Adam Lippin: Founder of HearMe, Cuddlist & Atomic Wings

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be I want to be, you just want to make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone and welcome to the Kara Goldin show. Join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone. It’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I am so thrilled to have my next guest. Here we have Adam Lipin, who is the founder of hear me, catalyst and atomic wings. But today, we’re going to talk about his journey. His third startup is hear me. And with it, he’s on a mission to make mental health support accessible, affordable and immediate. And hear me is an app that connects people to trained and caring volunteer listeners for a real time chat. So like any great entrepreneur, many of whom we’ve had on this podcast, he saw the hole in the market, had an idea decided he could help people. And so he created hear me. So Adam, as I mentioned, is not new to the startup world. He started atomic wings back in 1989. Hopefully I have that right. and sold it in 2019. That sounds like an incredible, incredible journey that I can’t wait to dig into. And his next startup 26 in 2016 was the cuddle list. Where it was an international cuddling service with over 3000 trained cuddling practitioners who have completed they have completed over 50,000 sessions, so can’t wait to chat with Adam more and dig into all of his journey. So more than anything understanding from Buffalo wings to cuddles and now helping so many people deal with mental health. So welcome, Adam.

Adam Lippin 2:22
Thank you so much. And I’m a big fan of yours and really delighted to be here today.

Kara Goldin 2:27
Oh, thank you. Well, tell us more about young Adams. So did you think that you were going to be this serial entrepreneur? And what did you think you were going to be doing when you grew up?

Adam Lippin 2:39
You know, it’s funny, because when I was growing up, and I had friends, I was like a heroine is going to be a lawyer like Dan’s gonna go into advertising. You just sort of like, kind of know people’s path by knowing them. And I was always sort of like people described me as like an enigma inside of a conch shell, like, very hard to pin down. So I didn’t know I wasn’t going to have a traditional path. And I had an inkling that I was going to be doing I that I would be starting companies or doing things that I felt were important or interesting.

Kara Goldin 3:10
That’s awesome. And so what was your first job?

Adam Lippin 3:13
Well, I mean, I had tons of jobs growing up. But my first real job out of college was I was a commercial real estate broker for a company called new marketing company in New York City. And my job was to canvass buildings like literally back in the day, there was no security and I would try to find out when people’s leases were up and to anything I could to get in the door, and I would sell commercial real estate. So companies moving anything

Kara Goldin 3:40
interesting in New York City, in New York City.

Adam Lippin 3:43
So I did that for about two years, I learned a lot my boss, Barry golden, brilliant guy, and but I wasn’t connected to it, right. It didn’t feel mine. And I’ll get into my backstory in a bit. But I’m gay. And I knew I was gay when I was young. And I was incredibly uncomfortable with it. So I’m 21 working in New York City. And I was afraid to come out and it was afraid to tell anyone and New York commercial real estate at that time is was fairly insular. And I knew that I wasn’t going to be able or wanted to do like the the country club and play golf and take people to new wasn’t my thing. And so while I learned a lot, and I was actually very good at it, and I made, I did well, I knew that. At that time, I felt like I couldn’t stay there. I would pick out and it felt too uncomfortable, sort of like being in that environment for me.

Kara Goldin 4:35
So talk to me about atomic wings. How did this come about?

Adam Lippin 4:38
So I went to school, upstate New York, and I and I fell in love with chicken wings. And I moved to New York City and I lived on 32nd Street and Second Avenue. So for anyone who knows that area, especially with a kind of cost like the Cincinnati of Manhattan, there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s very nice, but like it’s not that exciting and people aren’t like drawn to the neighborhood. And there was pizza place called Ilos. On not not far away, and it was always crowded and they sold chicken wings. And so it’s like, and I went there because I liked chicken wings. But I started to ask people like, you know, you look familiar, where are you from, and people were coming from the Upper West Side from New Jersey. And I thought if this place selling these good chicken wings, but nothing outrageous, could draw people in, I could really, you know, kill it. So that’s what sort of gave the impetus I was selling commercial real estate. And then when I would get home from work, I would, on the weekends on Friday, I would like literally take a bus to Buffalo, New York, and I asked the cab driver, like, what’s when I got off the bus at the best wing places. Now we’d go to all these weird places, and I became friends with Dominic bellissimo, who was the son of the founder of the anchor bar, which is like, known for creating wings and Tufts, which is sort of more of the university. And I just sort of fell in love with it. And I decided I wanted to open up a chicken wing place in New York City and bring authentic influence to Manhattan.

