Michelle Cordeiro Grant: Founder & CEO of GORGIE

Episode 597

Kara Goldin Show, we’re joined by Michelle Cordeiro Grant, the Founder and CEO of GORGIE, a brand that’s revolutionizing the energy drink market with a focus on wellness and better-for-you ingredients. Michelle is a serial entrepreneur who previously founded LIVELY, a lingerie brand that quickly gained traction for its innovative "Leisurée" concept, blending lingerie and leisurewear. LIVELY grew into a community-driven brand with over 165,000 ambassadors and a $105 million acquisition within just three years.
Now, Michelle is taking on the male-dominated energy drink industry with GORGIE, a wellness-focused energy drink that’s already making waves, landing in major retailers like Sprouts Farmers Market and Whole Foods within six months of its launch. During our conversation, Michelle shares the story behind the creation of GORGIE, the challenges she faced in bringing the product to market, and how she leveraged her experience with LIVELY to build a brand that resonates with today’s health-conscious consumers.
We also dive into Michelle’s approach to innovation, the importance of sustainability in GORGIE’s development, and how she has harnessed the power of social media and personal branding to build awareness and drive growth. Whether you're interested in entrepreneurship, brand-building, or the evolving landscape of wellness products, this episode is packed with actionable insights and inspiration. Tune in to hear Michelle’s incredible journey and learn more about the rise of GORGIE. Now on The Kara Goldin Show.

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Transcript

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be. I want to be you. Just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked out, knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control. Control. Hi everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs and really, some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi everyone, and welcome back to the Kara Goldin show. So, so excited to have our next guest. We have Michelle Cordeiro Grant, who is the founder and CEO of GORGIEE. And if you have not tried GORGIEE, you must, must, must try it. Michelle is a serial entrepreneur who’s built not just one or I should say, in the process of building an incredible brand, but also has had another incredible brand called lively. After a career in retail giants like Victoria’s Secret, she launched lively in 2016 redefining the launch rate industry with her leisure concept, and in just three years, sold this incredible company that was really community driven brand with over 165,000 ambassadors for over $100 million good for you. So incredible. And then in 2022 launched GORGIEEe. Very, very different industry, different market, but I have all the faith in Michelle that she’s going to kill it. So it’s really, really exciting to not only try this great product, but also watch her rapid success with the product. So very excited to have her here to talk a little bit more about it. So welcome Michelle.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 2:05
Oh my gosh, Kara. I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me absolutely

Kara Goldin 2:10
well, it’s exciting to finally meet you. I was saying to Michelle, before we hit record that I was gonna have her on the show with lively and I’m not sure what happened exactly. I think she was in the process of selling her company, so that sort of makes, like, life a little more complicated during that time, but I’m so excited to be able to finally meet her today. So before we dive into GORGIEEe, can you share a bit about your background? I gave little snippets of it, but I’d love for everybody to hear more about you.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 2:44
Yeah. So I was born and raised in rural Pennsylvania. My parents immigrated here from India and raised us in a town with one Indian family. It was mine. And so, you know, I look back on my entrepreneurial journey thus far and realize a lot of it is because I just love brands. Brands were how I assimilated to my community. They were wearing Kyle van Klein. I’m wearing Calvin Klein. Like brand was that connective tissue for me? Fast Forward, I started a career with federated, creating, creating brands for disorders with Macy’s and Bloomingdale’s, then BF, and then truly fell in love with direct to consumer at Victoria Secret. And there is kind of where, you know, it started. I never thought I wanted to be an entrepreneur. Didn’t even know the word, could barely spell it. But saw these brands so huge, billion dollar brands, 30, 40% market share of 13 billion in the United States. But with the rise of social media, I just felt like there could be something different and more relevant to the consumer that you know wants to feel like themselves every day versus what they see on billboards. So that’s kind of the cliff notes on how I ended up here, it was very much a curiosity on how to live life a different way, because, frankly, I loved my job. I was the girl like giggling and skipping to work or on the subway singing, and I loved my female bosses and mentors, but when I looked at their lives, I realized I needed a different path. I wanted one where I could hang with my husband, see my kids have this multifaceted lifestyle and maybe even own a company.

