Michael Mogill – Founder & CEO of Crisp

Kara Goldin 0:00
I am unwilling to give up that I will start over from scratch as many times as it takes to get where I want to be, I want to just make sure you will get knocked down. But just make sure you don’t get knocked down knocked out. So your only choice should be go focus on what you can control control control. Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kara Goldin show, though, join me each week for inspiring conversations with some of the world’s greatest leaders. We’ll talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and really some of the most interesting people of our time. Can’t wait to get started. Let’s go. Let’s go. Hi, everyone, it’s Kara Goldin from the Kara Goldin show. And I’m thrilled to have my next guest. Today, we have Michael mogul who is the founder and CEO of crisp and maybe you aren’t familiar with Chris, but you probably have heard of his podcast called The Game Changing attorney. He also is a best selling author of book by the same name. And a little bit more about Chris. But basically, they help other law firms do basically grow. I mean, there’s no other way to look at it. And we’ll talk a little bit more about Michael, how he came up with the idea how he decided that this was a whitespace in the market, and really how he’s grown to be really be the the guy that helps law firms really get their messaging out there and stand apart from the competition to grow into not only extraordinarily fast, but also attract high value clients. We were introduced to each other by John Ruhlin, who is amazing. He was just speaking at one of your conferences as well, Michael and, and just told me how much fun it was and how much energy there was in the room. Gary was also I guess, speaking there, too. So we’ll have to hear a little bit more about that. And certainly what what occurred at that conference, but anyway, thank you so much for being on Michael welcome. So you’re in Atlanta. And you and I chatted a little bit you were saying that you got to try hint and and you’ve got kids that are trying to hit boxes as well. I love it. So, so so great. So talk to me a little bit about you as a as a kid growing up, did you always know that you would be doing what you’re doing today? And and that you could influence and and really help so many people build their businesses?

Michael Mogill 2:42
So the short answer is no. I will say I’ve joked about this before that I was born 10 years too late. Because growing up as a kid, I loved anything, technology, anything tech, and I was just, I was the type of kid where I even learned like HTML, but we didn’t have a computer. So I would like to buy an HTML book. And I tried to just learn it without a computer. And then amazing, like, we’d go to the library, we get these books, and then I just would learn it just kind of trying to work with it. And in the scripting. But, you know, when I was a kid early on, I think one of the first businesses I had was a web design business. So I was 13 years old. And like we’ve had clients like anything from like a tutoring company to a martial arts business, or whatever it is they, you know, they’d come in, like, my mom would let them in the front door, I’d be sitting there developing their websites, but I was I mean, again, I you know, 13. So this is right when the.com boom was taking off. And that’s why I’m saying I, you know, I wish I was born maybe like 10 years earlier, because as all this stuff was happening, I was just so young. And I didn’t realize at the time how I guess how unique that was, if that’s the way to put it as far as like having a you know, a business at that age. But you know, growing up, I think it was just it, I was always gravitating towards something entrepreneurial. And where it caused me a lot of trouble was because it kind of was outside the norms, like growing up as a kid and, you know, going through school, elementary school, middle school, and so on. My way of thinking, I used to think there was something wrong with me, like, just in the sense that, you know, I always looked at what we’re doing in classes and so on. And just I was very interested in thinking perhaps outside the box, which led to my parents being called in a lot because, you know, I grew up immigrant parents, my family and I we so we immigrated from Eastern Europe and came over to the US in 1990. So I came over, it was my brother and I, my parents and my grandparents and I was four years old. So when we got to America, basically, there’s really two paths that you can pursue as the child of immigrants, which is doctor or lawyer. And so but entrepreneur was very much something that I think is not understood, and it took you know, I think it took a while for my parents to come around to that. But you know, it used to bring it all full circle. Yes, I think I was entrepreneurial, but I did not know like that I was that like entrepreneurship, as you know, back then it wasn’t Shark Tank like that wasn’t very much popular. And when I was starting a business, I didn’t really I mean, to me, it wasn’t about business cards or titles. It was really about you, serving somebody and then acquiring that first customer and then acquiring another one. But I didn’t know what I was doing was, you know, I didn’t call myself an entrepreneur or CEO of anything, it was just, you know, scaling, you know, zero to one and then one to two and beyond.