Kara Goldin 6:00
This is so interesting. So you’re, you know, you said a few things there. So you’re networking. Obviously, you’re trying to figure you’re, you’re like piecing a puzzle together, what did you need to really be maybe more knowledgeable, but also more confident that you could ultimately go and start a restaurant because obviously New York City is probably one of the most competitive places, even in 1989, it was very competitive to start a restaurant, and you have never been in a restaurant?

Adam Lippin 6:33
No. And well, I’ve worked, you know, as a kid in restaurants. But one thing that you said in an interview that I read, it was when you started your water company, hence, there were all these big players, you didn’t really know anything about it, and you decided to go for it. And I look at like, I try to put things sort of like on the spiritual lines. And it’s like, Buddhists say the Buddhists say beginner’s mind, right. And my teacher from sixth grade said, ignorance is bliss, right? And there’s something about not knowing that much, because then you don’t have as much fear. And you trust yourself. So yeah, I just I just knew that if I brought great chicken wings to New York City, that was a passion of mine. And that was literally what I wanted to do. I wanted to have the best buffalo wings in New York City, bring the authentic, authentic experience to Manhattan.

Kara Goldin 7:18
So what was the first thing that you did looking back beyond doing kind of the research and getting sort of your, your recipe correct? When you just did you literally go out and find the real estate and that you wanted to watch? So

Adam Lippin 7:32
I was looking for real estate on the Upper East Side at that time. It was like post-collegiate pre yuppies, right? It was kids out of college that in 10 years are moving to Connecticut and starting families and they all sort of lived there. That was the neighborhood at the time. And so I was looking for real estate. And I actually went into a bar to go to the bathroom. And they had this kitchen. And there were people eating chicken wings. And it was like happy hour, like fried chicken wings. So I thought to myself, holy shit, this would be excuse my language, this would be really cool. I should take over this kitchen. So I approached the borrower. And he said, No, thank you. And I just kept on going back. And he was like, why, you know, is his name and having people come in and drink, you know, in hitting wings. And the time wings are not that expensive. And it’s like, there’s they’re drinking cheap beers, and they’re eating you dry, I can turn all of these people into, you know, making money for you. And so I opened the kitchen in a bar on the Upper East Side and at the time, and then I went down to Bowery and I looked at kitchen equipment, people told me that I needed and I talked to the people in Buffalo and I use the vendors that they used. And I at that point, I’d worked in their kitchens on the weekends, probably, you know, 10 or 11 weekends, like chopping carrots and celery and frying up wings and really getting an understanding of it. So interesting.

Kara Goldin 8:51
Well, and I always say, you know, things happen for a reason. So you look at your experience in commercial real estate, you knew a lot about real estate, right? You knew about neighborhoods, you know, you knew about licenses, all of those kinds of things that I think are a little scary to people who have just never done something. But you know, I think so often I I share this with entrepreneurs, you know, want to be entrepreneurs and college students all the time that you have to look at every piece along the way. And sometimes it takes you you know, later on to look back and say why was I there? But obviously to me you sharing that story that there was a reason why you were there and sort of understanding who you were and what you really wanted to ultimately do. So such an important and key point. So you’re clearly an entrepreneur and and what is it that you think makes great entrepreneurs in your mind?

Adam Lippin 9:46
I think you have to be fearless. I think you have to for me anyway, what I have to do is I have to be able to visualize, visualize sort of the outcome, right? Once I can visual As the outcome, I’m pretty good at taking the steps required to make that outcome happen. But I will never take on a project or business if I don’t actually see what the outcome can be. So I think that’s important is to have some real clarity. And then I think you just have to not be afraid. Yeah. You want you need to be smart and do your work. But you don’t want to be too smart. Almost right? Because then you can psych yourself out. I think that’s, that’s important.