Kara Goldin 4:29
Yeah, no, absolutely. So let’s talk about lively for a second. So one of the things that I think about when I think about your brand was community and sort of how you grew that brand, obviously, products too, but, but community based, and that became kind of a buzzword, and I think you’re probably a brand that did it well. So when you talk about lively and sort of the memories that. It. I mean, can you give a snapshot just of that company as well? Yeah.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 5:04
I mean, it was a very utopian roller coaster of a journey. You know, I quit my job when I was 35 and got my first investment, literally on my birthday to start this brand, sat down at a table with three glass walls around me. Was like, uh, I guess I’m starting a company. And just started writing notes on like how. And I got to the thesis that when I asked all of the founder community and people around me, I was generating amazing ideas and ways in which I could do this, and that kind of sparked the idea of, like, go bigger. Michelle, ask social media, what do women really want from this category? And hello, Instagram. Like, pre Instagram Stories, early. Instagram. I just started, you know, going to women in the middle of the country and saying, you know, I’m going to create a brand. Do you want to build it with me? And if I do like, I’ll have you post it first. You could be part of this and so forth. And that’s like, kind of Honestly, how it started. It wasn’t purposeful. It was accidental. But what we realized is those women, those people, not only were they giving us, like, true stories as to why this category so large but loathed by women was also born every day. And like, how could it get better? The nut that we learned was women wear sports bras 60% of the time, not working out swimwear. Same deal. Feel better in it. So that’s where the concept of leisure a came from, running through Central Park thinking about what these women are thinking and saying. And I’m like, athleisure lingerie. Athleisure lingerie. Like leisure a, guys like, run into this the office with my two interns and one full time employee. I’m like, figured it out, and I was like, leisure A, and they were like, That’s dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. And I was like, gold Sharpie, leisure a white piece of paper, tape it to the glove it, and they’re just like, okay, Michelle, months later, press picks it up. Women pick it up, and they’re like, this is yes, yes, yes. We actually hate our bras. We love our sports bras. Can you combine the two? And that just that dialog started. You know, the only other story I’ll tell you about lively which was like, why I manifest and believe so deeply in God in the universe. A month before we launched, we did a crowdsourcing campaign leveraging Harry’s code. They got 100,000 emails in four weeks. You know, we’re going to do the same thing. We got 120,000 emails in 48 hours, 300,000 sessions globally. Because we crowdsourced everything about our slogan, our splash page, everything. And from that day on, I was like, well, turn on all of customer service. We have nothing to sell. But the conversation has started. The community is here. The brand is love. That

Kara Goldin 7:57
is that’s so wild. So that’s how you initially fundraised for lively.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 8:03
Yeah, I’m

Kara Goldin 8:04
the ground. I

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 8:05
was super lucky on lively in that, you know, it’s definitely a mix of luck and strategy what we do. And my first investors were the largest, if not one of the largest, manufacturers of lingerie for big mass marketers. And they saw the same thing, they saw Harry’s, they saw Warby. They wanted to do it. And then we met. They’re like, wait, you can do it.

Kara Goldin 8:28
That’s amazing. That’s so, so great. So and then you ultimately sold it. I mean, pretty fast, like, three years is not done. So who ultimately ended up acquiring it. Yeah.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 8:42
I mean, think, you know, so grateful for the outcome where walk hole, um, Oprah’s Favorite bra actually bought lively and, I mean, wow, what an emotional moment. Yeah, we were ready to sell our company. I wasn’t even thinking about that moment. Yes, amazing. You know, having your company bought by someone that is a global public company, you’re just like, wow, okay,

Kara Goldin 9:05
yeah, no, that’s, that’s absolutely amazing. So, so then you jumped into the energy drink space. Makes tons of sense, right? Why not? So what and what? How did this come about? Yes,