Kara Goldin 5:19
I love it. No, I think that that’s absolutely true. So, talk to us a little bit about CRISPR, or kind of what happened before Chris, how did this idea come about?

Michael Mogill 5:29
Yeah, so this is a, I’ll give you the shortest version of it. So as I mentioned, the two career paths you can take with immigrant parents is, is doctor or lawyer. So I was I was going to school, I was in college, I was pre med, I took the MCAT was going to go to med school, I got into three medical schools, but I spent a lot of time shadowing doctors, over 100 hours, shadowing doctors and surgeons, and just for me, like being entrepreneurial, and in hearing the conversations, and interestingly enough, this will all come full circle later, but just seeing the the things that they would deal with constantly that so much being outside of their hands, all the just all the bureaucracy, the consolidation of it all, it just didn’t sit well with me. So I figured, okay, I’m gonna put in for deferral, I’m not gonna go to medical school, I didn’t have some alternate plan. And so this isn’t, you know, 2008, I was, you know, I graduated with honors, from undergrad got into med school decided not to go, you’re right, as the economy comes crashing down in my parents probably thought that like their entire investment in me and coming over here and starting over just in their careers and not having any money, their son going all the way through school, getting into medical school and deciding not to go, I was probably the greatest disappointment, you can imagine for a child of immigrants. And here I am, I’m washing dishes at a dive bar, that was the only place I can get a job. This is back in 2008. And from there, I went from washing dishes to really washing lab equipment at the CDC, like the Centers for Disease Control. And I had a unique situation where I had a mentor there who was working on like, cdc.gov, their website, and she like worked on kind of the user experience side. So when she went on maternity leave, I was the person who was doing what was called like section 508 compliance, which is, you know, compliance for websites to help those with like, the blind screen readers, that type of stuff. And that allowed me to do a lot of web development work, but I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I knew I didn’t want to go to med school, I wasn’t sure if I’d go back to school and get either, you know, go to graduate school, get an MBA or something else. So I just figured, okay, well, let me just start learning, you know, picking up some skills, and I’d read different books on like, on coding, I’ve learned PHP and JavaScript. And then I started learning about finance. And just, I would do something productive, because, you know, really came down to I didn’t want to sit in traffic, and the commute to get to get to the CDC was, you know, about an hour. So I figured if I could just get there an hour earlier, I’d skip traffic, and then I could, you know, I could study, and then if I stayed late, I’d skip traffic that way, too. So I just wouldn’t, you know, spent a lot of time in the car. So that’s where I did a lot of that learning. And during that time, I bought a camera, because I figured this would be a nice lifetime hobby to learn how to take pictures of just, you know, plants and nature and that type of stuff. And for me, my hobbies always turned into more than hobbies. So I would get obsessed. And like photography, you know, just what, just like a hobbyist activity turned into me taking photos at like different bars and restaurants. And then that turned into a business. So I, you know, I’d finish at the CDC, you know, like six o’clock, and then you know, this business would start at like eight o’clock and go till two in the morning. And then I get home and process the photos. And then you know, and then I go back to work at the CDC. And that eventually turned into a full time business. So it was originally a photography company. And then we expanded to do video as well, which really turned into a company where we were doing all photo and video for probably 90% of the bars and restaurants and hospitality venues in Atlanta. And then after years of that, I basically realized one half of our clients would go out of business every year, like bars and restaurants would turn over to if it rained outside or something like that on a Friday that would significantly impact the turnout to a venue. And then the majority of the industry. Many of them wouldn’t even wake up till noon or one o’clock. And I just figured like with what I was trying to build, we had 90% market share, but that wasn’t saying a whole lot, you know, so I figured, you know, I figured I was sitting at the wrong table. So if I had to build a new business, how can I build it around our ideal clients, which were really our corporate clients, like originally like Coca Cola, or the W hotels, so that was really worth crisp started. And Chris started as a video company. So we were doing corporate video for larger brands. And this is primarily digital, and for the web, which in 2012. When I started everyone told me there was no future in online video that we would not be able to compete with the agencies that everything was still TV based. And again, the social platforms weren’t aren’t you know, they weren’t what they are today and YouTube wasn’t as popularized as it is today. But that’s where we leaned in and from their video, it was video for everyone. all industries we had not have a focus. And then, you know, as we grew, you know, we actually started to focus in on the legal industry, which also happened by accident. And then that, you know, that expanded from video to marketing to then leadership coaching. And, you know, there’s a longer story around all this, but I stumbled into legal completely by accident. But essentially, that was kind of the the progress that was made. And the more we focus, then I think, the more the business grew. So I’m not a lawyer. And yet now we work exclusively with lawyers and law firms. And I can share why, but really, at the, at the root of it all, the expansion of the business really stemmed from, like wanting to better serve our clients. And I realized with video alone, we would help them differentiate and stand out. But then many of them just didn’t know how to get that content out there to their ideal clients, which is where we introduced the marketing. And then once we got their phone ringing, we actually realized that the next problem that was created was that many of them didn’t know how to answer the phones consistently, there wasn’t an intake team in place, there wasn’t a leadership team, the culture wasn’t right, all those things that, you know, you could, of course, you can get calls coming in. But if you can’t actually deliver on that, and scale that business, then it would be very difficult to see a return on any marketing. So that’s where we introduced the leadership coaching side. And that’s when you said, we’re really we just help them all firms grow. I’m glad you said it that way. Because when we say we’re a law firm growth company, people will say, Well, what is that? And we say, Okay, well, I think that really starts at the foundation of getting the leadership team, right. The culture of the organization, the business development, just the foundation, everything operationally. And then you can layer on the marketing and the content. But most, I think most organizations like the start the other way, they like the exciting marketing stuff. And you find that that only gets you to a certain point if the infrastructure isn’t in place to really scale.