Kara Goldin 10:29
I think most entrepreneurs to that, if you maybe if you tell them, you know, are you okay with failing? Maybe that’s not your first your first thing that you’re thinking about. But if somebody said you had to start over again, you’d be okay with it. Right? Like, it’s, it seems like, it’s, it’s like, I have to give it a try. There’s this mentality that exists in entrepreneurs. That I think

Adam Lippin 10:56
part of it is, you know, what, sort of one of the things that fuels me is when people tell me that I can’t do something, right. So people told me, you can’t have a restaurant that just sells chicken wings? I said, Yes. All my relatives, like, what are you doing, you know, like, be a doctor, right? And then with CutList, I had people telling me, you know, cuddling is a business and you know, all sorts of stuff. And then with, you know, hear me hearing people talk about it’s not therapy, and sort of people bring their own conceptions into it. And I like to sort of like, Yeah, I kind of get that brings me energy, right, because I didn’t want to, like prove that I’m right, or prove other people wrong. And maybe that’s not the best motivation, but it works for me.

Kara Goldin 11:39
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Adam Lippin 14:27
So if you’re going to franchise, your business, make sure that you have a really good solid business and make sure there’s enough of a margin in that business to pay the franchisor percentage that they get. And don’t go into it lightly. Franchising is the most highly regulated industry. There is there’s if you know get audited every year, you have to do this huge federal document. So make sure that it’s not something you want to lightly I think starting a venture you can have a little more fun with right now. franchising gets incredibly detail oriented and you, you can’t mess up. Because if you say something that’s not true in a friend, if it’s not an if it’s you put something in a franchise circular, where you tell someone something and it’s not true, that’s illegal. Yeah. So really make sure that you understand what’s that your, your work, your business is going to shift pretty dramatically.

Kara Goldin 15:21
That’s why and where the franchise is outside of the US are only in the US,

Adam Lippin 15:25
we have some in Mexico. Uh, basically, I had I had seven or eight locations in Manhattan. And then I started franchising them. And when I sold the company, they were 32 locations, and I have had a huge wholesale business. So I started out using Frank’s Red Hot, right. And then after a while, I said, you know, I found a manufacturer, and I had eight different sauces that I private label that were my sauces, and ultimately, we would help wholesale them. So you know, major distributors would carry our sauces, and you could be somewhere right now, having like barbecue sauce, or when sauce was, you know, they could be mine.

Kara Goldin 16:03
So interesting. So let’s talk about cuddling. And so where did this idea for catalysts come about?

Adam Lippin 16:11
So I was 51, I sold atomic wings, and I had sucked to try, right, I had spent so much time energy, blood, sweat and tears, building that business, being a good franchisor supporting my franchisees. And, and it was great. My parallel life was yoga and meditation and teaching yoga and running meditation retreats, and a whole other spiritual self. I went to India a bunch of times I taught it Shiva Mukti at home in New York City, and others. And that was sort of like my avocation, which I loved. And atomic was my vocation. And I decided it was really important for me to do something that aligns with my values, and sort of what I want to put out there in the world. And think with atomic, once I’ve proven that I could start a company, when I started, I was a fan of chicken wings, I wound up becoming a vegetarian. And so there was a little bit of a misalignment for me. And I knew I could take it as far as I could take it, not because I didn’t have the skill sets, because I didn’t have the passion anymore, right. So it’s time for me to leave. And I wanted to make sure I do something that added some value in the world connected, sort of how I felt, and based on my personal experiences of feeling really lonely and disconnected. Being a gay man, especially during the AIDS crisis, seeing an incredible amount of loneliness and disconnection and or sexually acting out in ways that wasn’t filling people who was actually making them feel worse. I wanted to create a safe way for people to touch. And so they can be in a different space. So my original thought were specifically gay men that felt so lonely, that loneliness sort of calcified into their being, or maybe meant that accident sexually so much that it was a habit, and they didn’t even like it. And if they had safe touch and a healthy touch, that that could sort of take them to a different space, in realization that something can be different. So that was sort of the meaning behind catalyst originally.

Kara Goldin 18:00
And so you started at your co founder of catalyst. And what did you learn in that startup that you sort of didn’t think about prior to starting