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 9:21
I know bras to beverage everyone, so natural, so natural, you know, I, I was really sad after, you know, I stepped down from lively as CEO, and I thought I wanted to advise and do boards and all these things. But nothing like filled my soul and gave me that sense of joy. And I realized building brands is what I love to do. Now I’m done with apparel. Like, know, too much steam, too much etc. And I was like, wellness, CPG, like, I see everything in this space, it’s very clean, it’s very minimal, it’s so beautiful. But, like, Why can’t. It feel like a fashion magazine. Like, why can’t it be colorful and sparkly and emotional the way that that we are in apparel and even beauty? And I honestly started playing with the ideas of cellular renewal, and, like, my six vitamins and supplements I take every day. Like, how can I make this fun community? Is what brought me to beverage. I started a Google survey on my phone, and I started surveying everyone. I’m like, I’m going to make my six supplements candy. And they’re like, great, want to drink it. I’m like, I’m going to make it a powder. Great. Want to drink it. Don’t want the powder. Want it in a can or a glass bottle. And I’m like, what really okay, and we’re like, continuing to test and play with all of these different things. Jason Cohen by my side, like literally leading me through this, this charge. It’s like we could do candy, we can do powder, we can do all of these things. I’m in Florida. My family moves to Florida, and this is where it happens. I live in Boca Raton. Everybody here has got an energy drink in their hands. And I’m like, what everyone drinks? Energy drinks all day. I didn’t see it that way in New York. I’m thinking Red Bull days, you know? RBV, everyone, right? And I’m like, reading about them. I’m like, Oh, my God, they’re better for you now they’re good for you. They figured this out. I go to Whole Foods to buy one, one that’s like, now has a ten billion valuation. The woman in Whole Foods is like, can’t sell them. Like, what she’s like, doesn’t meet our health criteria. And as an entrepreneur, you’re just like, oh, like, the light shut down on you in the aisle. And I’m like, this, this is it? Like, this is really it? I’m like, what if we made an energy meets wellness drink? And I was so thankful I found someone, literally, that interned for Tiktok. And I’m like, Erica, I don’t know, Tiktok. We gotta put this on Tiktok. That was awesome. And so, yeah, an idea in the middle of August to Labor Day weekend with a juice in a jar, GORGIEEe was born.

Kara Goldin 12:06
That’s That’s incredible. So what is GORGIEEe, for those who have not tried it, beyond the beautiful packaging that you guys have developed. So what is inside?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 12:16
Yeah, so GORGIEEe is truly making energy, you know, better for you. Inside this, can we have green tea, zero sugar, but we do not use erythritol or sucralose. We use L theanine to kind of give you that clarity and focus. No roller coaster rides on, you know, caffeine, etc, biotin, b6 and B 12. And, you know, we really are proud of how much further we’ve come in bringing wellness and energy together in that, basically the energy drink that was launched in Whole Foods. Literally, Whole Foods launched us on January 11, 2023 we’re a green on the yucca app for all you Yuka app lovers. We’re sports content certified. We are, you know, truly an energy drink that gives you that feeling of, not Whoo, not an uphill but like, Ha, I feel like I worked out. I feel like I just got a great night’s sleep.

Kara Goldin 13:12
I love it. So where did the name come from?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 13:15
So, you know, I I’m probably similar to many entrepreneurs, and I’m very statistical, but very creative. So I had a list about, I don’t know, anywhere from 40 to 70 names with matching URLs on GoDaddy, but I kept thinking about gorgeous humans. Like, how do we make humans feel so good on the inside that they’re just glowing on the out? And so gorgeous, gorgeous human, gorgeous, tighten that baby up because you like short words, GORGIEEe was born. Some people call us Georgie. I’m here for both tomato tomato. I

Kara Goldin 13:47
love it. So energy drinks have been such a male dominated industry, for sure, but I feel like I think in some ways, you’re part of a group of of beverages that are, you know, really focused not just on women. I mean, men can definitely drink your drink too. But I I just feel like it’s, you’re almost creating another category. Like, I almost think like, when people, when women, hear energy drinks, like, it’s like, uh, you know, yet they do want energy, but it’s, it’s such a and to your point, it’s not this boom, you know, boost. You want something that is not going to make you shaky and jittery, you know. You want something that’s just going to give you a little bit of a lift, that isn’t caffeine and make you jittery. So how have you guys thought about that?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 14:42
Yeah, I mean, look, it really fundamentally started as, where is the energy drink that women are proud to carry, to share, to post right the way that we post our our lip gloss, and all of these things that we do, our accessories, all these things, where’s that energy drink? Yeah, and I couldn’t find one, right? And, but then I noticed, I noticed women were carrying them and kind of hiding them. They buy them from, you know, Publix, kind of putting it behind their pocket, flight attendants right behind like, I started to see all of these patterns happening. And then when I would find one that were made for women, quote, unquote, they were actually made by men with good intent, but they didn’t quite hit what we wanted. So this time around, as a female entrepreneur, I was like, this isn’t going to be a buy Women for Women brand. This is going to be a buy women for all with our lens. And I started to really think about fashion brands. Think about Lululemon, made for women, right? They really transitioned. What are yoga pants for? Enter athleisure, transition, literally how people dress the majority of the time, but both men and women. Now, you take that same thesis to energy drinks. I honestly think energy drinks are replacing coffee for many people in their lives, because they’re realizing, in this case, we don’t dehydrate, we don’t give you that kind of sting and the burn in the end. Yet it can be dual gender and fun, but with the female lens first,