Kara Goldin 11:43
So interesting. Well, I think too, first of all, law firms don’t go out of business very often. So different than, than the bar and restaurants. And so it was a good pick from that standpoint. But also I’ve many attorneys around me, friends, family, I’m married to a recovering attorney, as well. And I can say that I feel like, you know, they’re so focused on servicing their clients, but they’re not actually. And it’s all word of mouth and on on the cases that you’re doing, or maybe it doesn’t go to court, but you know, you’re working on the before. So I think there are great stories that are definitely there to be told, and you’ve focusing on one industry and getting that formula, right. And being able to take that into other businesses so that they can learn from people in their industry is just so huge. So I love I love, love, love what you’re doing. So I read that you it took you 21 failed pitches before you reach your your first. Yes. So I’d certainly have my own story around around pitching pitching and nobody would take it. But how do you get back up? How do you like just aside, I maybe I’m doing the wrong pitch the wrong industry? You know, I think I need to go back to bed at this point.

Michael Mogill 13:09
Yeah, so 22 has become somewhat of a lucky number for me, in the sense that it really took you know, it was it was the 22nd pitch that, you know, we received, we got our first client the first Yes. And then Chris really started. Chris was born. But when in when it came to it, when people ask why did it you know, why did you keep going like why not stop? I think a reasonable human being may stop after, I don’t know, five failed attempts or 13, failed attempt or 16. And I remember, I think it was around 16. I called my father because I was trying to start this business and and I was telling them about this consistent failure. And these weren’t when I say failed pitches. These weren’t like an email. And somebody told me no, I mean this, these were full in person meetings, presenting things and just in full preparation, and then being told no. But I remember after 13 or 16 hours or so I called my dad, I was telling him about this, and expecting encouragement. And he actually said I think you should hang it up and go back to you know, go to medical school. And I understand that now being being a parent my own. But I think what kept me going was I just it was almost like there wasn’t a Plan B and when I say that in the sense that a lot of people will say well, if it didn’t work out, like you still had your parents and you could move back home and you could have done all this. And I don’t know if the person saying that understands truly what it is like to have your parents sacrifice everything in their life where they to great careers in another country, come over to America not speak the language. We have no family here, we have no money here and do it all to create opportunity for their children then to do that and they become adults. And then to basically have those adult children asked to move back in with them. I would sooner and I mean this 100% honestly and truthfully, I would have sooner been homeless and slept in the street than asked like my parents to move back in. So I kept going because like for one, it’s just that failure wasn’t an option. And who knows, I don’t know if I would have taken it to like 100 failures or Something I mean, at some point if you run completely out of money, but what really did keep me going was I saw that there was a future in digital video like I, you know, over time I, I guess my confidence is growing and being able to get a sense of where industry trends are going. And I was going to see that although a lot of the people that I was speaking to, didn’t really see that same future that I did, I did see that there was something there. And there was obviously something brewing. And then also just in the in a lot of the small businesses that I would approach, they all had very similar challenges. They had their very saturated competitive markets, they were struggling to stand out and differentiate, they couldn’t compete, they didn’t have the same amount of resources as the large players in their market. So they couldn’t do things like TV and radio and billboards. And yet they care deeply about, you know, serving their clients. So how are they to stand out and differentiate, and I saw this lower barrier to entry, particularly on social media, and for them to be able to convey their story and be able to articulate here’s why we do what we do, not just here’s the services we offer, but to be able to tell that to someone that could really help to give them a competitive advantage where there weren’t many for them. So that’s what kept me pressing forward, I think it’s just this true belief is that there’s something there. And then I also have this, I mean, this has been a