Adam Lippin 18:10
to owning a restaurant chain, or it’s very lonely, in the sense that it’s very hierarchical. And I’m not saying I’m the smartest person in the room, but it’s very hierarchical. And I wanted to, and I’ve done that, and I wanted to have a partner. And I wanted to experience what it was like to run a company with someone. So I started looking into this sort of emerging field that didn’t really exist. And I wound up going to something called the Cuddle Party faculties of facilitation, I saw it like in June, July 4 weekend in Chicago on someone’s floor, learning how to run a Counterparty. And I met my business partner, Madeline, who at the time, was, you know, one of the heads of Counterparty, and she talked about empowerment, and boundaries and consent. And, and all of the stuff that I didn’t know, I came at it from almost more of a spiritual sense, like, I want to connect people having to feel something different. And she had the mechanics of how to actually do it, how to Create Session, how to create safety, what the training could look like, and how to build a community around that. So what I really learned was the power of community, I learned how entrepreneurs into helping people become entrepreneurs. And if you look at sort of like the cuddling business or whatever, they’re all these people in their tools and their energy workers and their empaths. And they, you know, they’re into all of these things, but they don’t have to make the money. General right, though different pet. So to create an opportunity for people with this incredible understanding of the power of touch and presence and unconditional regard for people etc. and allow them to Holy shit I can make $80 or $100 an hour For me comes so natural, and I love and create a community around it. So I learned that right, I really, I learned the power of community. And when someone is really aligned, Mission aligned, and value aligned, you can really take it somewhere.

Kara Goldin 20:16
That’s amazing. And so we’re is CutList. Today,

Adam Lippin 20:19
come this is great. I mean, we’re, we’re killing it. You know, COVID, actually, during COVID, we switched to virtual sessions, which actually turned out to be quite powerful. And now, you know, we’re transitioning back or really, depending on who knows at the minute, right with COVID. But, you know, it’s alive and kicking in, we’re training people and, yeah, so I mean, I’m sort of edging myself out, because I’ve gotten a little bit too busy. But it’s doing really good. And we, you know, we’re referred by therapists and people who are who have had a lot of trauma, or maybe they’re really obese, or they’re disabled, and they don’t get any real touch except clinical touch. It’s been really gratifying. I

Kara Goldin 20:58
love it. You know, it was, it was interesting, I had an opportunity a few weeks ago to spend some time with Richard Branson. And it was, it was fascinating, because one of the conversations that we got into was that I’ve always viewed him so much a part of brands that he’s, you know, everything virgin sort of has his name on it. Yet, I was surprised to learn that the only company that he’s actually been the CEO of was Virgin Records, that was like the the one and other than that, he takes a chairman role, and then does what he really enjoys doing, which is kickstarting companies. And so sometimes he has the idea, sometimes he buys into the idea, but he’s really there in the early moments. And then he brings in a CEO, he always still continues to have a say, and weigh in on things. Maybe not, you know, operating every single day. But it’s fascinating to me now that I go and look at all the companies that he’s built. And he’s had some failures, as he said, Virgin cola. So, you know, coming from the beverage industry, I mean, we sort of commiserated over that a little bit, so but it’s, uh, anyway, I think it’s just, it’s an interesting model. And I feel like that’s, to some extent, you’re doing that Daniel Libecki. From kind. Barr is doing a lot of that right now, too. And Seth Goldman, who was originally on us t and is now doing some other incredible things. So anyway, I just think it’s super, super fascinating. So now let’s talk about your newest venture, which is so incredible, especially so timely for everything that people are talking about right now, especially trying to kind of get back into normalcy after a couple of years of COVID. So let’s talk about hear me, can you talk about loneliness, and how that led to the to really starting hear me.