Kara Goldin 16:12
yeah, no, I love it. So you obviously have built another brand based on community, and you guys are killing it here too. I was just talking to another entrepreneur in the beauty industry and talking about Tiktok. I just think that there’s, there’s so many different channels where you have not only opportunity to gain awareness with consumers, but it almost like skews your your your beverage or whatever your product is in to an entirely different market, because we used to think, for example, you know, people who shop at Whole Foods, they’ll tell you that the shoppers from whole foods are Women and whatever, 3525 depending whatever and but we always knew that they’re bringing stuff home, especially if there’s other people in the house, and then you’ve got this opportunity on Tiktok. I know there, there’s a ton of other brands that are selling through Tiktok, alive and everything. But how have you seen that as especially with a brand new brand, brand and somebody who’s, you know, very community, and you understand this market very, very well. Like, how do you view those social channels in terms of selling product as well?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 17:33
You know, they the community on Tiktok and Instagram. Is how GORGIEE became to look like this, like my graphic designers were like, Michelle, we can’t put humans on the can. I’m like, Yes, we can. Like, what do you think Instagram and Tiktok is like? What if the can was the new Instagram? Like, what the benefits were chosen by the community, and then they got to show up on the shelves of whole foods, like, or, you know, air, one huge, huge breakthrough in how consumers think, right? They were born on a two dimensional screen. Now they can see themselves on a three dimensional shelf. So just ask them what they want. And that’s how we got to our flavors, our profile, everything now, once we launched right, that goes even deeper, because you can treat your brand like think about what really trends on Tiktok beauty, like, new hacks. We did the same our PR boxes. I remember being up to, like, midnight, DMing, messaging, all of these people were going bananas because they wanted these, like, little PR boxes behind us that had, you know, disco balls and stickers, and can, like, they just want. So funny the fun, right? And then you take it a step further, and we have magazines and phone cases and so forth, right? It’s been a year and a half. I mean, Kara, I literally, this is my mail from the other day. These are like handwritten notes from people, yeah, talking about an energy drink, right? Like, what have we done? We’ve created brand stickiness, and that what happens on Tiktok like that is what happens on Instagram, is you foster a relationship in a totally different way, a totally different way. No,

Kara Goldin 19:17
I think that that is so true, and you guys have done such a great job with that too, and that sort of leads to the other question too. I always say that consumer feedback is, is the gold, right? It’s the it’s it gives founders energy, right, especially on those hard days, because we don’t always have, you know, wonderful days we get discontinued from something, or, you know, run doesn’t work out the way that we thought it was going to, or whatever it is, or there’s some, some sort of, or our best employee quits, or whatever. But then we get that consumer feedback, and, you know, and it’s, it’s like. Like, so, so valuable. Do you feel like you’re getting more in the in the beverage with this than you were with apparel?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 20:08
Oh my gosh, apparel, bras. Like, I like, realized, like, like, for years I was, like, getting humans into bras and undies. They’re like, What size are you? Do you? What do you like about your bra here. It’s like, try this, right? Like, oh my gosh, okay, you’re an adult. Please try this. Drink this. Like, I remember I had someone taste a sample out of a glass jar at 11pm on the corner of streets of Philly. Like, I can’t believe you drank that actually the next day, but it’s so much more like freeing how easily I can connect with humans is so interesting. Yeah, beyond and then the letters and the notes and the pictures that you get from community, like we actually started a Geneva community the app, right? Because we saw that we had these really sticky community members from social but we needed to go a layer deeper. So now you have 1000s of people in a community app telling us which merch to make. When we launched our first stores, we went national with sprouts. These girls, some drove an hour and a half to meet up and, like, celebrate our drink going onto a shelf. And so great. I mean, there’s just, like, so much depth. And I laughed my husband, I said to him, I was like, I literally sit around and think about aluminum cans all day.