lifetime, perhaps fear of mine, I have seen a lot of people that will, they will take a hard punch and not get back up. And I worry about that. So I think that it’s it’s only really failure when you quit. And it’s if you keep going, it’s like that next iteration, that next iteration, I worry for myself, what would happen if I actually would have given up so that’s what that’s what kept me going to because if I would have given up, well, then this whole entrepreneurial dream ends, and maybe I do go back to school, and then maybe I do end up doing something that may not be in alignment with either my purpose or what I really enjoy doing. And you know, and if I couldn’t make that work, would I just spend the rest of my life resenting, you know, not giving it a full shot?

Kara Goldin 16:49
I think in many ways, what you described too, is actually having parents who, you know, had their own challenges, right. And you seeing that even though your parents want a better life for you, clearly and don’t want to see you fail, I think you seeing that they were able to push through and do something pretty large. I always think that when we go through challenges, you know, whether it’s immigrating to a new country or go through challenging times, I mean, kids are sponges, right? They pick up on that. I don’t think it’s such a bad thing either because it teaches you resilience, it teaches you perseverance, and the ability to you know, keep pushing forward. I worry more for, you know, my kids when things aren’t going wrong, right, that when things are going to be challenging for them, are they going to be equipped, like I was to be able to see, you know, challenging times. So I love that story. For sure. This podcast is sponsored by better help online therapy. 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Michael Mogill 23:41
So this is kind of a testament to my evolution, what I believe as a human being and there’s been a great deal of evolution from the very beginning. And this is a thing I do not understand in karate even love your thoughts on this, I do not understand how anyone can achieve any level of success, and especially the people who Bootstrap and really start from, you know, some ground zero. And then after having achieved that success can have any degree of just ego, I don’t get it. And I say this because it is such a humbling process that you must go through with just you know, in, in building a business and there’s so much adversity, there’s so much failure that any ego you come in with, I think, you know, I like to believe you have that beaten out of you. So when when you mentioned, he’s saying like it’s better to make progress and to be right. It really does stem from the fact of what’s really the most important thing. And I used to be of the belief that it had to be me solving every problem and I had to be the guy or whatever it is. And that really I think that led to a lot of what it slowed me down to it created a lot of needless suffering and me kind of banging my head against the wall thinking that I had to be the expert of things that were not my strengths. today. It’s the complete opposite. I’m asking questions. I’ve got amazing people around me I’m listening to them. And it’s it’s less about my way and more about what’s what’s going to help to move us forward To be honest, accurate, I don’t even care if I’m right or wrong, I just care that we’re, that we’re growing and you know, we’re better serving our clients and that the team is more successful. So a lot of that is, you know, a lot of people that have the ego, I think it creates blind spots. And when when you are so guarded, saying, Well, I have to be right, you don’t have the right type of I think type conversations in an organization, there’s not candids that’s taking place, or there’s always like the meetings after meetings where you’ll have a meeting discussing an item, for example. And then people go on walks. And that’s really the where the real conversations are taking place. So I’ve tried to set this example and I do it through almost like a series of consistent cautionary tales, where I’m sharing all my, you know, my failures and mistakes and bad decisions with our, you know, with our team and with our leaders, to to hopefully just encourage them to that being open. And being vulnerable is really great for a team and great for our culture. And if we can prioritize almost like a bias towards action, and just making progress of what’s in the best interest, I always look at like through three things like what’s in the best interest of our team, our clients, and then of crisp, and if it checks the box on all three, then that’s, that’s the right thing to do. And if it doesn’t check the box on one of those, then you know that it’s probably not the right thing to do. But it’s less about me and me being right and more about okay, what is the path forward?