Adam Lippin 22:59
So according to our current Surgeon General, who is a Surgeon General, under Obama, stated that loneliness is the number one health crisis facing our country, it’s worse than smoking 15 cigarettes a day, and worse than obesity. And it is sort of a determinant of a lot of health issues, both mental health issues and physical issues. And it is very, very destructive. When I looked at my own life, and I had this experience of myself in college, like living in a box within a box, and feeling really closed off, and really afraid to be around people. And I took two directions. One was drugs and alcohol, which led to recovery, which led me to really understand the power of someone being there for someone else. And the other was yoga and meditation, which led me to really have a deep internal experience. But I found that I could hide in that, meaning that it’s very easy to sort of feel superior to other people because I can meditate, you know. And in both of those drugs, and alcohol, and even meditation, I wasn’t making human connection, therefore, it was really healing. And I understood on an intuitive level, the only way to have a connection is to actually have a connection. I couldn’t do downward dogs, I couldn’t do drugs, I had to take a risk and actually be in connection with someone. And basically, I didn’t I hadn’t been fully integrated and fully human, like literally for decades. And when so the sort of the business side of it is with Cutlass. People started to call up and they say I don’t have ad dollars. I’m not near anyone. I just want to talk to someone. So I knew Cutlass was not going to be like the biggest scale of almost, you know, its niche. And it’s a really important it’s, but I when I the light bulb went off and I was like this is something that can really address loneliness at scale. I knew that all of us are valid if we want to be there for somewhere else, and we have a lived experience that lived experience can be valuable. I knew according to the government that you would need for now. million new therapists who begin to address the mental health crisis, I knew that was never going to happen. And if it could happen, there’s access, affordability, and immediacy. I knew that only 3% of psychologists and therapists are black and forgetting about like, rich people, or people who can afford therapy, it’s and the issues of identity, and you know, feeling safe and psychological safety and be able to share what you’re going through. So I knew I could just put it all together, it made logical sense based on my own experience as a young gay person, just knowing that I knew that it’s nothing inherently wrong with me. I knew it didn’t need therapy, even though I don’t know how it asked my parents, I mean, therapy, because, you know, I knew I needed some other people to talk to that were gay that I could just start up to code switch, and I could be myself. And I also know that I’m not that unique. I know that like Buddha, Muhammad Gandhi, these people had original thoughts, right? Most of us don’t. So I knew that if I was feeling this way, other people are feeling that way as well. And so that’s why it’s photo gaming.

Kara Goldin 26:03
So you mentioned listeners, like how do you find these listeners and, you know, train them as well to be able to do this.

Adam Lippin 26:13
So there’s two things. One thing that I learned from catalyst is the power of training and the power of building community. Right. So there’s a I forget his name, but he started something called the Shanti project, which was delivering meals to homebound people with AIDS in San Francisco. And people say how to do this. And it’s not actually your desire to be here is more important than any training we’re going to give you. Right, you’re stepping up to be in the store right now. So I knew there were people out there that wanted to be there. And we know, you know, active and reflective listening and empathetic listening. It’s through peer support, as evidenced based works. So we did a training program around that, and then floodgates opened up. So we’ve trained over about 35,000 volunteer listeners, we now have about 100, Masters of Social Work students that helped oversee our regular, you know, our volunteers, and we have a social worker and the chief medical officer to make sure that, you know, everyone has been supported in the way that and they can support the people that are reaching out to them. We’ve created a here me, certified peer support training academy for our enterprise clients. So we now have large nurse staffing agencies, and we are there to support their nurses. And we hire and train retired nurses, and people who have been in the healthcare profession, because who knows more about what nurses are going through than people who have been that they know what it’s like being in the ICU at three in the morning after working with 12 hour shift. So we find people, we train them up, we make we offer a really rich and robust community. And I guess that’s how we do it.

Kara Goldin 27:52
I love it. So everybody should download the app and hear me first of all, if you’re listening to this right now, and how do you monetize this business?

Adam Lippin 28:02
So for two years, we did it totally free. And there will always be that free component, the concept of anyone, anytime, anywhere, to get something off their chest with someone who can be there to see them to hear them to validate them. We’ve literally a month ago launched our enterprise app, which is a separate app here, me enterprise, you need a code to log in. And we have clients companies that have retained us to offer this experience to their employees. So for example, nurses, right, they’re really stressed out, and so on call 24/7. We have a nurse practitioner, retired nurse that’s gone through our training to be there for this nurse. So we’re monetizing it that way. We’re introducing our insurance product, our voluntary benefit product will be in the marketplace. For this January 2023. We have a consumer premium product that we’re launching with the universities. So that’s how we’re monetizing it.

Kara Goldin 29:03
That’s incredible. What is that? The largest demographic that you’re serving for that app? I’m just curious.

Adam Lippin 29:11
So for the consumer, the free app, the app that everyone knows about now, we’re, it’s it’s about 65%, female to male or people who identify as female or identify as male, the ages, it’s a pretty broad spectrum for 18 to 34. Or though we’re starting to see people into their 50s You know, the adoption has been on the increase from that population. Most people choose, I just want to talk or no topic. The other big topics are relationships LGBTQIA all across the board. But the concept the original conceit was that people are lonely and they want to get something off their chest, and they want to feel safe doing it and the barrier to you know, traditional clinical support is to this too big of a barrier. And it’s not needed for most people.