Kara Goldin 21:26
Just no, it’s just, it’s crazy. Now, how many SKUs did you actually launch with?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 21:32
We launched with three, and then in Whole Foods, and then we expanded to six within six months.

Kara Goldin 21:38
That’s wild. And how do you feel? Like, have there been any, like, surprising flavors that took off, or that nobody wanted, or anything? I remember we had a story with our the brand I founded, hint that we one of our original flavors was cucumber and I loved cucumber water. And we would get emails from consumers primarily, and this a long time ago, and in New York, where they’d be like, if you don’t discontinue that cucumber water, like, I’m never gonna forgive you. I’ll never try your brand. I mean, it was just the funniest, funniest emails. And then we couldn’t keep it in stock in Los Angeles. I mean, it was just all these, like, such funny things. And anyway, we decided actually to bring it back in limited editions online, because there were certain things on the shelf that they were just too regional or and we found that, like, the buyer wouldn’t necessarily look at the data as closely, and they’d say, Oh, the product doesn’t sell because there was, like, one flavor that wasn’t selling as much or, you know, or we would have, like, you know, really, I remember launching hibiscus, and I grew up in Arizona, and I knew what hibiscus was, and I loved hibiscus, hibiscus tea, but most people didn’t know what hibiscus tasted like, so then that they wouldn’t buy it unless we were, yeah, and so there were so many learnings. But has there, has there been anything like that for you? Yes.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 23:16
I mean, like, out the gate that we had a dragon fruit flavor, which I was obsessed with I was like, Oh, this is gonna be number one. Done, yeah. Social media was like, boom, no jack. Everyone was like, no dragon fruit, no dragon fruit. Like, so interesting. We want watermelon and we want peach, right? And we want punch watermelon, peach and punch one, two and three of sales across America. They weren’t wrong. But then, like, you have these different genres. So I’m like pointing behind my screen, but like electric Berry, which is our most like candy vibe flavor. College crowd obsessed with electric Berry. And then men, shockingly, which is, this is our purple flavor. And then you find, like peach tea, which kind of has, like that nostalgic kind of, you know, snappily feel to it. Very northeast loves it versus Cali loves punch and mango, like you do have these regional things. And then we, we give them, like little personalities, yeah, vacation in a can watermelon for everyone and so forth, but it’s fun how you get, like, really behind a flavor and the feelings it gives you, right?

Kara Goldin 24:29
Yeah, no, I love it. So are what, obviously, you’re selling direct to consumer as well. Do you feel like that is and you’re on Amazon and you’re doing what many, many brands are doing. Like, how important is retail versus like, direct to consumer? Is one more of a focus? Or are they all important? Yeah, I

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 24:52
think they’re like oxygen for each other. Yeah, totally, totally. Like, as soon as we went national. Our Amazon business turned on, and now it’s like, we ship to every state in America. It was every month, and my mind was blown. And now it’s like every two weeks, and then you see them like the repeating every nine days, middle of the country, the letters you get, et cetera. So, you know, I think the shelf is so premium because people discover you there, and it’s a billboard, right? And it’s just like this amazing human connection. Because I think in real life is the greatest gift. Two dimensional. However, I’m very bullish on digital convenience, like Instacart and like all these different ways Amazon, of course, like I personally, I love to order everything on my phone. It’s so bad, so

Kara Goldin 25:42
so much easier. But have you guys done any thing like Tiktok live and some of those other

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 25:50
channels? Yes, huge, right? But you got selling too, yes, yes. And you have to find the right creator. I mean, obviously get your shop set up and then see the right creators to go live for you major, like, we’re really breaking through there. Like, just started to hit the gas on. Like, you know, five to six figures in that business. But then also, like, I’ll give you a great example. Yesterday we had a really exciting launch. There’s a creator, her name’s Jacqueline Hill. Like many people, learn how to do their makeup from Jacqueline. Yeah, 8.8 million followers. Was posting GORGIEEe with a link, and I’m like, saying to our team, I’m like, who knows? Who knows Jaclyn Hill? They’re like, not us. I mean, love her. Finally, like, meet her, and she’s like, My friend gave me this drink, Michelle, I love it. I’ve replaced everything for it. And yesterday, we launched her own flavor, bonkers on the internet,

Kara Goldin 26:48
like that’s crazy. And what is the flavor?

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 26:52
It’s called Orange twist, and it’s got this, like, nostalgic orange soda with just a hit of, like that cream hug, and then it feels like, you know, Aperol Italian, when you kind of feel the vibe of the creative and the art. And I’m like, literally, I’m holding my pantones because I was, like, playing with images earlier, just like you would in fashion, of course. But anyway, I bring that because that’s what you learn on Instagram and Tiktok. But then you push it back out on those channels, and they they’re not messing around. Yeah,

Kara Goldin 27:23
no, I think that that’s that is such valuable wisdom, for sure. So last question, reflecting on your entrepreneurial journey, you’ve been in a couple of different industries, and I bet you’ve learned some really important lessons along the way. But maybe, what, what would you tell yourself before you got started all the fears that you had and, or, or maybe it’s, I mean, I always say, if we knew what we were getting into, we would have never gone like, I mean, I think it’s, it’s such a it’s, it always takes longer, you know, obviously you sold your company very, very fast the last one. But in general, you know, it’s, it’s hard, it’s tough being a founder, and even if you have an incredible team or a partner, I mean, there’s just, you’ve got to be able to multitask like crazy and do lots of focus on lots of different communities, and be able to have lots of different conversations and develop a great product. And there’s, it’s just a lot. But what would you say to somebody who’s thinking, Should I do this? Yeah,

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 28:36
I would say there’s two things connected. Number One is there’s no I in team, and it’s really the people you surround yourself with, total people you hire, the people that invest in you. It is like a true I say, I used to say it was family, but it’s really a sports team, and you need to leverage all the people around you just like you would if you’re trying to get that ball down the field. Like, who’s the best for what position and who are your coaches? And that’s constantly changing, by the way, constantly. And the second piece is the mental rigor as a founder is like, you know, I say it’s like being an athlete. I didn’t know how to run a mile until I learned how to run a mile, until I learned how to run five to 10 to 26 but the the training and the rigor that it took to get there is like no joke, entrepreneurial minds is same way, like the first time around, I lay on my floor and cry like 17 times a week, like it’s over, and now The shit comes, and you’re just like, I got this Yes, cold shower or run deep breathing. I know who to call maybe. And the best part about what we do is we don’t see the world as problems. We see it as puzzles, and our job is to solve the puzzle.

Kara Goldin 29:59
So. True? Yeah, I talk about that a lot. I mean, I think that the puzzle is, you have to love doing puzzles because and the puzzle never ends, right? And you don’t have the picture, nobody gave you the box, and, you know, you just keep, like, going and keep adding on and collecting the puzzles, and it’s just this never ending so, and I know you know that so, so well, so well. Michelle Cordero grant, founder and CEO of gorg, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for joining us. And it’s such a pleasure to meet you in person too. I love it. I hope, or I should say, meet you. I hope to meet you in person soon.

Michelle Cordeiro Grant 30:42
That’s right, that’s right. This was such a gift. I’m so thankful.

Kara Goldin 30:45
Super thankful. Thank you. Thanks again for listening to the Kara Goldin show. If you would please give us a review and feel free to share this podcast with others who would benefit and of course, feel free to subscribe so you don’t miss a single episode of our podcast, just a reminder that I can be found on all platforms. At Kara Goldin, I would love to hear from you, too. So feel free to DM me, and if you want to hear more about my journey, I hope you will have a listen or pick up a copy of my Wall Street Journal, best selling book. Undaunted, where I share more about my journey, including founding and building. Hint we are here every Monday, Wednesday and Friday. Thanks for listening, and goodbye for now. You.

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