Kara Goldin 26:19
Yeah, totally, totally agree. So, one of the things that or I should say, you’ve got a book, and you’ve also got a podcast, I was on your podcast the other day, the game changing attorney, and I love that you focus on storytelling, and you know, content creation, I think so many times people, especially people who are maybe in more professional kind of roles, like attorneys or doctors, but also CEOs, like they don’t really pay attention to they think social medias about pretty pictures. And I don’t know, like likes and followers, I don’t know what people, some people think. But they don’t really think of it as a place to kind of share what you are good at, what you represent what you, you know, some of your successes and how it’s relevant. And I think through stories, that’s how we actually help people, you know, build some sort of connection to why it’s important to listen or read or whatever it is. So can you share a little bit more about that, and what you’ve seen around content creation?

Michael Mogill 27:32
Yeah. And I think, you know, oftentimes, when I would talk about the importance of storytelling and the emotional connection that results, sometimes, people who have not seen this in play, they kind of roll their eyes, I think this is a cute thing to talk about articulating your why, but it really is a great business decision to and the reason being is that, especially in spaces where people offer similar services, or similar products, those stories are not just about the services you offer, but the reason why you do what you do, that’s how these connections are formed. And those formed connections, I mean, those those actually become the ones that become the followers, your audience, and then you know, perhaps eventually, your, your buyers, and then your advocates and so on. And I realized that if you do not give somebody a reason to care about you or your brand, then they’ll gravitate towards the brands that do so it’s very, very important to, you know, for example, we work with, with lawyers and law firms, and people always ask me, they’re like, oh, that’s most do not have a very great perception of lawyers and law firms. And I think this is because of the exact opposite effect that most legal advertising is not story driven, it’s kind of like, you know, interact, get a check, or a call me now, or somebody standing on top of a semi truck. It that a lot of the TV advertising, I think is created almost this level of distrust towards lawyers, that’s very different from like, you know, the way people would approach a doctor, right? Like, if a doctor were to tell you something and say, Okay, that’s there’s a level of warmth and trust there. They may not feel that way about lawyers to this, it will why why do you, you know, why do you help lawyers and law firms? And I think people really consider well, who are the people that they help, because when you look at like most lawyers and law firms, they’re helping people that may not have access to justice, they’re helping people that have our reach, usually reaching out to them on perhaps one of the worst days of their lives. Someone has been injured, whether it’s them or someone in their family, and they’re not able to cover the medical bills, or for whatever reason, or it’s a dangerous or defective drug. Like you do need some lawyers for society, I think it helps to maintain a level of checks and balances on corporations and then also to help those in need so. So for that reason, you know, when we do work with our clients, each of them has a reason why they became an attorney. Like that’s really where we start like, why this and you know, you’re smart, you could have done something else, you could have become an accountant, you could have been something else, like, why did you become a lawyer? And it’s interesting, because everyone has a very different reason. And it may have been because they grew up and they didn’t like bullies, or they saw some level of injustice that they or their family experienced. And they knew that when they grew up, they want to drive that change or something in their community and they wanted to be able to come back in and better serve that community, you know, for whatever reason, but then when you start to communicate and convey those stories now, people form these bonds and connections. And we also I mean, we see this play out and you know, and other things, not just advertising. Like if you watch a movie like The Shawshank Redemption, like everybody remembers like that great story. Or if you’re, you know, if you’re a fan of, you know, anything in sports, whenever they’re doing like those, almost like those documentaries leading up to the event, whether it’s like a boxing match, or some other sporting event, to, you know, to athletes that you did not even know or care anything about before you know it now you’re like, you’re rooting for one of them. And like, how did that happen? And it’s really because they tell you the story of like, okay, well, now you see what this person’s family is like, what are their motivations, what drives them, why they do what they do. And that creates a level of just authenticity and relatability, that you don’t just get when you’re just saying, hire me now, or reach out for a consultation. So I am of the belief that people really buy what you know why you do more importantly, than just what you do. And when I used to, when I used to speak in the early days, I didn’t, you know, want to share my story, because I felt that, you know, I didn’t want anyone to feel sorry for me, I didn’t want to say, you know, hey, I’m an immigrant, and I grew up poor, and all these different things. But I realized that when I did share that people would come up to me afterwards after those presentations, and they, you know, they, they would tell me, they’re also an immigrant. And they also had a similar upbringing, and they you know, that they were able to connect with me. So I think in the absence of telling those stories, you’re kind of missing out on a lot of those connections, too. So it really just comes down to how can you authentically convey here’s who you are, why you do what you do. And I don’t really believe that, like, people truly will believe you, unless they know the story behind it.

Kara Goldin 31:38
Yeah, no, I totally agree. Well, I loved hearing that at your last conference. I mean, you had people who weren’t lawyers, obviously, your audience, I’m assuming is mostly attorneys. But why do you invite people and to speak, who are not attorneys? I mean, what what is kind of the strategy and thinking behind that? Because I think it’s, it’s a good one.

Michael Mogill 32:02
Yeah, I mean, so. So for one, I mean, I’m not a lawyer. And that’s interesting, because in our industry, we’re the largest law firm, growth company. And no one here is a lawyer, it the reality of it is, is that we’re not teaching, especially at our conferences, and what we do a crisp are not teaching them how to practice law, I think the law schools for that. And when they’re when they’re coming in, we assume that you, you’re a great lawyer, like you care about your clients, it’s everything surrounding that. So it’s like the business side of the practice, and everything from customer service and client experience, to how to really grow as a leader to how to build a great team and hire and train and develop people to just building out a great culture and marketing and so on. So I’ve always felt that it’s important to bring in perspectives from other industries. So and this is across the board. So for example, you mentioned Gary Vaynerchuk, Gary comes in, and he’s talking about marketing, and of course, now crypto and NF T’s. And then we’ll have you know, another speaker coming in, like sai Wakeman. And she spoke about just culture overall. And then you got Malcolm Gladwell, and I think when you can draw inspiration from those that come from other backgrounds and other industries, I’ve always said, because over the years, we’ve sometimes brought in speakers that not everybody loved, right, they that they felt they were controversial in some way. And I I’ve always said I say this, at the start of every conference, that if you’re only willing to listen to people that you like, and you agree with in your learning is going to be limited. Okay, so just if you can embrace various perspectives about different issues, I mean, who better to learn, just as an example from, you know, about winning than Tim Grover, who had the last conference was Michael Jordan’s coach and Kobe Bryant’s coach. And you know, for example, who better to learn about negotiation than Chris Voss, the FBI hostage negotiator. So it’s your being able to do that, I think is really unique. And then also our conference is a business conference, it’s a business and leadership conference. And and ultimately, I look at who are are the the right thought leaders in those spaces, who the people that have the right experience, and it’s applicable. I mean, to me, businesses business, whether you’re running a law firm, or a dental practice, or whatever it is, I think the the core elements of leading a team and creating a great culture, and hiring and so on are pretty unanimous across the board across different, you know, different types of industries. But you know, what’s made our special is that we do keep it of course, focus to the legal industry, and there’s different applications of that, but we invite everyone, yes, it’s, it’s a, it’s a law firm growth conference. But when you when you look at some of the speakers that we’ve had, you know, it’s really about who’s going to be the best insights from marketing, from leadership from culture, you know, all across the board. And our aim is to make it a transformational two day experience.

Kara Goldin 34:36
I love it. Well, I I totally agree. I talk a lot about when I really want to learn something. I actually go outside of what I know, outside of my industry, so I’m rarely attending, for example, beverage conferences, or when I was in the tech industry, I was more likely to, you know, literally, look through what Some of my friends were doing, what conferences they were going to. And if I saw a speaker that I had never heard speak or somebody that was interesting, I mean, it was enough of a poll for me to go. And I found that just by going and listening to people outside of my industry, that’s where I could, you know, learn that much more kind of whiteboard vision, just about different things. And one of the things that we did at hint back in 2012, was take what I already had knowledge of direct to consumer, and bring that in to an industry that wasn’t viewing direct to consumer as an option. So even today, I mean, most most beverage executives are saying, oh, yeah, we’re on Amazon. And when I talked to people about the difference between being on Amazon and being having your own website, and within seven years, we had over a million consumers who were buying on drinkin calm, and, and, you know, all of those things really came from me going outside of my comfort zone, to be able to listen to people how they grew things. So I totally agree with what you’re saying. And frankly, most of the places where I’m speaking also today, our two groups of people that are not in the beverage industry, that are not female founders and entrepreneurs, people always look at, you know, what the heck are you doing speaking to a bunch of CFOs or law firms or medical profession? Anyway, I just find it really, really interesting because I think that that’s more and more what people are doing when they’re trying to figure out who they should have come speak at conferences to so I really, really appreciated that. And so tell me a little bit and and the listeners about where they can find out more about crisp and also more about you. Sure,

Michael Mogill 36:53
sure. So a great starting point. I always think it’s like the book in the podcast and that’s game changing attorney calm. Of course, there’s our website and that’s just crisp.co So we’ve undergone a rebrand it’s kind of interesting go from video to marketing to coaching and that you just, you know, as the company has grown and scaled over the years, it’s almost like this change in identity of people that wants newest as this video company, this legal video company in this marketing company. And now see us is really this you know, this small firm growth company where it’s training and education and you know, it’s a it’s a very different type of business. So and then I’ve also this is weird for me, I’m still wrapping my head around this in terms of my comfort level but but it the team finally pushed me to do it a couple years ago. I also have a website, Michael mogul calm. And there’s all sorts of things like blogs and blog articles. And so the podcasts are there too. So that’s that’s another way

Kara Goldin 37:49
really inspiring stuff too. So I went to your website, and it was really, really great. So thank you so much, Michael. And thank you everybody for listening. And if you haven’t subscribed to the Kara Goldin podcast, please do so. And we’re here every Monday and Wednesday with amazing, amazing inspiring stories and leadership tips and journeys, just like Michaels so definitely check in with us. Give five stars to this episode on Apple podcasts or Spotify. And you can follow me as well on all social channels at Kara Goldin with an AI. And finally, if you haven’t picked up a copy of my book on daunted, sharing a little bit more about me and the story of building hint, please do so. And of course, pick up a case of your favorite can’t flavor. I’ve got it right here, the Blackberry, and hope you all have a great week. Thanks, everyone. Thanks again, Michael. Thank you. Before we sign off, I want to talk to you about fear. People like to talk about fearless leaders. But achieving big goals isn’t about fearlessness. Successful leaders recognize their fears and decide to deal with them head on in order to move forward. This is where my new book undaunted comes in. This book is designed for anyone who wants to succeed in the face of fear, overcome doubts and live a little undaunted. Order your copy today at undaunted, the book.com and learn how to look your doubts and doubters in the eye and achieve your dreams. For a limited time. You’ll also receive a free case of hint water. Do you have a question for me or want to nominate an innovator to spotlight send me a tweet at Kara Goldin and let me know. And if you liked what you heard, please leave me a review on Apple podcasts. You can also follow along with me on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn at Kara Goldin. Thanks for listening