Kara Goldin 30:02
Yeah, no, that’s so interesting. So I have a lot of people on my podcast talking about big things like starting companies or writing a book or starting a fund. But I think that what you’ve done is really kind of break down all kinds of barriers. And I think everybody who’s listening to this thinks like, Adam just snaps his finger and everything, just, you know, it’s just magic. Everything just turns into, you know, this wonderful, successful thing. But I’d love to hear a story where you faced a challenge in your career that you really thought, Okay, we’re done, I gotta close up shop, I can’t get up, you’re frozen. And then you do get back up. And, and I’d love to just hear one of the stories. So

Adam Lippin 30:51
I could tell you individual times where I thought that was gonna happen. But as I was reflecting on this question, the past couple hours, really the the problem or like the big sort of issue that I faced, especially when I started here, me, right? If I’m going to start a company that’s based on vulnerability, honesty, and people being there for each other, and, you know, like, if you’re talking to a friend, and they’re withholding a bit, you know, and you can’t make a connection, unless there’s honest connection, right? Otherwise, it’s more of a transactional than, you know, a real conversation. So for me, I knew I couldn’t start a company like that, unless I was willing to be completely open, completely vulnerable, and completely myself. And I had compartmentalize my life with atomic wings, some people knew I was gay, and most people didn’t. With CutList, it started to really break that wall. But the world of consent and boundaries and an emotional labor wasn’t really my world. And so I bought into that world with my partner, and she sort of ran that. But hear me it’s is my legacy, right? It’s like, you know, I’m in my mid 50s. I want I’m sort of at that self actualizing space, and like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, and I wanted to really do something that could have a real positive effect. And I like making money as well kidding myself here. And I knew I just knew I couldn’t really do that compartmentalizing myself. It’s one thing selling chicken wings. It’s, you know, but so for me, it was like, Can I be this honest? Can I be in a small, vulnerable? Can I bring my whole self? Because everyone asked me, What’s the origin story? And my origin story? You know, it’s painful for me, right? And so, every time someone asks a version of the question, I have to like, take a deep breath, say, Okay, you signed up for this, you can’t like how you can pass. So I think that’s been the real challenge for me. And I feel really proud that I feel pretty authentic. And I live very honestly. But it’s a process. So every day, I have to re sign up for that I can’t hide anymore, because of what I’m doing. I can’t show up on this interview, without being my whole self, because I can’t really, I’d be selling the shareholders, you know, I’d be selling everyone involved with Hear me out by not being fully real. So I had to really, and I kind of knew that. So for me, like, Can I really sign up for this? Right? Am I really ready to do this? And it took me, you know, in my mid 50s, it didn’t happen overnight.

Kara Goldin 33:22
Well, I think I was just reading an article Brene, Brown had said, you know that she wished that more founders, more CEOs, more people in general, humans were more honest about sort of how they’re feeling about things, because oftentimes people look at those people as influencers, as you know, people that are influential to them. And the more authentic, the more honest, you can be, the better off I think everybody is, and I think, you know, you sharing your story and you telling us about, you know, your challenging times is, is really helping, you know, lots of people. So thank you for doing that for sure. So last question. Where’s the best place to find you on social Adam? You’re so incredible. And where can we follow? Hear me and and, you know, see the progress that that company is making to

Adam Lippin 34:21
thank you so much. So, cheer me dot app is the website, Adam Lipin on LinkedIn, and hear me dot app on LinkedIn. I’m not really on Instagram, even though hear me on Instagram. A little bit on Twitter at Adam live in LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect with me if you’d like

Kara Goldin 34:40
amazing. Well, thank you so much, Adam, and thank you everyone for listening today. Definitely download the HEAR ME app and share it with others to who you think might find it useful. And thank you for downloading the Kara Goldin show. Definitely subscribe. so that you don’t miss out on incredible guests that we have including Adam and definitely give this episode a five star rating if you would, it really helps in the algorithms and find me on all social platforms at Kara Goldin. And if you haven’t already picked up a copy of my book or downloaded in on Audible, it’s called undaunted, overcoming doubts and doubters. And we are here Monday, Wednesday, and now Friday as well. This podcast is now the top 1% in entrepreneurial podcasts in the world. We’re so thrilled that we’ve been able to get these stories from people and get it out there in every category, I should say. So thank you, everyone for listening. And thanks again, Adam, and goodbye for now. Thank you so much. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening