellness and the well being space, you know, we pick up on a word and we overuse it. Resilience is another one, right? Like we overuse resilience to the point that people just become desensitized to it. When somebody says that, you know, they’re burnt out. Oh, you’re just tired. You know, rest over the weekend. Well, if you’re truly burnt out, resting over the weekend isn’t going to help you. There is much more that, you know, work that needs to be done there. And so I do define kind of different things around like burnout and depletion, but I think the statement that you’re referring to is that oftentimes, when we’re looking at burnout, or believe that we’re experiencing burnout, or perhaps even measuring burnout in an organization, what we’re actually measuring is the loss of hope. And so we’re actually measuring hopelessness. And so what do I mean by that? When people feel like what they do doesn’t matter or who they are doesn’t matter inside of an organization, they’re just kind of another cog in the wheel getting work done. If they don’t believe that they are. Seen or heard or that their voice has a place or a role inside of an organization, those are the types of things that actually lead to real burnout a lot faster than anything else. When work is challenging and hard, most people actually rise to the occasion if they are given the right tools and resources and feel like they, you know, their psychological safety, and they’re backed, you know, by their manager, and they have good relationships with their team members. That is exciting for people. I’m going to solve something really hard. That’s what I came here to do. When I feel like my work doesn’t matter and nobody cares about me or what I stand for or who I am, that actually leads to hopelessness. And so that was the distinction that I made that, you know, I think a lot of times when we’re talking about burnout, especially in the workplace, what we’re, what we’re really looking at is people that are just feeling hopeless right now, that they’re, you know, they’re not connected to the work that they’re doing or the mission of the organization, or, you know, anything in in that you know that matters, inside of the organization, they’re just going through the motions.

Kara Goldin 16:07
So so many high performing people fall into this trap. But how? What are maybe some initial steps just to break from this, this feeling,

Jen Fisher 16:20
this one is a hard one, because I think a lot of the things that are creating bad, well being outcomes inside of organizations right now are broader system issues, you know, the way that we’re working, the design of work, the flow of work, how much autonomy, autonomy I have the, you know, constant debate about flexibility and where, when and how I get my work done, that that leave people feeling helpless and hopeless, which is the worst of both worlds. And so I, you know, I think, as a as an individual and as a leader, you know, this is where the intersection of hope and well being are actually critical, taking care of your own well being creating this space as much as possible. We all have a sphere of influence, you know, people that we work with, day in, day out, where it’s a safe space, where you’re supporting each other’s well being as a leader to the best of your ability, you know, making sure that you know the people on your team know how to prioritize their work. They’re not feeling overwhelmed or overburdened by the work that they’re doing, and if they are, that they have a safe and open line communication with you to say, Hey, I you know, I can’t do all of this. Can you help me prioritize, and I think as leaders, that comes about from role modeling this behavior. And so look, I mean, when it comes to self care, is another, is another word that we have, that we’ve done our best to to have it mean nothing, but we’re all responsible for taking care of ourselves. Nobody can take care of ourselves for us. We have to do that. We have to set boundaries. We have to understand what it is that we need, and we have to have the courage to stand up and ask for that. And when we do that, we give everybody else permission to do the same. And that is, you know, kind of our most powerful anecdote against burnout, if you will. And that does create hope. You know, when I see somebody else that is modeling the behavior that matters to me, that you know, as a as a young person inside of an organization, I’m looking at, you know, my managers and my leaders to see what they do and how they do it, in order to determine, how am I? How can I be successful here? And so when we model that behavior, we create hope for the people that we’re leading to do the same thing.

Kara Goldin 18:55
So I think you called it a hope dealer. I like that.

Jen Fisher 18:58
I like it, and it’s on

Kara Goldin 18:59
my hat. I love it. I love it. What can you do if you are, I guess, working with somebody, working for somebody that just doesn’t have this hope. So I you know, I’m sure that that is a reality for so many, because maybe you’re working for somebody who is pretty burned out that doesn’t really know what to do, I think it’s very contagious, right? And so, so what can you do to not fall into that trap?

Jen Fisher 19:36
I think that that’s the great thing about hope, is that you don’t have to have a particular role or a particular title to actually be a hope dealer. You know it is, it is a daily practice. It is in the the language that we use and the way that we schedule our days, in the way that we treat other people. So I think that there’s a couple of things. Number one. If you are working for a leader that you know you don’t feel like as a hope dealer, right, that is burnt out themselves or doesn’t really inspire hope in you or others, you know who else are you working with that you can you know that you can partner with to say, like, how can we support one another? You know, how can we make sure that we’re helping to create and inspire hope for one another? Can you come up with a plan to go to that leader? And, you know, a lot of times, you know, we we put everything on the leader, we put everything on the manager. Well, to your point, if the manager is burnt out. It might not mean that the manager is a really bad person and doesn’t care about you. It probably just means that the manager can’t get their head over the over the water either, to actually even see what’s going on and on their team. That was certainly true for me, like I just you know, you get you’re you’re in survival mode. You’re so depleted that you can’t see the behavior. You can’t see what’s going on with others. And so, you know, recognizing if you might be that leader, but if you have that leader, getting together with some of your colleagues and putting together some small ideas and going to the leader and not asking anything of them, other than, hey, we’d like to try these one or two or three things on our team, and that’s going to look different from from team to team. But sometimes, when you bring solutions to a leader instead of problems or a problem and solution, and you know, you can become the hope dealer on that team, it doesn’t always have to fall on on the leader. I think the other thing that is really important to understand is, which I think is surprising to a lot of people, is that hope and hopelessness can coexist. They can, you know, so you could be hopeless about kind of a bigger problem, a systemic problem within the workplace, or hopeless about the larger problem of climate change, but you can feel a lot of hope about the activities and the things that you’re doing to create progress, right? And so you may not be able to solve the entire problem, and that’s the science of hope. That’s what CR Snyder and so many others have said, is like real, real and realistic hope has to have three components. It has to have a goal. It has to have pathways, meaning you have to have a couple of different ways in which you think you can reach that goal, and then you yourself actually have to have the ability to move towards that goal. So you can’t just be like, Oh, I’m gonna, you know, win the lottery tomorrow, go buy your ticket and sit, you know, like, sit on the couch and do nothing. That’s false hope. It’s it. That’s just, I mean, that’s, you know, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, right? And so for realistic hope to actually happen and to work. Now, the hard thing about hope is that it doesn’t guarantee success. Hope can let you down, and it has let me down many times. But that’s the beauty of the pathways. You know, like, Okay, you go down one path and it doesn’t work well, you’ve already identified two other ways that maybe you can reach this goal. And so I never, I always encourage people to say, like, you know, when you’re developing your own personal hope strategy and you set your goal, or your goals, make sure that you’ve identified multiple ways in which you can get there. And then that’s really helpful. When you hit a roadblock, you’re not like, oh man. Well, this sucked. I failed. I might as well give up. You can say, Okay, well, this is interesting, but now I have another path that I can go down and see if we can make it work that way, and that’s typically really empowering and motivating to people to know that, you know, I’m not stuck because something didn’t work.

Kara Goldin 23:49
Yeah, definitely, I I’ve heard you talk about redefining ambition, and when I read a little bit more about your thinking on this. I think, you know, this whole hustle culture, I think has really blown up as well and but can you give us your take on what does ambition mean, not just to you today, but what’s healthy, right? I think that that’s really what it boils down to,

Jen Fisher 24:23
yeah, and I think especially in many Western cultures, we often define success and therefore ambition by, you know, our our careers, and you know, what’s our title, and how Many people do we manage, and how much money do I make, or how big is my house, or do I have, you know, the latest iPhone? And I, I think that you know that that has led us astray, because what we don’t include in that definition of success. Is, you know, what are my relationships like? You know? What is my you know, what is my home life like? What is my family? Are we healthy? You know, am I taking good care of myself? Am I Am I able to take care of the people that I love? Do I have hobbies? Do I have friends like that? For me, for a long time, was missing from my definition of success, so it wasn’t even something that I would strive for. And so I’m not saying that ambition is wrong, but ambition in you know, when the definition of what success is that that ambition is towards, is ill defined, then the ambition becomes really narrow. And I think that that’s where, you know, hustle culture comes from, right? Is like, we’re all, you know, we’re all trying that this, this kind of metaphor of the of the corner office, has misled all of us. It’s created a ton of competition, this feeling that we need to keep up with everybody else and what everyone else is doing, and nobody has. I mean, this was like an eye opener for me when somebody said, Well, what’s Jen Fisher’s definition of success? And I was like, What do you mean? You know, like, I don’t have a definition of success. I’m just doing what everybody else is doing because they appear to be successful and happy. Well, they could be successful and falling apart inside, right? And why is their definition, my definition? And so I think we all need to get really clear on, you know, what’s our definition of success, and then set our ambition towards those things that actually align to our values. And I think a meaningful career can and should be a part of that. But it can’t be everything, because, especially in today’s day and age, you know careers. You know jobs, not just careers. You know jobs come and go, and so if your identity is tied to to what you do for a job or what you do for any particular company, you’re going to be let down, you know? And that’s not, that’s not a definition of success.

Kara Goldin 27:04
Yeah, definitely. And if you’re not enjoying what you’re doing right now, right, that doesn’t mean that you quit what you’re doing right today, but in order to figure out exactly what is going to give me pleasure,

Jen Fisher 27:21
and if you have ambitions outside of your job, you know it can work can serve the purpose of fueling those other things. So work might have, might not have to be the most meaningful thing in your life. It might not have to be the most purposeful thing, but it is the purpose of it is to fuel the things in your life that really do matter to you, and that’s okay, too, but we never get taught that.

Kara Goldin 27:44
Yeah, exactly. Well, Hope Is the Strategy. Jen Fisher, brand new must, must read really thoughtful, not just for individuals, but also for people who are leading teams. And I think the best books get you thinking, right that you’re not just reading it for information, but gets you thinking about, like, What did she mean by this, and how do I bring this into my own life? So I think you did such a nice job. But thank you so much. And definitely, I have all the links and show notes on Amazon, local bookstores as well, of course. And for everyone listening, check out Jen fisher.com but also all of her social for Jen Fisher, so thank you so much. Hope Is the Strategy is the book. Everyone go out and get it. Thank you so much. Jen, thank you, Kara. Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit. And of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast. Just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms at Kara Goldin, I would love to hear from you too. So feel free to DM me, and if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book, undaunted, where I share more about my journey, including founding and building hint, we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening, and goodbye for now.

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